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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Supermushu said:
This has very little to do with Rhaella and her treatment- most Westerosi Lords did the same. They merit no respect, but no punishment either
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Selmy wasn't punished though. He just also wasn't given a position of wealth and prestige in the new regime, which is what he was asking for.

He's getting singled out because he swore oaths he didn't keep and in the breaking of them directly assisted in Viserys family being deeply harmed. The objective criminality of it has nothing to do with the emotional impact of it on Viserys.

Semly kneeled before his gods and swore to defend those who couldn't defend themselves regardless of personal risk, then stood and guarded the door while Rhaella was being raped, so he gets to fuck off to somewhere Viserys can't see him.
 
DragonParadox said:
The oaths of a kingsguard are far more strict than those of random lords, they are supposed to be more like those of a Black Brother of the Watch since they are for life and forswearing any other alliance. If a Brother of the Watch breaks their vows, they are made outlaw no ifs and buts, their life forfeit.
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" I, X , hereby swear on my honour and my allegiance to protect the King and his family. I will do my duties until death, and through that time, keep all secrets of the King safe from spread. I will not speak unless spoken to, and I will defend the King's land or pay the price. I will wed no wife, sire no children and hold no land. I will master the gate, pluck the bow, handle the blade and serve my realm: for now and forever".

I don't see anywhere provisions for the oath to protect others FROM the King, nor an obligation to act as the King's moral watchdogs. In fact, it specifically requires a Kingsguard to not act or give counsel unless ordered to.

I also took the liberty of reading the books, and Barristan there hardly sees himself as any sort of hero. He's a tired old man who sees himself as a failure twice over, and merely wants an uncomplicated post protecting a worthy King. Where did this smug, self-assurance come from? I just don't see where Barristan deserves any form of the cold shoulder. If anything, just tell him that the world has moved on and that he can retire in peace.

Edit: I see that the ship has sailed, but I still think that Sandor and Richard patting themselves on the back for being more 'Knightly' than Barristan is Rage-inducing. Richard was a washed-up has-been who has come far *because* he shacked up with us on impulse and we had magic. Sandor was little more than a weapon we fashioned to beat in Gregor Clegane IC and OOC a recipient of the thread's 'Canon Pokemon' amusements.

Even Jaime gets acknowledged by Viserys for his good deeds even if we killed him. If we are going to snub Barristan, I'd at least like a more holistic look at his life and deeds as befits Viserys rather than treating him like a traitor.
 
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Supermushu said:
" I, X , hereby swear on my honour and my allegiance to protect the King and his family. I will do my duties until death, and through that time, keep all secrets of the King safe from spread. I will not speak unless spoken to, and I will defend the King's land or pay the price. I will wed no wife, sire no children and hold no land. I will master the gate, pluck the bow, handle the blade and serve my realm: for now and forever".

I don't see anywhere provisions for the oath to protect others FROM the King, nor an obligation to act as the King's moral watchdogs. In fact, it specifically requires a Kingsguard to not act or give counsel unless ordered to.

I also took the liberty of reading the books, and Barristan there hardly sees himself as any sort of hero. He's a tired old man who sees himself as a failure twice over, and merely wants an uncomplicated post protecting a worthy King. Where did this smug, self-assurance come from? I just don't see where Barristan deserves any form of the cold shoulder. If anything, just tell him that the world has moved on and that he can retire in peace.
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There are two major oaths Ser Barristan swore.

His knightly oaths, and his kingsguard oaths.

His knightly oaths charged him to protect the innocent.
"[Name of knight-to-be], do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children, to obey your captains, your liege lord, and your king, to fight bravely when needed and do such other tasks as are laid upon you, however hard or humble or dangerous they may be?"

It wasn't just him. Every Kingsguard failed this oath when they stood by and did nothing while Aerys raped Rhaella and started burning people. Jaime at least did the right thing in the end and killed Aerys before he could burn the city.

But fine. Barristan swore his Kingsguard oath, that takes precedence over the knightly oath, right? Except it didn't. He betrayed his king and turned his cloak to serve Robert instead. He oh so conveniently forgot that there were still two Targaryens alive in Essos.

This isn't about Barristan seeing himself as a hero, it's about presenting himself as honorable. He is not.
 
Supermushu said:
" I, X , hereby swear on my honour and my allegiance to protect the King and his family. I will do my duties until death, and through that time, keep all secrets of the King safe from spread. I will not speak unless spoken to, and I will defend the King's land or pay the price. I will wed no wife, sire no children and hold no land. I will master the gate, pluck the bow, handle the blade and serve my realm: for now and forever".

I don't see anywhere provisions for the oath to protect others FROM the King, nor an obligation to act as the King's moral watchdogs. In fact, it specifically requires a Kingsguard to not act or give counsel unless ordered to.

I also took the liberty of reading the books, and Barristan there hardly sees himself as any sort of hero. He's a tired old man who sees himself as a failure twice over, and merely wants an uncomplicated post protecting a worthy King. Where did this smug, self-assurance come from? I just don't see where Barristan deserves any form of the cold shoulder. If anything, just tell him that the world has moved on and that he can retire in peace.
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  1. Acknowledging Robert is a breech of that vow in its literal sense, you don't get to pick and choose a king based on who won a battle anymore than a bunch of Night's Watch deserters get to claim the wildling tribe that just overran the Wall is the real Watch
  2. Moving on to the more subjective and Viserys based part of the argument, he is personally disgusted by anyone who aided and abetted in Aerys' self destruction by standing by, maybe that is not resonable from Selmy's perspective but that is how he has felt for a long time
  3. I said he presents as a hero, not that he sees himself as one. He believes there is some great value value in being 'Ser Baristan' when people with Ser before their name and wearing the very cloaks he bore were party to crimes that against one set of vows and arguably against another
 
Supermushu said:
Edit: I see that the ship has sailed, but I still think that Sandor and Richard patting themselves on the back for being more 'Knightly' than Barristan is Rage-inducing. Richard was a washed-up has-been who has come far *because* he shacked up with us on impulse and we had magic. Sandor was little more than a weapon we fashioned to beat in Gregor Clegane IC and OOC a recipient of the thread's 'Canon Pokemon' amusements.

