Cult Creator - The Pilgrims Journey

[X] Plan Search Actions and Psychology

Godwinson said:

I'm also not terribly enthused with burning a +50 Pioneer level artifact on a Common Theory.

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You'll want to tag Thors for that, since his plan is currently winning.

Both plans have that line, and I didn't tag anyone in particular.

Godwinson said:

I don't think we should risk ^Ä^ health (possibly very existence) simply for a slight increase in speed.

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It's only a 5% chance and it only mentions permanent damage, not death. I'm not too happy with it either but not finishing "Illness Of The Mind" makes more suicides very likely.

Godwinson said:

I'm also not terribly enthused with burning a +50 Pioneer level artifact on a Common Theory.

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Changed the Artefact. @Thors_Alumni feel free to copy that part if you agree with @Godwinson

I think it's still to much of a risk using them since a lot of people will get mad if they get hurt.

[X] Plan Help of a Core and Searching for Mutated

Anybody got ideas for our public response?

Manowl said:

I think it's still to much of a risk using them since a lot of people will get mad if they get hurt.

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That's fine. I posted the alternate plan because it comes down to a decision on if the risk to ^Ä^ is worth it if it prevents further suicides. Maybe it won't matter at all and we roll a 6 on the bonus we get from "Grease The Wheels", or we roll a 1 and can't finish the project anyway.

EyeOfSauron said:

Anybody got ideas for our public response?

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Gnu wrote an idea, but I don't know if they plan to do any revisions.

On my end I'm a bit torn on what to do. The law itself is not a bad law, it's just that the judge took the worst take possible on it. But I don't know what should be done about it.

karmaoa said:

My worry about doing the Academic Specialization before the Cultural Specialization is that that was what destroyed the pre-Collapse civilization. During Interlude: Our Graves Of Greed, Deep Below, Mes explicitly states that he did give humanity knowledge stores and technology from before their... pre-pre-Collapse? Anyway, they promptly abused said knowledge to the extend that he gave up on them.

To me, that drives home that for everything that we can regain of the pre-Collapse knowledge, it's even more important how that knowledge will be used. And that is a cultural question.

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I'm not sure how good the comparison is.
Mes wasn't an independent actor in the world as much as a provider of knowledge and advisor, from what I got from the text. The Pilgrims are different.
They are active in the world, doing their own thing. They are the first to make use of any knolwedge they reclaim, giving an example and raising their influence and ability to affect the world in the process.
The Pilgrims would be teaching their knowledge on their terms, in their city. Really, simply being the source of the knowledge is already a position of power and influence if you are willing to use it. They wouldn't be bystanders. (Presumably they also wouldn't continue to support a slaving purveyor of atrocities, though Mes may have been motivated by the approaching end times there.) Basically, the pilgrims would be able to stay on top of things for long enough to ensure they can deal with almost anyone who would try to misuse the knowledge on a large scale. Either personally, or by leveraging their many connections and political clout, which will only grow.

I would agree that avoiding misuse of knowledge is important, but we can only have one specialization for Norqod. We can have multiple districts, but only one specialization (at least that's what the descriptions imply). And using that as a safeguard against something that may be a problem, and doesn't necessarily require use of the specialization to prevent, seems like a bit of a waste.
There's also the fact that the people who come to learn in Norquod would be immersed in its culture to some extent, which means some degree of influence on them almost by default. Not total coverage, but even with cultural district not as a specialization but as just a district, it should count. There's synergy there.
(Also, I find it a bit unfortunate that the part that the description of the blue light district focusses mostly on recreational activities rather than the media and communication type of culture. Brothels, gambling, drugs, tea and coffe shops, etc. Things that would actually communicate ideas directly would only be additional projects. Seems lopsided? Like, I guess part of the reason is mechanical, with media beind 'additional projects' exactly because there was a need to have idea spreading projects, so it was removed from the base thing. Though that's maybe going far too far into speculation.)

