Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Rafin · Apr 29, 2021

DragonParadox said:
Except is is not just that, a library is an institution, not large sack of favors and a lot of those books will be in the hands of scholars who will want to copy our own tomes

I know that. I'm saying that if it's about those Expansive Esoteric and Antiquarian Imperial, Brettonian, Dwarven, Tilean, Classical, Arabyan and Kislevite stacking bonuses then, as far as BoneyM even allows them to continue to work that way and doesn't overhaul the whole system due to oversaturation, we will get those in all categories that don't involve Guild secrets, regardless of our level of involvement, within a relatively short span of time after the actual construction of the Library proper.
Any work where head librarian would be a potentially valuable position is for when we want to go beyond that.

DragonParadox said:
I contend that the college is a lot more complex than 'here are some chairs and here are some wizards'. It too is and institution with its own needed resources and boons that come with it.

Probably. But it feels more worth the investment to me at least because a) any recruiting we do for it doubles as recruiting for the Waystone Project and b) it directly helps us save AP on various side projects that we want to do regardless.

DragonParadox said:
I mean it says right in the option that it locks 1/2 AP per turn. It feels more than a bit disingenuous to try to re-frame the conversation around 'well it is at least 1 AP'

Spending only half an AP a turn on an important new job seems like it takes half-assing to a new level. It might not be as important as Spymaster or Loremaster, but it does seem like it's on the level of importance as, say, High Priest of Ranald or Personal Assistant to the Loremaster. And we've had a tradition of putting in more work than the minimum expected. So 1-2 AP a turn seems fair, even if only 1/2 AP is mandatory. Otherwise we are just abusing our position of head librarian for pure personal benefit and not actually being a head librarian.

Redshirt Army said:
The "concrete benefit" of being head librarian is that we get to constantly see the library feature in the narrative, get constant updates on the state of the library

And for people who like libraries and their effect on the world, but aren't model train level fanatics of bibliothecography?

Especially because since the very beginning of this idea I always expected this to go at a Dwarven pace. Done right, not done fast. The actual construction alone should take years, seeing how we are building a Grand Dwarven Library as a monument to our achievements, not an attic for Umgi books.

Also, I think you are underrepresented the granularity of head librarian in your examples. High-level policy would involve Mathilde personally knowing and dealing with Edda, the new Loremaster, the Head Librarian that isn't us and occasionally some other figure of import. Being head librarian will most likely involve interacting with actual named staff members, hirelings from new races, department heads like chief translator, chief procurer and architect of the library and the heads of other libraries and book collections.

I see being head librarian as at least 40% as narratively important as the Waystone Project. Like a second day job. Or to put it differently, high-level policy is what most of our EIC actions were about before we hired the Hochlander. Head librarian is taking the equivalent job of what Wilhelmina does in the EIC, except with a little less passion due to also doing the Waystone Project.

LockedMind · Apr 29, 2021

ctulhuslp said:
Well, that's perfectly fair, as long as we are all aware of tradeoffs and that promised action economy relief of research college branch is not going to arrive and that action economy (well, after refactoring, so hard to say, but) is not going to improve and might get worse.
And of, well, Head Librarian text repeating "day-to-day" twice, to make sure we are aware it's an administrative position first and foremost, and not Book Indiana Jones.

Action economy exists to choose cool things to read about. As long as I believe that being Head Librarian is cool, no argument from AP perspective is going to work by definition. As for the "day-to-day" part - well, the position is what we'll make out of it. Mathilde was a very atypical Loremaster, I don't see why she can't be a very atypical Head Librarian.

Argent Citadel · Apr 29, 2021

[X] (LIBRARY) High-level policy
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) World's Memory / Karaz Kron

Boney · Apr 29, 2021

Rafin said:
Spending only half an AP a turn on an important new job seems like it takes half-assing to a new level. It might not be as important as Spymaster or Loremaster, but it does seem like it's on the level of importance as, say, High Priest of Ranald or Personal Assistant to the Loremaster. And we've had a tradition of putting in more work than the minimum expected. So 1-2 AP a turn seems fair, even if only 1/2 AP is mandatory. Otherwise we are just abusing our position of head librarian for pure personal benefit and not actually being a head librarian.

