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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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I backed away largely from the faith angle, as the big problem with it is that it is solely passive. These people are agitated though. They are itching to do something, not sit around and wait for the inevitable.
So we should rather channel that energy and give them a new purpose. Preferably one that aligns with our own desires.

Thus, I'm re-contextualizing both their lives and the Imperium in a way that makes sense under the new paradigm and gives them new purpose and meaning.

[X] Plan Overhauled
-[X] "We speak not of a mortal war here, Minister Tarly. Our enemies are uncountable and their powers vast. Greater even than that of the Genie Realms and held at bay only through their fights among each other. They bleed and they die, but they will pile their bodies higher than the Wall if that is what it takes and they will do so with little hesitation."
-[X] "This is not a war of nobles, where one meets in a field to fight over who owns what strip of land. It is not a war of traders, where ships on the sea harass each other over trade routes and gold. They care not for land. They care not for gold. They care not for us. For them, we are nothing more than ore dug from the ground. Something to be taken, purified and cast into a shape that serves their purposes."
-[X] "This war is a total war. To live is to fight in it, no matter what it is that you do. Every breath we take is defiance of their designs. Every healer is a soldier, fighting day for day to deprive them of what they want to take from us. Every scholar is a soldier, every scrap of knowledge gleamed a chance to forge another blade against our foes. Every artist is a soldier, beating back the despair and keeping our hopes alive so that we fall not prey to their blandishments while we yet live."
-[X] "We can fight this war. We can win this war. To think otherwise is the first step towards defeat. Even as we speak here, we fight this war. Out in the Deep, the Illustrious is being put through her paces while more vessels are worked on in the berths beside her. In the factories, workers labor day and night to fill bombs and shells by the thousands. In Westhaven, soldiers train to hold the line against the onslaught. And there will be more. Weapons greater and more terrible than any man could have dared to imagine. Machines so vast and mighty that even the false gods will learn to fear them."
-[X] "But above all, you must keep the faith. In the Imperium to protect you in life, and in the gods to do so in death. When we are not united. When we waver in our resolve. When all hope seems lost. Then is when they will come to you. Maybe in the flesh. Maybe in your dreams. Maybe as a whisper during your prayers. The will offer you an easy way. They will offer you poison. And if you waver, they will spread it through you."
-[X] "This war is a total war and I have burdened you all with this truth because you too must fight it. Because you too are now soldiers in it. I have forged the Imperium not as a throne for myself, but as another weapon against the darkness around us. And it is through your actions and choices that it will be determined if it will serve that purpose. Before this great and terrible truth of the world, all our labors may seem small and pointless, but only if we labor alone for our own gain. But if are united in mind and purpose, we can fight this war. We can beat them back. And one day, true victory might be within our grasp."
-[X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment to tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
-[X] Explain that Mereth's soul, due to a ritual cutting her off from Baator and which you perform on all fiends and most other Outsiders serving you, will be lost and dissipate, unless some astral predator or fiend snatches it up. It is a detail you could not explain in open session when they objected to Iziku, but you trust their loyalty because they trust you with the fate of their very souls.
 
Ok, since so much has been changed in the new proposal I'm definitely leaving the vote open longer so everyone can have a look and comment. This is an important enough moment to be thoughtful about what you guys say since it is a pretty defining speech for the vision of the Imperium at high levels. This is going to influence everything from faction generation to local policy for years to come
 
Azel said:
I backed away largely from the faith angle, as the big problem with it is that it is solely passive. These people are agitated though. They are itching to do something, not sit around and wait for the inevitable.
So we should rather channel that energy and give them a new purpose. Preferably one that aligns with our own desires.

Thus, I'm re-contextualizing both their lives and the Imperium in a way that makes sense under the new paradigm and gives them new purpose and meaning.