Edit: Oh, and there's also the fact that the Pilgrims are still worlds away from mind controlling brain implants, designer bioweapons, and the like. They litterally don't have the stuff that was mentioned as used for the worst atrocities in atrocities in the pre-collapse civilisation, and they will not for a long time, if ever. The things that they do have are mostly just useful things, stuff that would give economic prosperity and improve peoples lives.

[Beware, some speculation on pre-collappse societies ahead.]
Their approach to knowedge is also very different. The pre-collapsers use what was given to them for domination, those with access to Mes presumably using that to expand their power exonentially. Imagine a postapocalyptic maybe-feudal world where some of the biggest baddest groups suddenly have access to far superior technology. That's how you get horrible regiems.
But the pilgrims started from the base of knowedge, working their way up by their own effort. And this working up will be shared with the world at large, rather than small groups hoarding super powers for domination of their fellows. Sharing knowledge wide and making the pursuit of it a common project of humanity seems like it is in a way the opposite of what likely led to the dystopia of pre-collapse societies.

Lastly, a specialization for sharing around the knowledge they reclaimed just seems more in character for the pilgrims & directly connects with 'What Was Will Be'.

[X][Voices] "My first reaction is utter horror and disgust at the Rose of Flesh cult's actions, and the actions of the Empire Judiciary.
After that, there's a microscopically small part of me that understands what Judge B'il did. Protecting mutants and the disabled from eugenocide is an important function of the courts, and - in spirit at least - that is what Ordnance 14-VV7 is meant to do. However, Courts and Judges have a responsibility to do more than robotically execute the most literal interpretation of the law. They exist to ensure that the varying details of each case are considered and judged in context, so that the letter of the law never violates the spirit. To be the oil that allows the machinery of justice and society to function. Judge Bi'l's attitude is an abdication of that responsibility, and he has thus demonstrated himself utterly incapable of performing his job.
As such, the other 99.999%? That's equal parts cold determination to do everything in our power to set this right, and towering fury of NEVER AGAIN."
[X][Declaration] "The core of Humanity is found in our bonds to each other. To care, to love; these are both our privilege and our duty as members of the human race. Suffering cries out to be remedied; great suffering demands great compassion in response. The Pilgrims live by this principle, and we refuse to stand idly in light of recent events.
Survivors of the Rose of Flesh, the Pilgrims welcome you. Should you desire it, you need only approach any Pilgrim and we will provide you with shelter, safety, food, care, and work if you are able. We cannot undo the crimes of the Rose of Flesh, but we will do whatever we can to help you heal and build anew.
The Pilgrims firmly recognize the right of all persons to bodily autonomy. Empire Ordinances #326b-S and #14-VV7 are a violation of that right and are actively harmful policies to the Empire and its people. While we recognize the intention of these ordinances to protect the rights of the mutated and the disabled as a critical, praiseworthy goal, we cannot abide a law which allows such travesties as Judge B'il's decision.
We condemn, we denounce, we abhor the absolute lack of humanity displayed by the Empire Ordinances #326b-S and #14-VV7. We declare that with the cruelty and intellectual cowardice of his decision, B'il has demonstrated himself manifestly unfit to hold the position of Judgeship. The Pilgrims will do everything in our power to right these injustices, until the task is done."

I will post this for now, but if a anyone has suggestions I am open to revising.

BelligerentGnu said:

[X][Voices] "My first reaction is utter horror and disgust at the Rose of Flesh cult's actions, and the actions of the Empire Judiciary.
After that, there's a microscopically small part of me that understands what Judge B'il did. Protecting mutants and the disabled from eugenocide is an important function of the courts, and - in spirit at least - that is what Ordnance 14-VV7 is meant to do. However, Courts and Judges have a responsibility to do more than robotically execute the most literal interpretation of the law. They exist to ensure that the varying details of each case are considered and judged in context, so that the letter of the law never violates the spirit. To be the oil that allows the machinery of justice and society to function. Judge Bi'l's attitude is an abdication of that responsibility, and he has thus demonstrated himself utterly incapable of performing his job.
As such, the other 99.999%? That's equal parts cold determination to do everything in our power to set this right, and towering fury of NEVER AGAIN."
[X][Declaration] "The core of Humanity is found in our bonds to each other. To care, to love; these are both our privilege and our duty as members of the human race. Suffering cries out to be remedied; great suffering demands great compassion in response. The Pilgrims live by this principle, and we refuse to stand idly in light of recent events.
Survivors of the Rose of Flesh, the Pilgrims welcome you. Should you desire it, you need only approach any Pilgrim and we will provide you with shelter, safety, food, care, and work if you are able. We cannot undo the crimes of the Rose of Flesh, but we will do whatever we can to help you heal and build anew.
The Pilgrims firmly recognize the right of all persons to bodily autonomy. Empire Ordinances #326b-S and #14-VV7 are a violation of that right and are actively harmful policies to the Empire and its people. While we recognize the intention of these ordinances to protect the rights of the mutated and the disabled as a critical, praiseworthy goal, we cannot abide a law which allows such travesties as Judge B'il's decision.
We condemn, we denounce, we abhor the absolute lack of humanity displayed by the Empire Ordinances #326b-S and #14-VV7. We declare that with the cruelty and intellectual cowardice of his decision, B'il has demonstrated himself manifestly unfit to hold the position of Judgeship. The Pilgrims will do everything in our power to right these injustices, until the task is done."

I will post this for now, but if a anyone has suggestions I am open to revising.

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I would probably focus less on attacking b'il incompetence

As annoying as literalist judges can be
They are one of the main reasons why you dont have law reforms every time a new party takes power

People like b'il exist to ensure there isnt civil war by passing wild reforms that anger huge chunks of society against each other
Or if the radicals like the church of eden becomes mainstream they cant simply steam roll the law to do their biding

We should appeal less to "see how evil or incompetent b'il is" because he isnt
The flaw is within the way the law itself is versed

He is literelist,he applies the law as he see is written to be fair and impartial

Instead we should focus more on appealin on reforming/changing the law so it takes into account context,so literalists can enforce it without causing strife

I. Literalism: literal text of the Constitution

• Just read the words: All answers found in the wording of the Constitution.
• No external sources as support.
• Complete belief in Constitution's ability to provide answers.
  Advantage:
  1. Removes judge's predisposition: Follow the law, not what the judge wants the law to say.
  2. Problems with Literalism:
  3. Seemingly inconsistent outcomes: Seem at odds.
  4. Ambiguity in Constitution: Sometimes seem intended by framers to provide flexible document.
  5. Lack of precision in language itself: Words have different meanings and contexts.
  6. Some values in Constitution are at odds with each other, but the literalist approach offers no guidelines for resolving the differences.

II. Original Intent: historical basis; intent/motives of framers

• What is the law supposed to mean? Purpose of Law?
• What the framers intended the Constitution to mean.
  Advantage:
  1. To deviate from intent is to change the nature of the Constitution.
  2. Law doesn't change according to interpretations of judges.
  3. Starting point when faced with unanticipated circumstances: Derive principles and apply to circumstances.
  4. Disadvantages:
  5. Lack of complete record: No transcript of Convention debate
  6. Whose intention to follow? Whom do we mean by framers?
  7. Demands that judge know something that is in some sense unknowable: How do you truly know true intent?

III. Doctrinal Approach: follow precedent

• principle of Stare de cisis:"Let the decision stand"
  • New cases should be decided the same way as old cases.
  • Follow precedents if similar facts in previous cases.
  • Makes laws stable and predictable so people know what to expect because judges follow previous decisions.
• Advantages:
  1. Adopt principle and apply to cases with similar circumstances: Attempts internal consistency by judges in decisions.
  2. Consistency and continuity in law.
• Disadvantages:
  1. Size & diversity of cases/rulings: Always find precedent for either side.
  2. Most common approach, but it's used by judges in both majority and minority opinions.
  3. Difference between
     ratio decindi: underlying principle/rule of decision
     obiter dictum: excess language; legal reasoning to support decision
     Which is which?
  4. Justices can alway decide facts of case are different from precedent: No guidelines for following precedent.