The library is going to exist as repayment for deeds Mathilde has already done. It's a reward, not an obligation. Nobody will be auditing her hours and questioning whether she's 'abusing' her position.

Rafin said:
I see being head librarian as at least 40% as narratively important as the Waystone Project. Like a second day job. Or to put it differently, high-level policy is what most of our EIC actions were about before we hired the Hochlander. Head librarian is taking the equivalent job of what Wilhelmina does in the EIC, except with a little less passion due to also doing the Waystone Project.

No. Head librarian is mechanically equivalent to the current implementation of Mathilde's EIC actions, as indicated by: Will count as an organization under Mathilde's control, so will cost a half-action a turn.

Glau · Apr 29, 2021

Yeah, I'm also on the 'AP exists basically so we can decide what cool things to read about' train, and I like the idea that we are going to be dealing mostly with our own orgs for the next arc. EIC through the hochlander, wizards and dwarves and elves in the branch, and the low-stakes personal fief of the library.

Given that I don't think tongs are a practical research path, and I'm interested in handing AV research off to the branch, there's really not a lot I want to preserve personal time for. I'm comfortable doing most of our actions through our institutions- this is the payoff for doing awesome; we get to be our own boss. So having free AP seems like a lot lower priority than when we had to spend a decent amount of actions on stuff we didn't choose.

Nerdasaurus Rex · Apr 29, 2021

I like that Divided Loyalties has come full circle; at the start Mathilde had multiple Masters, now Mathilde is the Master of multiple organisations; the branch collage, the library, the EIC, the waystones, her personal research backlog. Her loyalties are divided, not to figures of authority, but to institutions beholden to her authority.

That's why I want to be head librarian, it's a different type of narrative space to her other obligations, and I'd like to see how she juggles the responsibilities.

If there ends up being mechanical synergy between these, well, that's a bonus, but it's not something to seek out for it's own sake.

Rafin · Apr 29, 2021

BoneyM said:
The library is going to exist as repayment for deeds Mathilde has already done. It's a reward, not an obligation. Nobody will be auditing her hours and questioning whether she's 'abusing' her position.

No. Head librarian is mechanically equivalent to the current implementation of Mathilde's EIC actions, as indicated by: Will count as an organization under Mathilde's control, so will cost a half-action a turn.

That's as far as mechanics and obligations go. But as an argument on narrative and Mathilde's ethics and life decisions, I think it is fair to say that taking on the job of head librarian is taking on a serious job (insofar Mathilde considers the Library itself a serious thing worthy of being treated seriously) and that just coasting on the job and title by putting in minimal effort for maximal reward is ethically questionable even if Mathilde can get away with it without anyone raising a stink about it. To me it would be like wanting to be the CEO of a charity she founded, while not wanting to do a CEO's job. Completely doable since it's her charity, funded by her rewards, but still not something I'm personally all that interested in doing.

Thus me saying:

Rafin said:
So 1-2 AP a turn seems fair, even if only 1/2 AP is mandatory.

-

Glau said:
Given that I don't think tongs are a practical research path, and I'm interested in handing AV research off to the branch, there's really not a lot I want to preserve personal time for. I'm comfortable doing most of our actions through our institutions- this is the payoff for doing awesome; we get to be our own boss. So having free AP seems like a lot lower priority than when we had to spend a decent amount of actions on stuff we didn't choose.

Things we might want personal AP for:

Training and learning new skills.
The Kurgan Moon Shrine.
Tongs (even if you personally don't care about them).
Recruiting multiple people simultaneously.
Perfecting, codifying and teaching Rite of Way.
Doubling down on important institutional actions.
Getting Arcane Marks under control.
Personal involvement in other people's affairs because we feel like it (like we did in Sylvania).
Improving Wolf.
Doing personal favors to people or organizations so that they are more willing to aid the Waystone Project or some other thing Mathilde is interested in (like longevity).
Unexpected adventures and opportunities that come up.