[X] Plan Overhauled
-[X] "We speak not of a mortal war here, Minister Tarly. Our enemies are uncountable and their powers vast. Greater even than that of the Genie Realms and held at bay only through their fights among each other. They bleed and they die, but they will pile their bodies higher than the Wall if that is what it takes and they will do so with little hesitation."
-[X] "This is not a war of nobles, where one meets in a field to fight over who owns what strip of land. It is not a war of traders, where ships on the sea harass each other over trade routes and gold. They care not for land. They care not for gold. They care not for us. For them, we are nothing more than ore dug from the ground. Something to be taken, purified and cast into a shape that serves their purposes."
-[X] "This war is a total war. To live is to fight in it, no matter what it is that you do. Every breath we take is defiance of their designs. Every healer is a soldier, fighting day for day to deprive them of what they want to take from us. Every scholar is a soldier, every scrap of knowledge gleamed a chance to forge another blade against our foes. Every artist is a soldier, beating back the despair and keeping our hopes alive so that we fall not prey to their blandishments while we yet live."
-[X] "We can fight this war. We can win this war. To think otherwise is the first step towards defeat. Even as we speak here, we fight this war. Out in the Deep, the Illustrious is being put through her paces while more vessels are worked on in the berths beside her. In the factories, workers labor day and night to fill bombs and shells by the thousands. In Westhaven, soldiers train to hold the line against the onslaught. And there will be more. Weapons greater and more terrible than any man could have dared to imagine. Machines so vast and mighty that even the false gods will learn to fear them."
-[X] "But above all, you must keep the faith. In the Imperium to protect you in life, and in the gods to do so in death. When we are not united. When we waver in our resolve. When all hope seems lost. Then is when they will come to you. Maybe in the flesh. Maybe in your dreams. Maybe as a whisper during your prayers. The will offer you an easy way. They will offer you poison. And if you waver, they will spread it through you."
-[X] "This war is a total war and I have burdened you all with this truth because you too must fight it. Because you too are now soldiers in it. I have forged the Imperium not as a throne for myself, but as another weapon against the darkness around us. And it is through your actions and choices that it will be determined if it will serve that purpose. Before this great and terrible truth of the world, all our labors may seem small and pointless, but only if we labor alone for our own gain. But if are united in mind and purpose, we can fight this war. We can beat them back. And one day, true victory might be within our grasp."
-[X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment to tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
-[X] Explain that Mereth's soul, due to a ritual cutting her off from Baator and which you perform on all fiends and most other Outsiders serving you, will be lost and dissipate, unless some astral predator or fiend snatches it up. It is a detail you could not explain in open session when they objected to Iziku, but you trust their loyalty because they trust you with the fate of their very souls.
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Ah, nothing quite like a common existential threat to bring everyone under a single banner.
 
[X] Plan "use their expectations and sound sane for now"
-[X] "Gods have saved our souls for millenia, and they will continue to do so. The Imperium has helped old Gods such as Yss and Zathir better understand and shelter mortals. It has fought alongside R'hllor's own armies, and as our strength grows we will not only shield the souls of the living and ensure they are safeguarded by kindly Gods : we will continue to oppose the foes of all life in whatever realms they hide." // This starts on an understandable note (Gods good, yes) and also starts selling our god-crafting plan.
-[X] "I once fought an Archduke of Hell who challenged me over a soul. His skin was made into this cloak, and the souls were freed from his clutches. Victory can be ours, when the time is right and we have the strength to claim it." // Strong visual signifier. Another reminder of our previous victories and personal strength. Useful intro to devil-soul reveal.
-[X] "This war is a total war and I have burdened you all with this truth because you too must fight it. Because just as scholars and healers have their role to play, so too are leaders needed. I have forged the Imperium not as a throne for myself, but as another weapon against the darkness around us. And it is through your actions and choices that our blades will be kept sharp. Before this great and terrible world, all our labors may seem small and pointless, but only if we labor alone for our own gain. But if are united in mind and purpose, we can fight this war. We can build a world inimical to their blandishments and despair. We can beat them back. And one day, true victory will be within our grasp." // Explains why we told them. Give them hope that they can do something.
-[X] "This is a war older than any of us. Your Gods fight for your souls already, and the devils and demons have been busy fighting each other for millennia. The horrors out there are many, but they are not united and they strike each other as often as they strike us. We will win this not by fighting them all at once, but by protecting ourselves and making sure each of our assaults brings us one well-timed step closer to victory for all." // Give them some perspective. Reassure them about the state of the opposition and the fact that this isn't an immediate disaster. And well-timed discreetly suggests we won't invade Hell tomorrow to save the souls of their loved ones.
-[X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment to tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
-[X] Explain that Mereth's soul, due to a ritual cutting her off from Baator and which you perform on all fiends and most other Outsiders serving you, will be lost and dissipate, unless some astral predator or fiend snatches it up. It is a detail you could not explain in open session when they objected to Iziku, but you trust their loyalty because they trust you with the fate of their very souls.

