- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] Azel
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
- Location
- Africa
no , he did this to Tyrion because he both hated him and had no respect nor care for him beyond his usefulness while Gerion on the other hand is his brother and he did bring both honor and prestige to the Lanister name through his expedition to Valariya so Tywin would respect him enough to know better that to try this with him pulse Tywin's decision making is incredibly biased when Tyrion is involved but he would not have the same degree of bias when dealing with his other family members effecting his better judgment
- Location
- ?????????
True. His hate boner for Tyrion makes him extremely irrational...like ridiculously so. So I will retract that part of the statement.
lancelot
Completely worth it
Rather then use this situation for another unneeded set of 'hard men making hard choices' and another unneeded step closer to the moral event horizon for the sake of expediency.
It wouldn't be that hard to compare Tywin to Viserys's Father. Only more monstrous, smarter, and slightly less insane at this point. Also as of now the Lannisters have been SLAVES for months at least.
To just throw them aside and do nothing for them despite knowing their victims all for the sake of expediency... those laws we're so proud of won't be worth the paper their printed on. It'll be common knowledge that under the slightest stress we'll piss on our own laws and betray damn near everything this empire stands for. FROM DAY ONE.
It wouldn't be that hard to compare Tywin to Viserys's Father. Only more monstrous, smarter, and slightly less insane at this point. Also as of now the Lannisters have been SLAVES for months at least.
To just throw them aside and do nothing for them despite knowing their victims all for the sake of expediency... those laws we're so proud of won't be worth the paper their printed on. It'll be common knowledge that under the slightest stress we'll piss on our own laws and betray damn near everything this empire stands for. FROM DAY ONE.
- Location
- Germany
I don't think that's an option.
As we have seen in the Tygett interlude the thought of surrender never even crossed his mind, even when the inevitability of his defeat did occur to him.
And Lanna is in a far stronger position in terms of doing something about the compulsion, if she had noticed it and could have thought around it even for a time, at least stuff like Lesser Wish, maybe even Wish, is in her reach after all.
And she was clearly thinking about defection or replacing Tywin before the enchantment was in place.
I think we should assume that these people had no choice in all that happened over the last few months and thus treat them like we would treat any Lannister that took no part in this conflict against us (which still means loosing any titles, but no further punishment I think?).
Edit: As an aside, I doubt Lanna will die to NPCs, she should have good equipment, she's a crafter after all, which means several options to escape bad situations, some contingencies in case of sudden injuries and so on. I see it as being similarly unlikely to a Companion dying to mooks.
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- Location
- ?????????
I wonder where Tywin got the power to do something like this. This level of resilience installed in a mind control effect on already living beings should take a massively powerful being to pull off.
Its happens literally every time we take over an area via force. This is an area where Viserys and co are huge hypocrites.
I think you're severly underestimating Lanna here. I'd be surprised if she wasn't a legitimate archmage at this point.
Tygett is not remotely unique. He is in the same boat as all other Lanninsters who served Tywin loyally before the brain control happened. Which is most of them.
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
All jokes aside this is some supremely fucked up shit.
People may talk trash about us and our use of the forge (well they did before we blitzkrieged and entire continent), but this, this feels like something you'd see from our ancestors.
Genetic loyalty, biologically enforced, and so strong that only a god could hope to disrupt it? That's the kinda shit you cannot get for cheap and cannot do without a lot of someone's blood on your hands.
Lord only knows how many humans they had to mentally and physically break before they could get this right.
[X] Azel
- Location
- Africa
true the rest of Tywin's family are innocent in that they were just following orders they could not disobey but we're still going to attain the Lanister family of everything they have though both to neutralize them as a threat , make a point to the other lords paramount that no matter how old and storied your house is we can and will reduce you to nothing if you go against us , also accounting how other members of house Lanister did go against us before Tywin bound them and finally to piss Tywin off from beyond the grave
- Location
- Germany
If you don't like "hard men making hard decisions while hard" then stop trying to come up with excuses for all the awful shit Viserys did for the sake of power. The problem is not the act being done, but that the narrative keeps warping to justify it. I have never claimed that it was Good or Moral or Necessary to turn Grassfield Keep into rubble with everyone within. You are the one who tries to make Viserys into some kind of principled paragon instead of accepting that he fucked over thousands and thousands of people and keeps making deals with utterly amoral bastards like Zherys or literal devils.
- Location
- Germany
Fair enough, but I'm against this "nobody is responsible for anything"-narrative that is beginning to be peddled here.
