I agree, we should not have a photo of our friend without his knowledge and he should not have the right to tell us we do not have the right to photograph serial killers for the purposes of stopping them, just because his was the first photo we took by accident. Of the two facts I think the latter matter is more grave.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I agree, we should not have a photo of our friend without his knowledge and he should not have the right to tell us we do not have the right to photograph serial killers for the purposes of stopping them, just because his was the first photo we took by accident. Of the two facts I think the latter matter is more grave.
Taking this a step back, do people think that Mathilde's advanced Windsight and Avatar senses are an invasive transgression against the gods?
What she's doing with AV and the recording crystals just seems to be a way of significantly accelerating something she can already do with the divine energy of gods she's familiar enough with like Ranald, Mork, and Gork.
If this is knowledge that Mathilde should forswear, do we also somehow need to try to blind her Avatar sense? Otherwise, over the course of her hopefully very long life, she'll become familiar with more a more gods and be able to identify them like this anyway, with it without AV based recordings.
What she's doing with AV and the recording crystals just seems to be a way of significantly accelerating something she can already do with the divine energy of gods she's familiar enough with like Ranald, Mork, and Gork.
If this is knowledge that Mathilde should forswear, do we also somehow need to try to blind her Avatar sense? Otherwise, over the course of her hopefully very long life, she'll become familiar with more a more gods and be able to identify them like this anyway, with it without AV based recordings.
Avatar is not creating a recording, it is having eyes in your head and a memory for faces, you are not reproducing something in an external medium.
In terms of learning the gods' secrets, how is that any different? Mathilde would still be able to distinguish between gods and tell if one god was actually another in a fake moustache.
I don't see how it being recorded in a Crystal infused with Aethyric energy is different to it being recorded in a brain infused with Aethyric energy in terms of that capability and knowledge being a problem.
The issue here was about learning the gods' secrets. That's an issue regardless if we learn them using Avatar to learn about their energy signatures or AV + recording crystal. The AV method is just faster.
The recording crystals can pretty much only be read by Mathilde and the handful of elven archmages in the Old World.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
You know there's a public interest exemption carved out explicitly for the public good when it comes to things like this for people of a certain status in real life and whilst there's a good deal of negatives that come from this it's for a damn good reason. The gods very clearly smash through the barrier at which they have ANY right to total privacy in public spaces no matter how much they might prefer.
If people want to continue with the photograph analogy then the gods have no right to privacy in publics spaces in exactly the same way.
It is different in the sense that a photo is different from a memory, you cannot share a memory with others with perfect fidelity, you can share a photo again and again and again. We can of course choose not to share the crystal of Ranald and should, but the very fact that it is our choice and not his is troubling.... just you know, a lot less than the serial killers running around with fake mustaches killing people on mass.
I'm pretty sure there's memory sharing/theft magic in Warhammer, actually, although I can't remember where.
I would assume that we would lose at least 1-2 skill points in piety.
Like, not even as a faith voter, just as the result of choicing to hid something from our god: that is by definition a non-piety action.
Keep in mind that is part of modern life and modern morality where it would be the status quo for the right to likeness to be waved for say politicians, this is not the status quo of warhammer when it comes to gods. We are the inventor of the first camera, the gods have no expectation of being imaged and thus it does not come with the implied consent of someone becoming a public figure IRL.
A follow on to what I was saying before, nothing on the update seems to say to me that the issue is creating records, it's the knowledge that those recordings allow us to gain that's suggested as the problem., and we can gain that knowledge of which god is actually another in a false moustache with Avatar and significant exposure to a god just as well as with AV+Recording crystals.
So would Faith voters have an issue with our possession of the Avatar Trait. It allows us to learn things about the gods that the gods might not want us to know in exactly the same way as the Truth research would, if slower.
Spreading the knowledge is different to learning it in the first placed and the issue Mathilde seemed to expect wasn't around spreading it, it was learning the gods' secrets in the first place.
The issue here isn't that we're the inventor to the first camera, I think, it's that we're the possessor of the first sensors for perceiving divine energy in the hands of a human researcher rather than a devotee. The recording aspect seems like a secondary issue.
So would Faith voters have an issue with our possession of the Avatar Trait. It allows us to learn things about the gods that the gods might not want us to know in exactly the same way as the Truth research would, if slower.
Spreading the knowledge is different to learning it in the first placed and the issue Mathilde seemed to expect wasn't around spreading it, it was learning the gods' secrets in the first place.
The issue here isn't that we're the inventor to the first camera, I think, it's that we're the possessor of the first sensors for perceiving divine energy in the hands of a human researcher rather than a devotee. The recording aspect seems like a secondary issue.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Photographs don't exist in warhammer either yet people are happy to use them in analogy so I'm pointing out the fact that the analogy is utterly flawed because the gods for one thing aren't really your friend and in a photograph analogy they map more closely to people like prime ministers, presidents and kings whom have no expectation or right to privacy in public spaces and for whom photographs are taken all the time with no issue.
The idea is that the gods have the base expectation of having their likeness be private and by making that likeness into something which can be shared and reproduced we are transgressing against the one imaged (which of coulrse does not matter for serial killers). I would argue that Ranald is like Mathilde''s friend, one who also happens to be 'king'.