@Azel, your speech is great but IMO it has three issues:
  1. You're striking a too radical note. I went with the "Gods are good" angle because it fits neatly into their frame of reference, and because it's a good angle to take to justify our future God-crafting plan. Saying "let's focus on Gods" and then making a custom God makes a lot of sense, and even though it'll sound like crazy blasphemy to normal people this is a great opportunity to start selling the important people on it. Your plan sounds like a speech to make in the future, not a speech to make right now to terrified people who are afraid of their worldview shattering beneath their feet.
  2. You even do the "build up the fear, then build up the confidence" thing that all your speeches have. That's normally a solid move, but in this case they already are terrified!
  3. It sort of sounds like you're committing us to a war against Hell soon, when that absolutely isn't part of our medium-term plans. We don't want to raise false expectations. Unless you think everyone will pivot smoothly to fighting the Others?
One thing I did like about your plan was the "just living is fighting" and "this is why I told you about this". Including that makes a lot of sense, so I stole the idea :D
I also liked your focus on giant death machines to strike fear in the princes of Hell, but I couldn't quite work that in.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
@Azel, your speech is great but IMO it has three issues:
  1. You're striking a too radical note. I went with the "Gods are good" angle because it fits neatly into their frame of reference, and because it's a good angle to take to justify our future God-crafting plan. Saying "let's focus on Gods" and then making a custom God makes a lot of sense, and even though it'll sound like crazy blasphemy to normal people this is a great opportunity to start selling the important people on it. Your plan sounds like a speech to make in the future, not a speech to make right now to terrified people who are afraid of their worldview shattering beneath their feet.
  2. You even do the "build up the fear, then build up the confidence" thing that all your speeches have. That's normally a solid move, but in this case they already are terrified!
  3. It sounds like you're committing us to a war against Hell soon, when that absolutely isn't part of our medium-term plans. We don't want to raise false expectations. Unless you think everyone will pivot smoothly to fighting the Others?
One thing I did like about your plan was the "just living is fighting" and "this is why I told you about this". Including that makes a lot of sense, so I stole the idea :D
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1. I'll give feedback to your plan in a bit when I have more time.
2. I'm just naturally gifted at writing fascist speeches. I don't do it consciously. I don't even do it in purpose. It's just something I'm rather good at.
3. Unless the Illithid attack and require an immediate response, our first real planar war will be against the Brazen Throne. The guys who render souls down to coinage and raw materials. I was nearly going to hold up a Living Brass coin for effect, but then realized that the throne is so far away from everyone else that it would not work. So the propaganda fits neatly in there.

Edit: Your speech still relies far too heavily on the gods. You will be breeding religious fanatics that way. You are pretty much falling in the line of reasoning that the gods are more important than the state, as the state can not actually protect you and that is a line of reasoning we do absolutely not want to push. This would be different if we had embraced the title of Azor Ahai and were actively pushing certain divinities, but right now, you are saying "listen to the priests, not me" and people will look around and notice that no priests are involved in the Curia and ask why that is. It also undermines the Leviathan from the get go as you instill in people a desire for a true god, not a state made solution.
 
