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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Valmond said:
Not having a law/precedent guru should be, i think, fairly exceptional for a king.
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@BoneyM Could you chime in? I know that none of our projects and actions resulted in us having screen time with Loremaster Colleagues from other Holds, but could you give us a few random examples of current Loremasters from other Holds (old and new) that Mathilde would at least know their specialization about them? I'm thinking maybe one of the princes on Belegar's Council mentioning how it is back home, or Thorek talking about why he is or isn't Loremaster of Karak Azul or her having gotten curious about it in the various times she had dealings with Zhufbar or Barak Varr.
Anything to give us more insight than the current speculation based on only specific mentions of deficit for Belegar and the presented alternates for the Loremaster job back when we first chose it (who were Prince Gotri the radical Engineer and a certain Runesmith called Kraggi senior by the way, neither of them legalists).
Valmond said:
Loremaster was presented as the traditional third in command when we retook K8P, dawi are also very big on tradition.
That said, even if runesmith or an engineer would be equally likely to have the spot, Mathilde is neither of those either.
And even if there was no Loremaster in the council proper, a king would almost cetainly have one at hand to consult on legal matters.
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Fourth in command. King->Generalist Military Commander->Specialist Military Commander->Loremaster. I assume that for only Barak Varr specifically the lines between who is the generalist and who is the specialist is blurry and that the Naval Admiral might take precedence if the Hold is attacked by sea.
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BoneyM said:
6. Yes. All Dwarfholds split their military into two groups, K8P and KaK use army and air force as the two divisions.

Barak Varr: Army and Navy

Karak Hirn: Conventional and Rangers

Karak Izor: Conventional and allied holds

Zhufbar: Conventional and Ironbreakers & Artillery

Karak Kadrin: Conventional and Slayer

Karak Norn: Athel Loren-related and Other

Karak Azul: Offence and Defence
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Valmond said:
Also, i have no memory of the bolded being stated, do you remember when it came up?
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When we first took the job.
 
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I think this vote really shows the limit of approval voting. I think a ton of people are voting strategically for things they are okay with just too avoid choices they dislike, rather than voting for those they really like.

At least that's how I do it (sort-of), as I'm frequently checking the tally to see whether Markgraf/Tutor might win if I remove my vote for Waystone research, and I've seen a few other posts saying they were doing similar.

The more people are voting strategically, the more the vote loses its value as an accurate measurement of which items votes want to win. The Waystone research is my foruth favourite item, but I'm voting for it alongside the three I prefer because I don't want the ~7th favourite to win. Letting everyone sort their 4 favourites from least to most should solve this conundrum.

…Well, in theory at least. There's always the chance voter fatigue if you have a second vote immediately after the first, or failing to vote in a more complicated system than the fairly foolproof approval voting.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Sure, but those plot threads are better served with Bodyguard, where we have constant access to a powerful priestess of Ranald and dispensation from the Empire to go poke at a variety of Empire things including the Kurnos thing - and it has an overarching goal on top of that.
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Sure, I agree. If your priority is the Kurnos thing, you should vote for Bodyguard. My point to Jyn was just that the L-a-L won't be devoid of overarching plot even if the job doesn't bring a major one of its own, because there are existing wheels in motion inherent to the quest regardless of what job we take.
Silver Gambit said:
the expansion of a side quest that we have been doing
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Genuine question: what are you talking about? We haven't touched Waystones as a quest at all. A hot elf showed up to ask us about it and that's been the entirety of our involvement. We haven't been pursuing it on our own time besides "we took a class once."
 
CuttleFish2.0 said:
I would sincerely suggest that everyone voting start getting comfortable now with their un-favorite options winning. Just... relax.
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picklepikkl said:
After the original list of options came out and we started voting on it, I spent a reasonable amount of time going through the list, thinking about all the ones I didn't want to win, imagining a world in which it had won, and trying to figure out "what aspects of the quest would I still really like" and "what unique aspects of this option would I appreciate despite my opposition to the option as a whole." It was a very good exercise for settling the anxiety that comes with emotional investment in an interactive piece of fiction, and I highly recommend it.
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Gonna chime in here to say that if my absolutely least favorite option won... this would still be a highly enjoyable quest and I'll continue to look forward to every single update. Look at how mechanically and narratively different our adventure turns are from our normal 'advisor' turns. None of the options we're voting for can even compare to how drastic a shift it is when we go into adventure mode (and back.) And yet each time it still remains recognizably the same quest done in BoneyM's style. So I'm not afraid of any option winning, and I don't think you should be either.

This statement sponsored by the Necromancer Lobby. Please consider supporting [ ] Seeking adventure as the second coming of Nagash, searching for ways to overcome the final enemy of life. :V
 
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Valmond said:
Loremaster was presented as the traditional third in command when we retook K8P, dawi are also very big on tradition.
That said, even if runesmith or an engineer would be equally likely to have the spot, Mathilde is neither of those either.
And even if there was no Loremaster in the council proper, a king would almost cetainly have one at hand to consult on legal matters.
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If a legal scholar is so essensial that they are needed even if they don't take a council slot, then I don't see how Belegar is prevented from doing that for us just like he presumably would for a Loremaster Kragg or Groti.