IV. Competing Interests (Prudential): balance one interest against another

• Which outcome is most sensible? Practical application of what judge believes he or she ought to do.
• Which value deserves more protection?
• Concerned with deciding on case-by-case basis: What makes the most sense for those circumstances?
• Recognizes implications of the decision.
  Problems:
  1. Fails to ensure consistency: Less weight to precedents. Depends on what judge thinks.
  2. No standard means of making a decision: Judges have to weigh criteria on their own. Should be a standard under which any judge could come to same conclusion.
  3. Subjective opinion of judge.
  4. Difference between Prudential and Precedent:
  5. Prudential = particulars of case over legal principle
  6. Precedent = principle over particulars of case

V. Structuralism: larger relationships within the Constitution, not specific provisions

• Problems:
  1. More abstract approach means less accurate.
  2. More chances of multiple interpretations.
  3. Subjective

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A strong well written set of laws with a literalist judge means a strong foundation hard to remove and sets precedents

Dont figth literalists (you would have to figth the entirety of the law system esentially) instead seek to change the law and literalists will bend and accept the changes and enforce them

Encourage legal appealings and second instances to re consider the law

Literalist jurisprudence isn't. It's either a complete abandonment of the judge's entire fucking job, or it's a bald-faced lie in service of injustice.

armentho said:

As annoying as literalist judges can be
They are one of the main reasons why you dont have law reforms every time a new party takes power

People like b'il exist to ensure there isnt civil war by passing wild reforms that anger huge chunks of society against each other
Or if the radicals like the church of eden becomes mainstream they cant simply steam roll the law to do their biding

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I mean, I see your argument, but I can't agree with it. From my point of view, a great deal of the entire point judges exist is to deal with the fact that language is an inherently flexible thing laden with contextual meaning. Literalism is a proud refusal to do the job a judge was hired to do.

I'd encourage you to post a variation on my write-up if feel strongly about it, though.

Jastolus said:

They are active in the world, doing their own thing. They are the first to make use of any knolwedge they reclaim, giving an example and raising their influence and ability to affect the world in the process.

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My problem with this point is that it ignores that there are other groups that recover pre-Collapse knowledge. We know of groups like the 4S, who we are working with, or the 3-Point University, which is the main research center for the empire. And god knows what the Forge Clans have hidden away.
The point is that the Pilgrims aren't the only source of pre-Collapse knowledge and we can't rely on using it to influence people or entire states.

Then there is the fact that the Cultural Spezalisation not only helps with influencing how people use and interact with technology but also how they interact with each other. It is the specialization that is most suited to normalize the relations between pure humans and Mutated, not to mention that it would help with hammering some decent morals into the population so that the Rose of Flesh cult hopefully can't repeat their actions in other regions.

Jastolus said:

Edit: Oh, and there's also the fact that the Pilgrims are still worlds away from mind controlling brain implants, designer bioweapons, and the like. They litterally don't have the stuff that was mentioned as used for the worst atrocities in atrocities in the pre-collapse civilisation, and they will not for a long time, if ever. The things that they do have are mostly just useful things, stuff that would give economic prosperity and improve peoples lives.

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I would note that Artefacts like that can simply be found in ruins by scavengers or adventurers, which leads to entire countries being destroyed. See the Starlight Crusade or, in the hands of more competent groups, the Bio-Forge Heresy.

Hell, remember the collective shit brick everyone dumped after we pulled out the daughter.

BelligerentGnu said:

We condemn, we denounce, we abhor the absolute lack of humanity displayed by the Empire Ordinances #326b-S and #14-VV7.

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Looking back on this. This line might come out as too aggressive towards the law itself. It wasn't the law that lacked humanity, quite the contrary, they were meant to protect people from similar situations. It was B'il himself that showed a lack of humanity, the law will need to be revised to prevent these kinds of fuck-ups but it does not need to be thrown out entirely.

Amilia said:

Hell, remember the collective shit brick everyone dumped after we pulled out the daughter.


Looking back on this. This line might come out as too aggressive towards the law itself. It wasn't the law that lacked humanity, quite the contrary, they were meant to protect people from similar situations. It was B'il himself that showed a lack of humanity, the law will need to be revised to prevent these kinds of fuck-ups but it does not need to be thrown out entirely.