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I can feel THE WARP OVERTAKING ME, IT IS A GOOD PAIN the Warhammer 40k vibes in that Azel post, and I like it.
 
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So, I remember when we talked about making a Divine Champion for the Old Gods, that we didn't want to do that yet, lest they wild out and send it to massacre Andal lords ahead of time. With the conquest done, do we feel like we could do that now?

Also, did Tristifer the Last ever come up again? I remember forever ago Bloodraven managing to keep him from getting out of his tomb, but I don't remember if he ever actually went off.
 
JamesShazbond said:
So, I remember when we talked about making a Divine Champion for the Old Gods, that we didn't want to do that yet, lest they wild out and send it to massacre Andal lords ahead of time. With the conquest done, do we feel like we could do that now?

Also, did Tristifer the Last ever come up again? I remember forever ago Bloodraven managing to keep him from getting out of his tomb, but I don't remember if he ever actually went off.
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He is still tucked in his tomb, if you guys need a Sword Wight with with I think 6 levels of fighter and a magic hamer, just ask, Bloodraven can open the tomb on that. He comes with a free army of low level undead.
 
well getting him and those undead out will be a good thing either way, keeping a sealed evil tomb in the riverlands is a bad idea all around anyway
 
DragonParadox said:
He is still tucked in his tomb, if you guys need a Sword Wight with with I think 6 levels of fighter and a magic hamer, just ask, Bloodraven can open the tomb on that. He comes with a free army of low level undead.
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didn't king Tristifer Mudd win like 99 consecutive battles in life making him one of the most accomplished first man warlords ever , how is he only level 6 fighter wight ? shouldn't he be like a level 20 fighter with mythic ranks death knight cursed for failing to fulfil his duty to protect his kingdom , I mean there was a whole interlude dedicated to hyping him up a long while ago
 
mmgaballah said:
didn't king Tristifer Mudd win like 99 consecutive battles in life making him one of the most accomplished first man warlords ever , how is he only level 6 fighter wight ? shouldn't he be like a level 20 fighter with mythic ranks death knight cursed for failing to fulfil his duty to protect his kingdom , I mean there was a whole interlude dedicated to hyping him up a long while ago
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Base Sword Wight HD is 8, add 6 levels of fighter and you have someone who in life was level 14, four levels past the second level cap, in a low magic age.
 
Can we do it simple?

[X] "Yes they do."
-[X] "Even their lords." Fiddle with your cloak. "An Archduke's hide is a hell of a source material."
-[X] "Do you wish to take the fight to them? Why do you think I had this Imperium formed?"
 
Takesis said:
Can we do it simple?

[X] "Yes they do."
-[X] "Even their lords." Fiddle with your cloak. "An Archduke's hide is a hell of a source material."
-[X] "Do you wish to take the fight to them? Why do you think I had this Imperium formed?"
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A bit too simple. This is not Buttercup putting on a show and these people on the ragged edge of their endurance to not expect to be entertained around the campfire. They need answers and they want hope.
 
Takesis said:
Can we do it simple?

[X] "Yes they do."
-[X] "Even their lords." Fiddle with your cloak. "An Archduke's hide is a hell of a source material."
-[X] "Do you wish to take the fight to them? Why do you think I had this Imperium formed?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's basically my plan at this point :D
Well, "my plan". Considering how the vote went, it's "the plan I made and Azel adapted & expanded before I amended it again, which I am now voting for".
 
@DragonParadox, I don't think this is going to turn.

Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Apr 29, 2021 at 7:46 AM, finished with 96 posts and 30 votes.
  • [X] Plan Overhauled
    -[X] "We speak not of a mortal war here, Minister Tarly. Our enemies are uncountable and their powers vast. Greater even than that of the Genie Realms and held at bay only through their fights among each other. They bleed and they die, but they will pile their bodies higher than the Wall if that is what it takes and they will do so with little hesitation."
    -[X] "This is not a war of nobles, where one meets in a field to fight over who owns what strip of land. It is not a war of traders, where ships on the sea harass each other over trade routes and gold. They care not for land. They care not for gold. They care not for us. For them, we are nothing more than ore dug from the ground. Something to be taken, purified and cast into a shape that serves their purposes."
    -[X] "This war is a total war. To live is to fight in it, no matter what it is that you do. Every breath we take is defiance of their designs. Every healer is a soldier, fighting day for day to deprive them of what they want to take from us. Every scholar is a soldier, every scrap of knowledge gleamed a chance to forge another blade against our foes. Every artist is a soldier, beating back the despair and keeping our hopes alive so that we fall not prey to their blandishments while we yet live."
    -[X] "We can fight this war. We can win this war. To think otherwise is the first step towards defeat. Even as we speak here, we fight this war. Out in the Deep, the Illustrious is being put through her paces while more vessels are worked on in the berths beside her. In the factories, workers labor day and night to fill bombs and shells by the thousands. In Westhaven, soldiers train to hold the line against the onslaught. And there will be more. Weapons greater and more terrible than any man could have dared to imagine. Machines so vast and mighty that even the false gods will learn to fear them."
    -[X] "But above all, you must keep the faith. In the Imperium to protect you in life, and in the gods to do so in death. When we are not united. When we waver in our resolve. When all hope seems lost. Then is when they will come to you. Maybe in the flesh. Maybe in your dreams. Maybe as a whisper during your prayers. The will offer you an easy way. They will offer you poison. And if you waver, they will spread it through you."
    -[X] "This war is a total war and I have burdened you all with this truth because you too must fight it. Because you too are now soldiers in it. I have forged the Imperium not as a throne for myself, but as another weapon against the darkness around us. And it is through your actions and choices that it will be determined if it will serve that purpose. Before this great and terrible truth of the world, all our labors may seem small and pointless, but only if we labor alone for our own gain. But if are united in mind and purpose, we can fight this war. We can beat them back. And one day, true victory might be within our grasp."
    -[X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment to tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
    -[X] Explain that Mereth's soul, due to a ritual cutting her off from Baator and which you perform on all fiends and most other Outsiders serving you, will be lost and dissipate, unless some astral predator or fiend snatches it up. It is a detail you could not explain in open session when they objected to Iziku, but you trust their loyalty because they trust you with the fate of their very souls.
    [X] Plan "use their expectations and sound sane for now"
    -[X] "Gods have saved our souls for millenia, and they will continue to do so. The Imperium has helped old Gods such as Yss and Zathir better understand and shelter mortals. It has fought alongside R'hllor's own armies, and as our strength grows we will not only shield the souls of the living and ensure they are safeguarded by kindly Gods : we will continue to oppose the foes of all life in whatever realms they hide." // This starts on an understandable note (Gods good, yes) and also starts selling our god-crafting plan.
    -[X] "I once fought an Archduke of Hell who challenged me over a soul. His skin was made into this cloak, and the souls were freed from his clutches. Victory can be ours, when the time is right and we have the strength to claim it." // Strong visual signifier. Another reminder of our previous victories and personal strength. Useful intro to devil-soul reveal.
    -[X] "This war is a total war and I have burdened you all with this truth because you too must fight it. Because just as scholars and healers have their role to play, so too are leaders needed. I have forged the Imperium not as a throne for myself, but as another weapon against the darkness around us. And it is through your actions and choices that our blades will be kept sharp. Before this great and terrible world, all our labors may seem small and pointless, but only if we labor alone for our own gain. But if are united in mind and purpose, we can fight this war. We can build a world inimical to their blandishments and despair. We can beat them back. And one day, true victory will be within our grasp." // Explains why we told them. Give them hope that they can do something.
    -[X] "This is a war older than any of us. Your Gods fight for your souls already, and the devils and demons have been busy fighting each other for millennia. The horrors out there are many, but they are not united and they strike each other as often as they strike us. We will win this not by fighting them all at once, but by protecting ourselves and making sure each of our assaults brings us one well-timed step closer to victory for all." // Give them some perspective. Reassure them about the state of the opposition and the fact that this isn't an immediate disaster. And well-timed discreetly suggests we won't invade Hell tomorrow to save the souls of their loved ones.
    -[X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment to tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
    -[X] Explain that Mereth's soul, due to a ritual cutting her off from Baator and which you perform on all fiends and most other Outsiders serving you, will be lost and dissipate, unless some astral predator or fiend snatches it up. It is a detail you could not explain in open session when they objected to Iziku, but you trust their loyalty because they trust you with the fate of their very souls.
    [X] Plan As Talon, But With Mereth
    -[X] "Gods have saved our souls for millenia, and they will continue to do so. The Imperium has helped old Gods such as Yss and Zathir better understand and shelter mortals. It has fought alongside R'hllor's own armies, and as our strength grows we will not only shield the souls of the living and ensure they are safeguarded by kindly Gods : we will continue to oppose the foes of all life in whatever realms they hide."
    -[X] "I once fought an Archduke of Hell who challenged me over a soul. His skin was made into this cloak, and the souls were freed from his clutches. Victory can be ours, when the time is right and we have the strength to claim it."
    -[X] "This is a war older than any of us. Your Gods fight for your souls already, and the Blood War between devils and demons has kept them both busy fighting each other for millennia. The horrors out there are many, but they are not united and they strike each other as often as they strike us. We will win this not by fighting them all at once, but by protecting ourselves and making sure each of our assaults brings us one well-timed step closer to victory for all."
    -[X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment to tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
    -[X] Explain that Mereth's soul, due to a ritual cutting her off from Baator and which you perform on all fiends and most other Outsiders serving you, will be lost and dissipate, unless some astral predator or fiend snatches it up. It is a detail you could not explain in open session when they objected to Iziku, but you trust their loyalty because they trust you with the fate of their very souls.
    [X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment to tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
    [X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment of tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
    -[x] have Yrael and Mereth prepare a presentation for future briefings on the status of the realms.
    [X] "Yes they do."
    -[X] "Even their lords." Fiddle with your cloak. "An Archduke's hide is a hell of a source material."
    -[X] "Do you wish to take the fight to them? Why do you think I had this Imperium formed?"
Click to expand...