DragonParadox · Apr 29, 2021

Rafin said:
Thus me saying:

-

I feel like this is you trying to browbeat the GM into agreeing with you when he said it would cost 1/2 Action. The EiC does not incur random narrative fluff tax or the Little Baby Sigmar will cry and neither will this.

SpaceSloth · Apr 29, 2021

I really can't imagine boney giving us the option to have the position for 0,5 AP, and then telling us that if we want the library to function well that we will need to invest more AP.

Boney · Apr 29, 2021

Rafin said:
That's as far as mechanics and obligations go. But as an argument on narrative and Mathilde's ethics and life decisions, I think it is fair to say that taking on the job of head librarian is taking on a serious job (insofar Mathilde considers the Library itself a serious thing worthy of being treated seriously) and that just coasting on the job and title by putting in minimal effort for maximal reward is ethically questionable even if Mathilde can get away with it without anyone raising a stink about it. To me it would be like wanting to be the CEO of a charity she founded, while not wanting to do a CEO's job. Completely doable since it's her charity, funded by her rewards, but still not something I'm personally all that interested in doing.

Being head librarian is her choosing maximal involvement in the library, not some 'ethically questionable' bare minimum. Mathilde wanting to make decisions about the reward she is being given is not morally equivalent to abusing a charitable organization, and I really don't like that sort of extremely loaded argument being introduced here, nor do I like what you're indirectly saying about everyone that's voting for that option.

Redshirt Army · Apr 29, 2021

Rafin said:
just coasting on the job and title by putting in minimal effort for maximal reward is ethically questionable even if Mathilde can get away with it

Surely according to you the "minimal effort for maximal reward" choice would be the "high-level policy" choice, since you seem to think it'll let us have our AP and eat it too?

Less facetiously, I think you're just flatly wrong about the level of investment each choice corresponds to - you've said that you think that high-level policy is about equivalent to our involvement in the EIC and that head librarian is about equivalent to our full-time job, but that just isn't the case.

Head librarian corresponds to investment equivalent to our EIC involvement (and thus costs the same amount of AP), and high-level policy just lets us have a policy vote every two or so years (and thus costs no AP).

Valmond · Apr 29, 2021

DragonParadox said:
Answers, hints, places to start looking, the lore of the ages, asking what do you expect from books is like asking what do you expect from the concept of knowledge IMO.

That has not been how books have generally worked so far, i would not expect it to suddenly change.
Now, i would not be surprised if some books did give us that, but i would hope such books would have larger narrative weight than sending some people to buy them, and i would expect it to actually take time and effort.
Assuming we even knew of specific books to acquire, which is bit of an ask, especially when talking of books in other nations.

picklepikkl · Apr 29, 2021

One thing I'm coming around to Head Librarian on is that I think it has really good synergy with our command of the EIC's intelligence network.

One of the main issues we've had, when considering "hey, should we send spies to spy on X?" is the fact that the EIC's reach just isn't actually that far:

BoneyM said:
Current Operations:
Complete dominance over Stirland government contracts.
Complete dominance over supplying goods and services in Karag Nar.
Complete dominance over Western Stirland gong farming.
Moderate dominance of intra-Stirland trade.
Moderate dominance over Stirlandian wool products.
Moderate dominance on the Aver.
Moderate presence in interstate trade in Stirland, the Moot, and Talabecland.
Minor presence in interstate trade in Averland and Wissenland.
Minor presence in Nuln and Altdorf.

Stirland, Karag Nar, the Moot, Talabecland, and little Averland, Wissenland, Nuln, and Altdorf. This is because of its Tall, Not Wide corporate belief; Wilhelmina has guided it to dominate small areas rather than spread out. But, as Head Librarian, I think it would be trivial to say "we're going to hire these people to go be our purchasing agents and look around for books in various places" -- and then, in our hat as EIC Spymaster, say "Hochlander, ensure that the people who go out as purchasing agents are your people and can start building spy networks." This would expand our ability to penetrate various places where we previously didn't have a reasonable cover to do so, and while a lot of people have expressed discontent with the EIC, I think our ability to use it for spy shit is going to become a lot more valuable over the course of the Waystones project.