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Hmmm. I'll mull this over. I'm not sure if I agree - the original idea was that a law that allows such loopholes is inhumane, because they *will* be exploited. Still kinda feel that way.

BelligerentGnu said:

I'm not sure if I agree - the original idea was that a law that allows such loopholes is inhumane, because they *will* be exploited. Still kinda feel that way.

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Yeah, but revision sounds a lot less radical than 'throw it out'. Sounds more concrete also, like: this is what's wrong with the law, let's change it so the law is better.

Getting the empire to ammend a law seems to me like an achievable goal, especially when that law was put in place by a previous emperor, who are deified by most of the population.

Amilia said:

Yeah, but revision sounds a lot less radical than 'throw it out'. Sounds more concrete also, like: this is what's wrong with the law, let's change it so the law is better.

Getting the empire to ammend a law seems to me like an achievable goal, especially when that law was put in place by a previous emperor, who are deified by most of the population.

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I don't think I used that phrase though? The closest I came was "fixed".

BelligerentGnu said:

I don't think I used that phrase though? The closest I came was "fixed".

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It's heavily implied. You say that the pilgrims cannot abide by the law as it currently is as well as heavily enphazise that the law is inhumane.

Amilia said:

It's heavily implied. You say that the pilgrims cannot abide by the law as it currently is as well as heavily enphazise that the law is inhumane.

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See, my intent at least was to imply modification, but very well, I can re-word

I need 9 1d100 for your Actions with a DC of:
20/80, if successful, roll 1/4d2 Goodwill
05, if successful, roll 4d20+10
20/80, if successful, roll 1/4d2 Goodwill
50 rolled with +25
40/70/100 rolled with +68
60/90/120 rolled with +81
20/25/30 rolled with +39
DC: 0/20/40/60/80/100/120/140/150, rolled with +121; if one is reached, roll 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9d2+1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9
86/141/196 rolled with +138 and 2d10

The first failure is re-rolled
All others have a DC of 50 for Goodwill roll.

Further Rolls:

Grease The Wheels:
1d6

Piety:
1d6-3

Faithful:
1d100
1d100

Income:
32d4+12d12+4d8+9d19+7d18

The first rolls are taken as official.
I will roll on the 16.10.21 at 17:00 CET if there are no other rolls present.

Give me a minute.

I need a 1d100 with a DC of 90 for your extra theory.

Here

[X] Plan Search Actions and Psychology
-[X][Faith] A Helping Hand - (1/1 Turns Complete) - (-10 Materials)
Needed: 20/80, Rolled: 6 Fail, Re-Roll: 63
Success!
Goodwill: 1

-[X][Faith] The Pilgrims Need You! - (2/2 Turns Complete)
Needed: 05, Rolled: 9
Success!
Recruits: 71

-[X][Faith: One-Turn] A Helping Hand - (1/1 Turns Complete) - (-10 Materials)
Needed: 20/80, Rolled: 21
Success!
Goodwill: 2

-[X][Diplomacy] High-End Introduction - (The Emperor) - (1/1 Turns Complete)
Needed: 50, Rolled: 38 + 25 = 63

-[X][Martial] Build An Armory - (Grand) - (4/4 Turns Complete)
--[X] Keep the Wall unit at the Mirn Consensual
+1 Turn of Progress.
Success!

-[X][Learning] Assemble The Theorists! - (Common Hydraulics Theory) - (3/2 Successes)
--[X] (Scientific Theory +15, + 3FF)=+18
--[X] (Turbine Injectors +50 to Pioneer Hydraulics/Chemicals)=+50
Needed: 40/70/100, Rolled: 51 + 68 = 119
+3 Successes
Success!
Extra Theory: 64, Fail.