TalonofAnathrax said:
That's basically my plan at this point :D
Well, "my plan". Considering how the vote went, it's "the plan I made and Azel adapted & expanded before I amended it again, which I am now voting for".
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This maps a lot closer to my plan. You are for some reason heavily pushing the gods as the main solution, which is a massive pivot from our entire policy so far and will likely cause instability.
 
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Azel said:
@DragonParadox, I don't think this is going to turn.
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Of course it's not going to turn. You got most of those votes overnight when your plan was extremely similar to the one that is now mine. Then you switched to something completely different both in message and in tone, got three votes for it (compared to my two - I think there's nobody voting at this hour). 3 votes vs the 15 you got when you voted for your old plan...

EDIT: Sorry, posted this before seeing DP had closed the vote. Fuck.

Azel said:
This maps a lot closer to my plan. You are for some reason heavily pushing the gods as the main solution, which is a massive pivot from our entire policy so far and will likely cause instability.
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My plan is a lot more reassuring. And the Gods have in fact been our main (secret) policy, that's why we've been researching god-crafting for ages. Permanently destroying Hell? Not something we've considered except as a distant dream. Even ending the Brass Bastard's mistreatment of souls is a plan that deeply relies on Gods + off-Plane allies (although our military does feature there too).

Honestly I'm not saying we shouldn't be growing our army. I just focus the speech on what they can easily imagine, trust and conceptualize (their Gods who have protected them for thousands of years) instead of on mortal armies.

I also don't try to scare them even more before reassuring them. That doesn't seem needed at all in this situation.
 
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