Even Jaime gets acknowledged by Viserys for his good deeds even if we killed him. If we are going to snub Barristan, I'd at least like a more holistic look at his life and deeds as befits Viserys rather than treating him like a traitor.
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It's more that both dislike Barristan for their own reasons -- Ser Richard for him betraying his oaths as Kingsguard and swearing to the Baratheon usurpers, and Sandor just for thinking Ser Barristan is a high and mighty prick. That's it. Neither expressed that they were more "knightly". Hell, Sandor explicitly never wants to be knighted. They only voiced their contempt for the man's hypocrisy.

[X] Azel
 
Duesal said:
There are two major oaths Ser Barristan swore.

His knightly oaths, and his kingsguard oaths.

His knightly oaths charged him to protect the innocent.
"[Name of knight-to-be], do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children, to obey your captains, your liege lord, and your king, to fight bravely when needed and do such other tasks as are laid upon you, however hard or humble or dangerous they may be?"

It wasn't just him. Every Kingsguard failed this oath when they stood by and did nothing while Aerys raped Rhaella and started burning people. Jaime at least did the right thing in the end and killed Aerys before he could burn the city.

But fine. Barristan swore his Kingsguard oath, that takes precedence over the knightly oath, right? Except it didn't. He betrayed his king and turned his cloak to serve Robert instead. He oh so conveniently forgot that there were still two Targaryens alive in Essos.

This isn't about Barristan seeing himself as a hero, it's about presenting himself as honorable. He is not.
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I agree. I'm just not sure that Viserys, who himself takes a very dim view of 'honour' compared to 'victory' would go out of his way to belittle him for it. It's not like Viserys himself has even remotely upheld any ideals of honour or fair play. He did what he needed to win, including false flag operations. As I said before, the world has moved on, and Barristan is behind the times, not a traitor.

Anyway, what's done is done. Onward to the future!

Edit: Though I would like to see Rhaella's perspective on this at some point. Maybe they meet in an interlude later on or something?
 
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Supermushu said:
Edit: I see that the ship has sailed, but I still think that Sandor and Richard patting themselves on the back for being more 'Knightly' than Barristan is Rage-inducing. Richard was a washed-up has-been who has come far *because* he shacked up with us on impulse and we had magic. Sandor was little more than a weapon we fashioned to beat in Gregor Clegane IC and OOC a recipient of the thread's 'Canon Pokemon' amusements.

Even Jaime gets acknowledged by Viserys for his good deeds even if we killed him. If we are going to snub Barristan, I'd at least like a more holistic look at his life and deeds as befits Viserys rather than treating him like a traitor.
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Richard hates basically anyone who turned his cloak and would kick them out of general principle if he were allowed and Sandor hates the institution of knighthood because Gregor was allowed to be one. No one claims they are the ultimate arbitrators of morality, but they are in the context of the story with their own perspectives. From those eyes Baristan does not look good. Maelor for what it's worth just called him and asshole since he had upset Dany.
 
Azel said:
-[X] Tygett will be bottled and then handed over to the Inquisition. They will use the Gates to immediately bring him to the Imperial Palace and it's maximum security holding cells for in-depth interrogation, mental checks and mind reading by Bloodraven. For his actions he will still be branded traitor, but due to the mitigating circumstances he will be sent to the Wall or exiled, not executed.
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I have an idea , Zahir is a god of liberation and there for both powerful and able enough to undo the binding utterly in way that would normally be impossible , would it be possible for best Coatl to back trace the connection back to Tywin and break the binding over the whole Lanister family cause few things pave the way for conquest like a house divided doubly so in times of crises
 
I'd like to add that Selmy is quite openly arrogant and dismissive of everyone around him.

1. He called the rest of the Kingsguard worthless when he was dismissed.
2. He kept lording over other people in Danys services when he joined her.
3. He kept shitting on Jaime for having killed Aerys.

Most importantly though, when Tywin offered him a nice keep and retirement in the Westerlands he spat on the offer and instead went off to "serve a worthy king".

What Barristan wants is to stand around with a prestigious title and be looked up to. That's it. He wants the adoration. He isn't tired because he is old, but because he longer gets all the praise just for existing.
 
Supermushu said:
I agree. I'm just not sure that Viserys, who himself takes a very dim view of 'honour' compared to 'victory' would go out of his way to belittle him for it. It's not like Viserys himself has even remotely upheld any ideals of honour or fair play. He did what he needed to win, including false flag operations. As I said before, the world has moved on, and Barristan is behind the times, not a traitor.

Anyway, what's done is done. Onward to the future!

Edit: Though I would like to see Rhaella's perspective on this at some point. Maybe they meet in an interlude later on or something?
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Normally he wouldn't. It's just that Barristan's action and inaction directly harmed his mother for years, so he wouldn't be inclined to understanding in this case.
 
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