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So you're saying that you would punk on Mathilde. The scrub. :V
I know this isn't what you were suggesting, but to head anyone else off, this would not mean you would be able to turn Egrimm into a power stone farmer. Creating power stones is a tedious and perpetually in-demand process that attracts people that seek a boring, predictable, and safe job. Egrimm is not such a person.
Off the top of my head I wouldn't even know what to do with Hysh Power Stones. I'd have suggested it as a good skill for two engaged and talented Enchanters to learn together, for the purpose of one secret and scandalous research project and whatever he himself wants to do with it instead of spending CF.

If somewhere down the tech tree we actually want more, at the very least we shouldn't demand that he ever makes more Power Stones than Mathilde herself and only for something that's actually worth doing.
The potential benefit would be that mathilde as a magic user would have a different perspective that might help him translate insights from that language into a form more easily communicable to other project members.
It's definitely useful. I'm just not sure if it is "must happen before the foundation" useful.
A big reason for wanting to do Drakenhof is this:

I want to get it done as soon as possible not to plump up her collection, but because it's the largest repository of dark lore on the continent and letting it sit there for six more months than we have to is irresponsible. I want to get the library up and running too, but letting a giant library of necromantic lore sit around in an unsecure location isn't better than opening up KAU six months later when it comes to making the world better.

Is there any action we can drop to do both those library actions this turn?

If six months is irresponsible, what about 11 years? And nothing specific even happened last turn to make it more urgent. If a player hadn't thought of it at some point during discussion in between turn 37 scenes we wouldn't even be talking about it.

Letting the books lie for 11.5 years won't make such a difference. At worst the DC of whatever roll Boney uses to see if it's already been looted increases by less than 5%.
so it saves us an AP to just get it done right now instead.
I get most of your arguments. But not this one. How does spending an AP on it now save us an AP? Isn't the net the same?

Anyway, I still continue to see the merits of both options. If we want to recruit Hedgewise it just makes more sense to give them a chance to add to the foundation than not. And recruiting them without the Father would just be silly.

On the flip side we don't know if they actually have anything of worth to contribute and two times +20 somewhere might just make all the difference. And it's not just to make Mathilde personally seem more knowledgeable. It might also happen to shake loose an important memory of one of the participants or distract from a clash of personality that would have led to a fight.

All else being equal I'll probably vote for the Father. But "all else being equal" seems like it will be a high bar this time around.

[-] Plan two houses (gambler)
-[-] One Overwork Action
-[-] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[-] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[-] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
--[-] COIN: The Gambler
-[-] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Miriel)
-[-] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[-] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[-] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[-] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[-] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)


[-] Plan two houses (father)
-[-] One Overwork Action
-[-] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[-] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[-] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
--[-] COIN: The Father
-[-] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Miriel)
-[-] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[-] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[-] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[-] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[-] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)
Recruiting House Miriel is not something I am in any way opposed to, even if I don't think they are as important to have early as House Tindomiel. So the basic idea behind your plans is something I would vote for.

That said, I don't get why we would want to spend the Gambler on Tindomiel. They don't seem like such a tough nut to crack.

And using the Father without attempting the Haléthans just seems plain weird and not comprehensible.
If we do not do Book mine option these turn we will not do it next turn. Next turn will be use taking follow up action for the waystone and spending AP actions paying for recruitment. Or spending AP recruiting. That means mini adventures. I do not see people wanting to vote for book mine if we are already going to have mini adventures.
That sounds like fear mongering to me. Not only have we done two adventures in a row before (and I wouldn't be opposed to it as long as there's a gap between those two adventures and the next two), but we've also had multiple recruitment repayments in the past that didn't even cost AP, let alone trigger a mini-adventure.
If spending CF to get someone else to study it isn't possible, then I'd prefer to give it away for rep or simply sell it. Our backlog is too big and the rep/gold would be better than something we want to do but won't actually ever get around to doing. (Ghyran Nut excepted.)
I'll fite you IRL before I let you throw away the Moon Shrine. :mob:
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP

Just want to read more of the Ranald plotline tbh, been months. And mathymancer and the others have been living rent-free in my head.

What's the argument causing the momentum from book mining from? First instinct is to just call out novelty bias, but I haven't been keeping track of the thread much.
 
I'll fite you IRL before I let you throw away the Moon Shrine. :mob:
You live on Jupiter. I'm untouchable. :cool:

What's the argument causing the momentum from book mining from? First instinct is to just call out novelty bias, but I haven't been keeping track of the thread much.
One of the largest collections of dark lore on the continent is laying under a pile of rubble where any necromancer with an army can get it, if possibly not undetected. On top of the danger, the amount of dark lore is valuable in its own right, but that's not all. Vampires tend to loot everything not nailed down where they go and that includes libraries, so Drakenhof and the Black Library underneath it probably have a bunch of non-necromancy books looted from multiple Empire libraries. On top of all this, because the books no longer belong to anyone, we can loot them all without needing scribes or making some kind of arrangement with a library.

EDIT: There's probably more than just books in/under Drakenhof too. That'd be up for grabs as well.
 