I don't even want loremaster to win and I don't think this argument holds.
 
thisisinsane said:
If a legal scholar is so essensial that they are needed even if they don't take a council slot, then I don't see how Belegar is prevented from doing that for us just like he presumably would for a Loremaster Kragg or Groti.

I don't even want loremaster to win and I don't think this argument holds.
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Thread has tried to suggest hiring a more traditional loremaster to fulfill that part of the job.
I think Boney has made it clear that this is not an option, and either Mathilde steps down in favor of a traditional loremaster, or Belegar goes without and keeps making do with what he has.
 
We don't actually know how badly Belegar needs a traditional loremaster, if at all.
Belegar would happily let Mathilde remain loremaster for the resst of her life even if she never did anything at all, and that makes him less than relaible source of of information on this subject, as he would never say anything that would even imply that it would be best for Mathilde to step aside.
It is possible that there is so little need for legal advisor in K8P that Belegar can do it as a sidegig himself with help of some scribes.
 
torac said:
I think this vote really shows the limit of approval voting. I think a ton of people are voting strategically for things they are okay with just too avoid choices they dislike, rather than voting for those they really like.

At least that's how I do it (sort-of), as I'm frequently checking the tally to see whether Markgraf/Tutor might win if I remove my vote for Waystone research, and I've seen a few other posts saying they were doing similar.

The more people are voting strategically, the more the vote loses its value as an accurate measurement of which items votes want to win. The Waystone research is my foruth favourite item, but I'm voting for it alongside the three I prefer because I don't want the ~7th favourite to win. Letting everyone sort their 4 favourites from least to most should solve this conundrum.

…Well, in theory at least. There's always the chance voter fatigue if you have a second vote immediately after the first, or failing to vote in a more complicated system than the fairly foolproof approval voting.
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Regular voting isn't that much better imo. I remember one time back in WSiA we were voting for one of three perks, option two was (in my opinion) the objectively best one but so many people were strategically voting for options one and three that option two was ~20 votes behind at one point (out of a voter base of like 50 at the time iirc). We managed to talk it out and get option two (which I'm thankful for, that became such a staple of our character) but that only happened because of how active the voterbase was. I highly doubt that we could do anything similar with 514 voters.

514. Never though I'd ever see those numbers.

Ideally we would have done Ranked Voting, but I speak from experience in saying that it confuses people and Boney was valid about fearing it would probably drive voters away. Also, strategic voting still happens with it, it just involves a lot of math and even more vote editing.
 
Valmond said:
Because it has been a point that Belegar does not have a traditional lore master, and chooses to go without in order to keep Mathilde in the role.

Also, i have no memory of the bolded being stated, do you remember when it came up?
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If you won't accept the precedent of Belegar forming his council then I don't have any quotes on hand no. It wasn't presented as an anomaly though.

Valmond said:
Thread has tried to suggest hiring a more traditional loremaster to fulfill that part of the job.
I think Boney has made it clear that this is not an option, and either Mathilde steps down in favor of a traditional loremaster, or Belegar goes without and keeps making do with what he has.
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What he makes do with now are loremasters, they're just sourced from his clan structure rather than his council structure, and represent an additional tax on his time to utilize, as they have less prestige in their own right so he has to do more of the frontmanning.
 
[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] The Waystone Project
[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[X] Spymaster of Wissenland
[X] Ambassador-at-Large to the Karaz Ankor
[X] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
[X] Ranaldian High Priest of Kislev
[X] Nagarythe


I vote for the options I'd like to read.
 
torac said:
I think this vote really shows the limit of approval voting. I think a ton of people are voting strategically for things they are okay with just too avoid choices they dislike, rather than voting for those they really like.

At least that's how I do it (sort-of), as I'm frequently checking the tally to see whether Markgraf/Tutor might win if I remove my vote for Waystone research, and I've seen a few other posts saying they were doing similar.

The more people are voting strategically, the more the vote loses its value as an accurate measurement of which items votes want to win. The Waystone research is my foruth favourite item, but I'm voting for it alongside the three I prefer because I don't want the ~7th favourite to win. Letting everyone sort their 4 favourites from least to most should solve this conundrum.

…Well, in theory at least. There's always the chance voter fatigue if you have a second vote immediately after the first, or failing to vote in a more complicated system than the fairly foolproof approval voting.
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"What option is most people's favorite" is not the only metric that matters though. "What option has the most people being generally okay with it" could be considered just as valuable. Like, if if Swamp Town won while at the same time everyone who didn't vote for it has disparate favorites while also really hating the idea of leaving everything behind more than anything else, then that would be a problem.
But yes, I think we have all now acknowledged that in a perfect vacuum with attentive, informed, frictionless and spherical voters the instant-runoff system would be superior by a bit.
Valmond said:
Belegar's choice was somewhat limited by who was on hand, and he is not exactly one for traditional picks. *looks at Mathilde*
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I would laugh my ass off if he replaces us with Kraggi Senior or Panoramia or Max.
As for limited choices, if Belegar wasn't Belegar then one of the potential options should definitely have been whatever wise Elder in Clan Angrund is currently carrying our weight.
 