(Boney, without any comment on the value judgments in play, is the sort of "use the Library's purchasing agents to insert our own spies into new and exciting places" synergy something Mathilde might be able to do with control of both organizations?)

Derpmind · Apr 29, 2021

The biggest drain on our AP was always the tasks given to us by Mathilde's superiors. We always spent as many actions on that turn's project as we felt would give a good result. And the biggest demand on our AP was to do personal research actions. But in the next Act of this quest, Mathilde is going to be her own boss. We'll be able to choose what's time limited, what can wait, and we'll have the ability to delegate some tasks. Mathilde is also getting her own personal Research Branch that she can use to work through many of the research actions that have built up over time. So we are in some sense getting everything we could ask for in terms of AP management. (Including some kind of rework for half-AP.)

Boney · Apr 29, 2021

picklepikkl said:
(Boney, without any comment on the value judgments in play, is the sort of "use the Library's purchasing agents to insert our own spies into new and exciting places" synergy something Mathilde might be able to do with control of both organizations?)

As Head Librarian Mathilde would have as much control as she wanted over staffing decisions, so would be able to make that happen.

Valmond · Apr 29, 2021

[X] (LIBRARY) Head Librarian
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks / Kron-Azril-Ungol / The Archive of the Silvery Depths
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch for Esoteric Research

And that tip's it.
I have gone from being ok with being head librarian to being actually interested in being one.

Big Russ · Apr 29, 2021

[X] (LIBRARY) High-level policy
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) World's Memory / Karaz Kron

Rafin · Apr 29, 2021

BoneyM said:
Being head librarian is her choosing maximal involvement in the library, not some 'ethically questionable' bare minimum. Mathilde wanting to make decisions about the reward she is being given is not morally equivalent to abusing a charitable organization, and I really don't like that sort of extremely loaded argument being introduced here, nor do I like what you're indirectly saying about everyone that's voting for that option.

I might have misspoken and I apologize. The Library is qualitatively different from a charitable organization and abuse wasn't what I was trying to allude to. But I acknowledge that that's how I came over in my argument.

Also, I definitely do not want to imply moral failings on the side of any of the players, regardless of their choice. This is a game of cooperative fiction. Even if some voters decided to choose what would be IRL ethically problematic decisions, that is perfectly valid and in no way a negative mark on aanyone's character. Like, nobody here thinks that Omegahugger is a bad person, just because they voted in favor of corrupting Abelheim's freshly fallen body into a half-living abomination by using all-corrupting Dhar and advertising the location of the Liber Mortis in Sylvania.
Not that the current situation is in any way comparable to that.

To put my position in less loaded terms, head librarian is a job title and the library in question is one that seems important to me. If we take on that title and then only treat it as another useful institution that costs us a half-action, then that seems incongruent to me, even if possible without negative consequences to us or anyone we care about.

Maximal involvement implies expending effort and sacrificing time. People can be in favor of that, but I am not. Taking the possibility for maximal involvement by becoming the manager, but then limiting involvement in practice is also something that people can be in favor of and that I am not, for different reasons.

This is a more fair way of expressing my argument, I think.

Redshirt Army said:
Surely according to you the "minimal effort for maximal reward" choice would be the "high-level policy" choice, since you seem to think it'll let us have our AP and eat it too?

Less facetiously, I think you're just flatly wrong about the level of investment each choice corresponds to - you've said that you think that high-level policy is about equivalent to our involvement in the EIC and that head librarian is about equivalent to our full-time job, but that just isn't the case.

Head librarian corresponds to investment equivalent to our EIC involvement (and thus costs the same amount of AP), and high-level policy just lets us have a policy vote every two or so years (and thus costs no AP).