Lanna most definitely did her fair share to enable Tywin, like casting Mark of Justice and Geas over and over to force the Golen Shields into compliance. I'm not going to absolve everyone of everything just because Tywin screwed them over in the end.
- Location
- Africa
I can't see her consenting to being bound to Tywin in such a way and of she was an arch mage she most certainly would have been able to resist being bound also its unlikely that she has had much chance to level up after her return form the expedition
- Location
- Germany
[X] Plan The Usual, including the usual stance on enchantment
-[X] The Red Cloaks and the Knights can choose between the Wall and a noose.
-[X] As the Wizards were forced into compliance by Geasa, they won't be branded as traitors. They will be given to the Inquisition to be debriefed (and some mental checks to make sure they are no sleeper agents) and then released.
-[X] Tygett will be bottled and then handed over to the Inquisition. They will use the Gates to immediately bring him to the Imperial Palace and it's maximum security holding cells for in-depth interrogation, mental checks and mind reading by Bloodraven. Once he is free (if Tywin's death does achieve that), he'll get whatever treatment we decide on for Lannisters that were innocent of any particular crimes besides sharing the name.
-[X] The Red Cloaks and the Knights can choose between the Wall and a noose.
-[X] As the Wizards were forced into compliance by Geasa, they won't be branded as traitors. They will be given to the Inquisition to be debriefed (and some mental checks to make sure they are no sleeper agents) and then released.
-[X] Tygett will be bottled and then handed over to the Inquisition. They will use the Gates to immediately bring him to the Imperial Palace and it's maximum security holding cells for in-depth interrogation, mental checks and mind reading by Bloodraven. Once he is free (if Tywin's death does achieve that), he'll get whatever treatment we decide on for Lannisters that were innocent of any particular crimes besides sharing the name.
- Location
- Germany
Casterly Rock is warded against Teleportation and Ethereal travel, so she can't really flee and action economy is a thing.
Unless she somehow turns out to be a LVL 20 MR 5 mage, I'm pretty sure the small army we are sending down there will be able to kill her.
@Artemis1992, I've removed the judgement part so that we can decide after he was properly interrogated. I'd kindly ask you to do the same.
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It seems unlikely she is MR anything. That kind of thing is not easy to hide.
- Location
- Africa
[X] Azel
- Location
- Germany
Planeshift too, since Sha'ir can always do that?
Might be hard to prevent that while also keeping the portals to the Plane of Earth open.
Aside from that, my first choice would be some variety of Earthglide or Xorn Movement to get out of the range of the prohibiting effect and then a Teleport/Planeshift.
- Location
- Germany
Planeshift is blocked too. We checked his over when we were looking how to infiltrate the place. Earthglide should work, but question is if our troops wouldn't pursue since they would have no reason to assume Lanna to not pop up again and attack from a different angle.
However, this assumes she wants to flee in the first place. If the binding is actually as tight as you think, she would fight to the death. If she could overrule it like I assume Tygett could have done, then she could flee, but that would make her also responsible for having not surrendered immediately, so we are back at charging her with treason.
- Pronouns
- He
On the subject of Viserys morality:
- Beyond Morality (Ex): You have no alignment. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Can we just accept that Viserys is an awful fuckung person, and is only seen in better light because of the Literal Devils, Brain-Eating Squids, and Tywin being the closest forces of comparison on the Plane?
We are playing a mostly-competent character, do we are arguably better than the Westerosi Lords.
We are reasonably liberal on most of our laws, and we aren't trying to kill/enslave everything there is.
...Sheesh, low bar.
Children die because of our actions IC all the time.
That keep a few updates back is just the most recent one.
And you know why it isn't brought up ad attention point IC?
Because it. Doesnt. Matter.
It is long past the time to accept that the super-old "ViserYs CaN'T StanD SeEiINg ChiLdREn HurT!"-premise doesn't fucking work, it outright works against the story because of the dissonance it keeps causing among the players by now.
It is not quite yet at the "Syrax Vision Interrupt'-levels of stupid, but is getting there.
We gotta either accept that by now all Viserys would have is distaste for children dying, and not an outright hate-boner, or we'll keep arguing circles, never coming to any resolution.
We are playing a mostly-competent character, do we are arguably better than the Westerosi Lords.
We are reasonably liberal on most of our laws, and we aren't trying to kill/enslave everything there is.
...Sheesh, low bar.
Children die because of our actions IC all the time.
That keep a few updates back is just the most recent one.
And you know why it isn't brought up ad attention point IC?
Because it. Doesnt. Matter.
It is long past the time to accept that the super-old "ViserYs CaN'T StanD SeEiINg ChiLdREn HurT!"-premise doesn't fucking work, it outright works against the story because of the dissonance it keeps causing among the players by now.