I'd be pretty surprised if Belegar hires a "traditional" loremaster. His biggest issues right now are economic and diplomatic problems, not legal issues. (And the Okral has already left, so that situation did end up being handled.) Even now that armed conflict has died down and with a lack of magical Weird Stuff to deal with, it's still a new hold that needs someone willing to find new solutions to new problems rather than look into legal precedent for old solutions to old problems. That's a call for an enterprising Runesmith or Engineer; heck, maybe Francesco Caravello would have a shot at the job since he's been leading the Undumgi and managing Karag Nar as Viceroy.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
If you won't accept the precedent of Belegar forming his council then I don't have any quotes on hand no. It wasn't presented as an anomaly though.
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Belegar is not traditional king, he did not form his council in traditional circumstances.
You are trying to extrapolate from a single example, which is not really a good thing best of times.
Thomasfoolery said:
What he makes do with now are loremasters, they're just sourced from his clan structure rather than his council structure, and represent an additional tax on his time to utilize, as they have less prestige in their own right so he has to do more of the frontmanning.
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I believe they were described as scribes?
They might (or might not) be on the same professional track as a traditional loremaster, but wether they are undergrads, recent graduates, or someone who has got a PHD equivalent, we don't know.
And Belegars time is not infinite, time he spends loremastering is time he does not spend resting, or doing his actual duties.
 
As far as non-favorite options, I'll be pretty cool with everything. For me it's Loremaster>Markgraf>Waystones>Bodyguard, but I won't really complain regardless - though if Bodyguard wins, I'll likely be consistently arguing against getting too involved in Empire politics.

Part of it perhaps is that I really like Johann, and want us to go on more adventures with him, which is most likely in Loremaster...
 
Valmond said:
Belegar is not traditional king, he did not form his council in traditional circumstances.
You are trying to extrapolate from a single example, which is not really a good thing best of times.
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Indeed he didn't and there were options that were clearly called out as being clear breaks, those weren't among them. I distinctly also remember it being mentioned that other holds do this as well but I don't have time to hunt down a specific quote.

BoneyM said:
Depends on the hold. Some are practically lifetime appointments, others will switch up every ten years or so to focus on the problems the Hold faces or to give all prominent Clans representation.
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This you could say is relatively solid evidence for it though.

Valmond said:
I believe they were described as scribes?
They might (or might not) be on the same professional track as a traditional loremaster, but wether they are undergrads, recent graduates, or someone who has got a PHD equivalent, we don't know.
And Belegars time is not infinite, time he spends loremastering is time he does not spend resting, or doing his actual duties.
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He has a fully functional clan, that means he has access to loremasters.

It is indeed not infinite. You can decide that the value add of Mathilde bringing in massive prestige to his hold isn't worth the time cost it imposes in other areas. But that is by no means a straightforward argument to make.
 
Honestly, I do believe that it is still a bit too early for the waystone project. If possible, I would have liked to start it only after the elfcation so we would have contacts with ulthuan that we can reach out to support the project. The main reason that I am still voting for it is that it is currently the best way to beat the loremaster option.

My issue is that the loremaster option feels sort of aimless to me. With that I mean that the other 3 winning options all come with a goal and a set of challenges.

The Waystone project wants to understand/repair waystones, so they can help against the Chaos. The challenges are that this is a really hard project, getting sponsors to back this project, getting different factions to work together and going on adventures to secure Waystones.

The Markgraf project aims to remove the vampires, their influence and mortal backers from the region. This includes fighting vs vampires, intrigue actions to find them and their backers/followers. It also includes wrangling with nobles and other factions in the region and helping the people adapt to living without vampire overlords.

The tutor option aims to protect and raise Mandred, as well as securing support for him as the next emperor. This includes preventing assassination attempts, making sure he gets taught properly (I would see Mandred turning out an inept ruler as a failure on our part), still keeps to ranald in the face of sigmarites trying to turn him to their faith and going on adventures to secure the votes of other electors.

to be fair, the loremaster position could aim to make Belegar into Thorgrim's heir. As in, go on adventures to secure the support of the other kings. Diplomance Thorgrim into liking Belegar and probably Intrigue to disgrace whoever is the current heir.

However, my impression of the thread sentiment in favour of the loremaster position, it is mostly about the adventure and our friendship with Belegar, while i dont see much support for getting friendly with the current high king for example. So my impression is that if Loremaster wins, it will mostly turn the quest into a series of fun but ultimately aimless mini-adventures.
 
A thought: to satisfy everyone voting for 4 different, nearly tied jobs, we need a spell that lets us blur the line between taking a job and not taking it :V
 
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