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Codex
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I know anyone with an account can check for themselves, but people might not be checking the tally so I feel the need to do this
There is a two vote difference. If you haven't voted yet and you're interested in your desired outcome winning, this is your chance to either close the gap or widen it.
There is a two vote difference. If you haven't voted yet and you're interested in your desired outcome winning, this is your chance to either close the gap or widen it.
It's also not too late for a surprise win from "Prudence" either—stranger things have happened.
Funny I do not recall us becoming the Avatar of Mork... which is about as likely as prudence winning at this point.
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Wasn't that back when we were seizing the Eight Peaks?
Technically, we did enter a state that could be classified as "Avatar of Mork" when we accidentally performed that counter ritual.
Well yes, but we had a choice to make it permanent, you know orc mutations and all.
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IIRC Manaan cares more about your making appropriate offerings and following the right rituals then he does about whether or not you have any faith in him.
Codex
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Oh wow. I was going through the Anvil Runes for the Dwarfs, and I noticed something. Dwarfs have three standard Anvil Runes in 8th Edition's base army book, and a further three Ancestor Runes in the Storm of Magic Supplement, which are buffed up and more powerful, and I've come across something very interesting that I found relevant.
The standard Anvil Runes are:
Rune of Hearth and Home: Targets every single Dwarf in 24" (and only Dwarfs). Grants Immune to Psychology for a turn.
Rune of Oath and Steel: Targets a single Dwarf unit, giving +1 to their armor saves for a turn.
Rune of Wrath and Ruin: Cracks the ground open to vent magma at enemies, dealing 2d6 Strength 4 hits to a unit distributed as shooting.
Fairly tame stuff, but I think you can cast all these runes as bound spells once per turn each, so it makes sense that it's limited. Now, here's the big stuff. The Ancestor Runes:
Ancestor Rune of Grungni: Targets a number of friendly units equal to the number of successful strikings (notice that this isn't restricted to Dwarfs like the regular Anvil Runes). All allies affected by this have the Fight in Extra Ranks special rule and reroll all failed to hit rolls for both shooting and close combat for a turn.
Ancestor Rune of Grimnir: Same as Rune of Wrath and Ruin except it has a wider area of effect.
Ancestor Rune of Valaya: Targets a number of friendly units equal to the number of successful strikings, not Dwarf restricted. Heals targeted units in the exact same way as Regrowth and grants all affected units Unbreakable for a full turn.
Why is all this relevant? Well, we've seen Anvil Runes in the quest before, but here's why I think it's important:
This has been pointed out a long time ago, but it's also the reason why Mathilde noted the Undumgi had such an affinity for Dwarfs and picked up Khazalid nearly as fast as she did. Their souls were literally transmuted with the spirit of Grungni.
The standard Anvil Runes are:
Rune of Hearth and Home: Targets every single Dwarf in 24" (and only Dwarfs). Grants Immune to Psychology for a turn.
Rune of Oath and Steel: Targets a single Dwarf unit, giving +1 to their armor saves for a turn.
Rune of Wrath and Ruin: Cracks the ground open to vent magma at enemies, dealing 2d6 Strength 4 hits to a unit distributed as shooting.
Fairly tame stuff, but I think you can cast all these runes as bound spells once per turn each, so it makes sense that it's limited. Now, here's the big stuff. The Ancestor Runes:
Ancestor Rune of Grungni: Targets a number of friendly units equal to the number of successful strikings (notice that this isn't restricted to Dwarfs like the regular Anvil Runes). All allies affected by this have the Fight in Extra Ranks special rule and reroll all failed to hit rolls for both shooting and close combat for a turn.
Ancestor Rune of Grimnir: Same as Rune of Wrath and Ruin except it has a wider area of effect.
Ancestor Rune of Valaya: Targets a number of friendly units equal to the number of successful strikings, not Dwarf restricted. Heals targeted units in the exact same way as Regrowth and grants all affected units Unbreakable for a full turn.
Why is all this relevant? Well, we've seen Anvil Runes in the quest before, but here's why I think it's important:
What Kragg did here was not Oath and Steel or Hearth and Home. Aside from the fact that those Anvil Runes only affect Dwarven units, the effect presented here does not fit what they do. He used the Ancestor Rune of Grungni on them, which grants fight in extra rank and reroll hits, represented as "Dwarfish enmity of greenskins" strengthening their arms and flooding through their minds. That might also explain this:
Kragg didn't just use a regular Anvil Rune, he got so caught up he used an Ancestor Rune, a greatly treasured and powerful artifact of the Golden Age to empower the Undumgi. I can understand Belegar wanting to cover that up to prevent outrage from the wider Dwarf community.
This has been pointed out a long time ago, but it's also the reason why Mathilde noted the Undumgi had such an affinity for Dwarfs and picked up Khazalid nearly as fast as she did. Their souls were literally transmuted with the spirit of Grungni.
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I waffled back and forth a lot on this one, but ultimately decided that I should vote for what I considered to be a good idea and not what I considered to be a Good Idea (tm).
I waffled back and forth a lot on this one, but ultimately decided that I should vote for what I considered to be a good idea and not what I considered to be a Good Idea (tm).