I would honestly be surprised if high-level policy were completely AP neutral. And the option wouldn't be about the reward for me, because I don't think it would have much more in the way of tangible reward than hands-off, i.e. lots of books on lots of topics for everyone within reach. It would just allow us to shape our legacy in more detail than the charter alone.

As for being flatly wrong, that might be true, especially with the latest QM clarifications. I might have just been too literal with what I read in the description.

To me Head Librarian means CEO of the Library, with all that that entails. Similar to how Governor of Swamptown means mayor of that outpost, with all that that entails. And I also took "maximal involvement" to mean, well, not literally that, but still more than a mere voluntary oversight position taking the equivalent of one work-day each week on average.

High-level policy on the other hand I saw as being the equivalent of being the most important voice on the board of directors that only speaks up when they feel the need for it. I still think that that's what it is, since I haven't seen anything on the contrary.

Boney · Apr 29, 2021

Rafin said:
I would honestly be surprised if high-level policy were completely AP neutral.

BoneyM said:
[ ] (LIBRARY) High-level policy
Mathilde will be able to make decisions such as location, selecting a Head Librarian, and setting broad policies, but will not have day-to-day control over the library, so it will not consume any meaningful amount of Mathilde's time.

Costing APs would, as I'm sure everyone would agree, be meaningful.

Bucarcar · Apr 29, 2021

[x] (LIBRARY NAME) World's Memory / Karaz Kron
[x] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch for Esoteric Research
[x] (LIBRARY) High-level policy

Redshirt Army · Apr 29, 2021

Rafin said:
To me Head Librarian means CEO of the Library, with all that that entails. Similar to how Governor of Swamptown means mayor of that outpost, with all that that entails.

This seems like an odd conclusion to reach, since "Governor of Swamptown" was explicitly described a possibility for our next main task, whereas Head Librarian was explicitly described as a Half-AP institutional action.

Rafin · Apr 29, 2021

BoneyM said:
Costing APs would, as I'm sure everyone would agree, be meaningful.

I... missed that.

Redshirt Army said:
This seems like an odd conclusion to reach, since "Governor of Swamptown" was explicitly described a possibility for our next main task, whereas Head Librarian was explicitly described as a Half-AP institutional action.

I went by the title, description and IC implications as I saw them, rather than by how much emphasis the QM put on the importance of the vote. As in, a choice to take on a secondary task next to the main task, like if we had made a College Branch that is neither about Waystones nor about our research backlog.

Which was a mistake.

-

In the end I think that the root of my reluctance towards the head librarian position might have from the very beginning been due to a very different perspective and idea of what the Library was supposed to be, compared to most. And all these months of how this thing looked in my mind might have strongly colored my arguments and my stubbornness.

For me the Library was always first and foremost a legacy statement, and only a useful tool as a secondary benefit. I cared much more about how it will look and affect the world a century from now than how it will help us right now. At the same time I never saw it as something Mathilde does and more like something she commissions and then puts her name on a plaque on it after making sure that it is exactly what she wants it to be and finally spending a lot of time just using it as any other citizen or visitor would.
Thus also my grasping at an argument that compares it to a charity. Because in my mind I guess it kind of was, all this time that we talked about it.

Turns out that either after the last bouts of arguments or maybe even since the beginning this simply isn't the majority viewpoint. And so my arguments might look quite weird and even off-putting to many.

And with that I have said all I can about this topic. I still prefer high-level policy, but it is what it is. I'll respond to responses, but I'll stop jumping into arguments about this. Just vote for whatever y'all think will be most fun and I'm sure it will also be fun for me.

Night_stalker · Apr 29, 2021

[X] (LIBRARY) Head Librarian
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks / Kron-Azril-Ungol / The Archive of the Silvery Depths
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch for Esoteric Research

MonkeyTypewriter · Apr 29, 2021

[X] (LIBRARY) High-level policy

Claudiu26@@ · Apr 29, 2021

[X] (LIBRARY) High-level policy

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Cannon Fodder

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