It is not quite yet at the "Syrax Vision Interrupt'-levels of stupid, but is getting there.
We gotta either accept that by now all Viserys would have is distaste for children dying, and not an outright hate-boner, or we'll keep arguing circles, never coming to any resolution.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
This highlights my issue with Lanna. While it is looking increasingly likely that for at least a few months, if not longer, she was bound into the involuntary Lannister hivemind, that was not always the case.
Initially, it is understandable why she and Gerion remained allies with Tywin. He provided a power base, manpower, and money. And he was family. None of those can be ignored. Eventually, however, she grew in personal power and ability to the point where she no longer needed to rely on Tywin's resources, either for her own safety or that of her children. We even saw that she had serious misgivings about the course Tywin was plotting and feared for her children's fate because of it.
It was at that point, when she had the ability and motivation to leave but chose not to, before the binding was enacted, that I have trouble getting past. She was complicit in shit long before the hive mind became a thing. While I wouldn't completely rule out her surviving the conquest, either through capture or surrender, and then going on to remain free and allowed to live within the Imperium, that has become an increasingly unlikely scenario.
It is too bad she didn't defect when she both had the chance and the inclination to do so. She wouldn't have even needed to join us. The Djinn would have welcomed the services of a powerful Sha'ir mage, and Armun Kelisk is probably one of the safest and most pleasant places to live out among the Planes.
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lancelot
Completely worth it
The devils don't exactly count for an evil act when we work with them only when severed from hell permanently. As seen with the oldest of our Sisters of Battle who are physically, mentally, and spiritually changing from being devils into something else entirely. I consider that one of our greatest successes.
Suicide by imperial soldiers isn't on us anymore then people poisoning their families rather than surrender to us.
Not like you don't take the worst consequences of what we've done and seem to act like it's an excuse to do even more and worse evil shit.
"Oops we fucked up and did some bad shit mostly because we didn't think it through. Oh well guess we've got no reason to do even worse shit, someone hand me that baby I'm feeling hungry."
The difference here is that we know IC and OC that Tywin took a flying leap over the moral event horizon. If we murder a bunch of mind controlled victims when we have other options we'd be pissing on our own laws and making ourselves out to be almost as bad as Tywin. Just because we've made bad and/or needlessly ruthless choices in the past doesn't mean we must continue to make them.
If it ends up that we have no way to save the Lannisters that had no say in anything that Tywin has done with is most of them, then fine at least we tried to follow our own laws and do the smart and decent thing. Hell if Tywin did this to his family then what the hell did he do to his subordinates nobles?
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- Location
- United States
No, Azel just doesn't have any delusions about what we're doing. He brings up that we do blatantly evil shit in the name of gaining power, and doesn't try to justify it with "But we're doing so much good as a result!" The narrative is the weird thing that had the tendency of warping our actions as heroic when they were anything but. Granted, that has definitely died down as of late, but the point stands.
Or maybe this is an excellent excuse to kill off as many Lannisters as possible? I for one will gladly take the chance to get rid of as many malcontents as we can get away with.
- Location
- Germany
This neatly bridges back to the last point. The world is not binary. Lanna could have done a myriad of things. She was not forced to choose only between "serve Tywin, fight Viserys" and "defect to Viserys, betray Tywin". Same with Barristan. He too could have said "I can't fulfill my knightly oaths and my kingsguard oaths since they are in conflict with each other, so to preserve my personal honor, I will take the black". That was an option. You can just walk away from bad situations.
If Lanna had buggered off to Armun Kelisk and written us a nice letter that she vows to stay neutral in our conflict with Tywin, I'd have written her back that this is fine and we will respect that. Done. She would have been out.
Heck, if Tywin then came over and bound her with this enchantment, I would have happily invested resources into helping her.
But she has been complicit with Tywins antics for the longest while and that she was bound before she could defect to us doesn't absolve her of that responsibility. I can accept not holding her accountable for her actions after the binding if it's that tight (though the explanatrion keeps me viewing it as leaving her plenty of leeway). But I'm entirely unwilling to just give her a blank cheque for what she did before.
lancelot
Completely worth it
The problem with this is that with all the mind blanks going around we have no idea what if anything Tywin might have used to force Lanna's compliance before he went in for the family wide mind control. Also the husband she loves is Tywin's brother, who while he doesn't exactly like Tywin from what I remember. Turning your back on our own brother is a bitch. Again assuming Tywin didn't do something horrible to them first. It's been what, over a year or so since we've had a POV from any of them?