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If we do not do Book mine option these turn we will not do it next turn. Next turn will be use taking follow up action for the waystone and spending AP actions paying for recruitment. Or spending AP recruiting. That means mini adventures. I do not see people wanting to vote for book mine if we are already going to have mini adventures.
I agree with Rafin that this is fear-mongering. On my part I want the library up and running: hence getting the staff now. Once that is done I am very happy to go book mining.
I also think that it is better to do it in this order for the library's sake since it reduces the chance of the library being primarily known for hosting dangerous books.
 
I also think that it is better to do it in this order for the library's sake since it reduces the chance of the library being primarily known for hosting dangerous books.
We aren't going to be advertising that we hold the sum total of Castle Drakenhof's necromantic lore in our library. Our library will be primarily known for being a big public dwarf-built library with top-tier book arrangement no matter what.
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP

Just want to read more of the Ranald plotline tbh, been months. And mathymancer and the others have been living rent-free in my head.

What's the argument causing the momentum from book mining from? First instinct is to just call out novelty bias, but I haven't been keeping track of the thread much.
I believe that in between updates i.e. thread madness, someone pointed out that the Drakenhoff library had been left untouched since we razed Drackenhoff to the ground. Considering the nature of the past owners of said library, there is value in securing those books and placing them under Mathilde (who is but one person) in a secure Dwarf-Karak is not a bad way of going about it. This has been confirmed by Boney. The arguments primarily are around whether we should do so immediately or if we can delay it for a few months.
 
One of the largest collections of dark lore on the continent is laying under a pile of rubble where any necromancer with an army can get it, if possibly not undetected. On top of the danger, the amount of dark lore is valuable in its own right, but that's not all. Vampires tend to loot everything not nailed down where they go and that includes libraries, so Drakenhof and the Black Library underneath it probably have a bunch of non-necromancy books looted from multiple Empire libraries. On top of all this, because the books no longer belong to anyone, we can loot them all without needing scribes or making some kind of arrangement with a library.
Oh, didn't expect that. So this is a situation to vote what you want to read?

No urgency or direct connection to a current situation? Or is something expected to happen since Boney forgot that it exists and has an obligation to do something with it?

I mean, tbf IC it would be unlikely that no one has succeeded yet let alone tried.
 
Oh, didn't expect that. So this is a situation to vote what you want to read?

No urgency or direct connection to a current situation? Or is something expected to happen since Boney forgot that it exists and has an obligation to do something with it?

I mean, tbf IC it would be unlikely that no one has succeeded yet let alone tried.
There isn't an imminent danger we know about, but the longer we leave it alone, the more the loot inside will degrade and that someone will get the loot before we can.

IC, the loot's buried beneath a giant pile of rubble and there's not many people with the means to dig it out. It's entirely possible no one's gotten to it yet.
 
We aren't going to be advertising that we hold the sum total of Castle Drakenhof's necromantic lore in our library. Our library will be primarily known for being a big public dwarf-built library with top-tier book arrangement no matter what.
I am aware of that. I am also aware the mining for books in the ruins of Castle Drakenhof and the subsequent transport of them to K8P is not necessarily something we can keep a secret, although it is something we should attempt to do.
My concern is that if we fail, then people's first bit of knowledge about the library will have to do with Drakenhof, which can create a poor first impression.
By opening the library first, we have more guaranteed control over that important first impression.

Oh, didn't expect that. So this is a situation to vote what you want to read?

No urgency or direct connection to a current situation? Or is something expected to happen since Boney forgot that it exists and has an obligation to do something with it?

I mean, tbf IC it would be unlikely that no one has succeeded yet let alone tried.
For some it is a matter of urgency - the less time the books are exposed the better - for others, who view the risk as low, it is more what we want to read/where we want the library to go.
Edit: Mathilde'd by Andres who did a better summation.
 
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For a similar reason, is replacing the Candle of Cleansing Radiance also disallowed or would it be permitted on account of the different circumstances under which we got it (Skryre chemical warfare)?

That would be fine, as long as it's understood that whatever's replacing it would be actually replacing it, instead of people thinking Mathilde will hot-swap inventory based on circumstance.
 
My concern is that if we fail, then people's first bit of knowledge about the library will have to do with Drakenhof, which can create a poor first impression.
Who's "people"? Roswita? Sure we'd tell her what we're doing, but she's not going to blab about the project. The dwarves? Those guys are very well known for keeping their mouth shut about stuff. The Colleges? Why would they go around telling everyone about all the evil books we now have. At the moment, I'm frustrated by how vague the target of your concern is, as well as by the vagueness of these consequences you fear.
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
Not a bad plan, but I still regard the Hedgewise as not useful for the project. Also if you are going to disregard WEBMAT then actually disregard it, don't be deliberately inefficient about it.

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)
Better than the other version, but still inefficient.

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT with Book Mine
I really don't want yet another adventure interlude just now. We picked Waystones over Loremaster or Bodyguard because we wanted to do something meaningful, not just bounce from one side quest to the next.