-[X][Learning] The Movement Of Things - Part 1 - (Hydraulic/Machinery/Metallurgy) - (3/6 Successes) - (-16 Materials)
--[X] (Scientific Theory +15, + 6FF)=+21
--[X](Busted Walker Coolant Tube +20 to Advanced Hydraulics, Piston Motor +20 to Advanced Machinery, Oil Refinery Parts +20 to Advanced Chemicals/Machinery/Hydraulics)=+60
Needed: 60/90/120, Rolled: 78 + 81 = 159
+3 Successes

-[X][Learning] The Means Of Reproduction - (All Chemicals/Medicine/Biology) - (3/21 Successes)
--[X] (2 [DOC] +24, Scientific Theory +15)=+39
Needed: 20/25/30, Rolled: 34 + 39 = 73
+3 Successes

-[X][Archeology] Prepare an Expedition (GY-03) - (Preparation: 2 Turns) - (House Mirn support: N) - (2/2 Turns Complete)
+1 Turn of Progress.
Success!

-[X][Tree of Knowledge] Laboratories - Grand - (5/5 Turns Complete) - [Sandcrete](-12.5 Materials)
+2 Turns of Progress.
Success!

-[X][Tree of Knowledge] Library - (Basic) - (3/6 Turns Complete)
+1 Turn of Progress.

-[X][Holdings] Blue Light District - [Cultural Specialization] - (2/2 Turns Complete) - (-16.5 Materials)
--[X] Hire Contractors - (*1) - (-7 Materials)
+2 Turns of Progress.
Success!

-[X][Aria action] Lead By Example (Search For The Raped Mutated) - (1/1 Turns Complete)
-[X][Martyris action] Too Much To Do - (Search For The Raped Mutated) - (0/1 Turns Complete))
--[X] (Personal Action +50, Lead By Example Aria +40, Adventurer Guild +25, + 6FF)=+121
Thresholds: 0/20/40/60/80/100/120/140/150, Rolled: 71 + 121 = 192
Saved Lifes: 24

-[X][Martyris action] Too Much To Do - (Illness Of The Mind - (Psychology) - (17/15 Successes))
--[X] [PD], [DoD], [In The Name Of Profit], [Grease The Wheels], [Rare Odds And Ends]
--[X] (1 [SC] +12, Scientific Theory +15, Black Box +5, Personal Action +50, Forgotten Diary +50 to Advanced Psychology, + 6FF)=+138
Needed: 86/141/196, Rolled: 84 + 138 + 9 = 231
+3 Automatic Successes
+5 Greased Successes
+3 Successes
Success!

-[X] Merchants - (All Are Free Actions)
--[X] Repay Loan - (-37.5 Materials)
Success!

--[X] Backroom Deals - (Engine Assembly)
Success!

-[X] The Adventurer Guild - (1 Action)
--[X] Investigate - (Assist Martyris with "Search For The Raped Mutated") - (-3 Material)
Success!

-[X] Stupendously Scholastic Scholars of Science - (1 Action)
--[X] In The Name Of Profit - (Illness Of The Mind) - (1/1 Turns Complete) - (-15 Materials)
Success!

-[X] Forge Clan Vanar-Feer - (1 Action Locked)
--[X] Engineers Galore - (Engineer) - (6/6 Turns Complete) - (-15 Materials)
Success!
+1 Engineer!

-[X] Conclave Of Fraya - (1 Action)
--[X] Eternal Arts - (Norqod) - (1/15 Turns Complete) - (-5 Materials)
+1 Turn of Progress.

-[X] The Bureau For Imperial Civilian Logistics - (1 Action)
--[X]Grease The Wheels - (Illness Of The Mind) - (-15 Materials, -15 Goodwill)
Success!

-[X] Nine Tribes Council - (1 Action)
--[X] Rare Odds And Ends - (Illness Of The Mind - (Psychology)) - (-15 Materials)
Success!

Further Rolls:

Piety:
1d6-3 = 6 - 3 = 3% Piety reduction

Faithful:
1st: Needed: None, Rolled: Irrelevant
Success!
2nd: Needed: 33, Rolled: 25

Income:
32d4+12d12+4d8+9d19+7d18+159.34 = 338 + 159.34 = 497.34 Materials!

Upkeep:
225.18 Materials

Spent:
180 Materials

Change:
+92.16 Materials

The update will be online on the 22.10.21 at 17:00 CET.