[X] Plan: No Recruitment
No complaints.
[X] Plan: No Recruitment
 
Four more plans for those that like the top two plans but don't want to give the Sunken Palace to the Hochlander. The first two delay the question and the latter two settle it by going for the other solution.

[] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, No HQ
-[] One Overwork Action
-[] COIN: The Father
-[] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[] Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)


Edit: Whoops. That plan already exists.

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Eonir trade)

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, No HQ (Fatherless)
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut
--[X] With Panoramia
-[X] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[X] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[X] Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Ninja Village
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] COIN: The Father
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in your fief.
-[X] Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Ninja Village (Fatherless)
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut
--[X] With Panoramia
-[X] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in your fief.
-[X] Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)

And Approvals for all plans competing with plans I like less than them:

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
[X] Father and Foundations
[X] Father and Foundations Deluxe

Also there seems to be a bug where various votes aren't correctly added to their plans. No idea why.

Edit: Two more plans.

[X] Plan Regard WEBMAT, AV Enchantment, No HQ
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] COIN: The Father
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] WEB-MAT Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantments with Egrimm.
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation: Windsoak mushrooms book.
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: The Black Orc Warboss' worship of Only Gork, and what you saw of the Rogue Idol ritual.

[X] Plan Regard WEBMAT, AV Enchantment, Ninja Village
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] COIN: The Father
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] WEB-MAT Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantments with Egrimm.
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation: Windsoak mushrooms book.
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in your fief.
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: The Black Orc Warboss' worship of Only Gork, and what you saw of the Rogue Idol ritual.

[X] Plan for Briefvoice's Consideration
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] WEB-MAT: Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantments with Egrimm.
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation: Windsoak mushrooms book.
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut
--[X] With Panoramia
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in your fief.
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: The Black Orc Warboss' worship of Only Gork, and what you saw of the Rogue Idol ritual.
 
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Oh, didn't expect that. So this is a situation to vote what you want to read?

No urgency or direct connection to a current situation? Or is something expected to happen since Boney forgot that it exists and has an obligation to do something with it?

I mean, tbf IC it would be unlikely that no one has succeeded yet let alone tried.
Yes. I don't think anyone is outright against the idea of mining Drakenhof for books. The main arguments against it is either the IC reasoning of wanting to open the KAU Library asap or wanting to be known for specific useful books before shipping in Drakenhof stuff or the OOC reasoning that it sounds like an awesome adventure but some of us are burned out when it comes to awesome adventures and want at least one or two uninterrupted normal turns. I think I am one of the most vocal champions of the OOC reason.
You live on Jupiter. I'm untouchable. :cool:
I live near Jupiter. I need much less escape velocity to reach you than you think. And I know exactly where to find Sufficient Velocity.
 
Who's "people"? Roswita? Sure we'd tell her what we're doing, but she's not going to blab about the project. The dwarves? Those guys are very well known for keeping their mouth shut about stuff. The Colleges? Why would they go around telling everyone about all the evil books we now have. At the moment, I'm frustrated by how vague the target of your concern is, as well as by the vagueness of these consequences you fear.
Sylvanian peasants for one. But you are right that my concern is rather nebulous. That said my primary reason for not boring book mining is that I want to open the library asap. The first-impression concern was just an extra, and mainly written as a counterpoint to concerns that we have to book mine immediately.
 
Not using the Gambler on the most imporatant action in the waystone project seems completely insane to me.
The action is called Lay the foundations, a complicated explanation isn't needed to say that anything built with faulty foundations falls apart.
 
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@Boney

1. Do the We use our library?
2. What's the range of Animus Imprisoned and how is it functionally different from Life's End bar the latter's willpower test? At the moment it reads like a reliable instant kill spell if successfully cast.
3. Can Mathilde see souls?
4. Can Deathsight see the souls of living people?
5. Does casting Power of Truth on yourself put Hysh in your brain?
6. Is there any benefit to Wings of the Falcon over Wings of Heaven given the greater difficulty?
 
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@Jyn Ryvia

In your plan "Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP, AV Enchantment" you replaced the Power Stone experiment with a personal action of experimenting with AV enchantment. Is there a reason that you didn't make that a WEB-MAT action with Egrimm instead? It would both introduce him to AV, increase our chances of one of the two finding some way to integrate it (Egrimm is a great enchanter), be a good way to convince him to learn Power Stone creation with us in a near future turn and, of course, give us another free WEB-MAT action this turn. With that change I'd vote for your plan.


In fact I'll add a slightly altered version of that proposal to my plans above. I'll still approval yours if you change just that and add whatever WEB-MAT action you prefer.

[] Plan Regard WEBMAT, AV Enchantment, No HQ
-[] One Overwork Action
-[] COIN: The Father
-[] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[] WEB-MAT Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantments with Egrimm.
-[] MAX: Receive dictation: Windsoak mushrooms book.
-[] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[] SERENITY: The Black Orc Warboss' worship of Only Gork, and what you saw of the Rogue Idol ritual.
 
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Do we actually want the Drakenhof books for reading material or just to sequester any dark stuff? Because if it's the latter, we can pay AV to send Thorek have fun with lava.
 
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