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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
-[X] "I have found it to be the most important part in ruling over such diverse people to accept that they are thus and that deep in their hearts, they will always be different from each other. Too many rulers fancy themselves as the masters of their subjects and that they can shape their very souls with their acts, yet even as the centuries grind their palaces to dust and even extinguish that very culture that brought them forth, people have remained people."
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I suspect that @DragonParadox will have us roll Bluff and not Diplomacy here.
Viserys is in fact explicitly planning to reshape the souls of many of his people (creating Imperial Outsiders, creating an Imperial God and making everyday acts prayers to him). And Viserys does in fact fancy himself the master of his subjects (see the inauguration speech).
At best, I'd have to acknowledge that he isn't planning on removing their free will.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I suspect that @DragonParadox will have us roll Bluff and not Diplomacy here.
Viserys is in fact explicitly planning to reshape the souls of many of his people (creating Imperial Outsiders, creating an Imperial God and making everyday acts prayers to him). And Viserys does in fact fancy himself the master of his subjects (see the inauguration speech).
At best, I'd have to acknowledge that he isn't planning on removing their free will.
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Yeah, but other people thought they could do it while they could not. Unlike Viserys, who is currently working on making the tools necessary to actually do it.
 
Azel said:
[X] Plan That Sounds Only Slightly Megalomanical
-[X] "I have found it to be the most important part in ruling over such diverse people to accept that they are thus and that deep in their hearts, they will always be different from each other. Too many rulers fancy themselves as the masters of their subjects and that they can shape their very souls with their acts, yet even as the centuries grind their palaces to dust and even extinguish that very culture that brought them forth, people have remained people."
-[X] "Take the former slavers living in my realm. I have no illusion that they suddenly found respect for their fellow mans life and freedoms. Some of them always had it and you can tell them apart by how they treated those their culture deemed property with kindness and dignity, while others will always lack it, even if they were not so callous and cruel that justice demanded dark fates for them. But as I know that they will always desire to dominate, to rule and to gain power with little regard for others, I can temper them. Divert their urges to where they have to do good to achieve their desires. Where the best way to gain the influence and prestige they crave is to better the lives of those around them."
-[X] "Likewise there will always be those who wish to be ruled in body, mind and soul, who want to give themselves fully to a cause beyond doubt and question. From those, the worst atrocities might stem, as they will zealously carry out their masters whims, but while I can not force such people to be different than they are, I can make sure their goals are just and beneficial to the realm. Were I to order my Legions to torch a city, I have no illusions that they would not do so for me and I would be a fool to deny that this is the case. But to know that such power exists makes one cautious to exercise it. To be aware of the cost of missteps makes you seek perfection in every deed. So I believe and I made sure that my generals and commanders know this truth too."
-[X] "Even the gods are people in their own sense. They too have their natures and desires, and they too can be bargained with. I have found that for most faiths, that the cruelest and most deplorable acts committed in their names spring not from doctrine and dogma, but from the desires of those seeking to gain dominance through the trapping of faiths. Rare is the faith where the rot comes from the gods themselves and they have no place in this realm. For all others though, common ground can be found and conflict mediated. Have you seen the Temple of Unity during the parade? It is a monument to that ideal. That even the gods of water and fire, death and life, nature and man can coexist. That the gods too can put their differences aside for a greater goal that they share."
-[X] "So, to answer you question, yes. I do find it difficult, but that does not mean impossible. And when I look around myself on days like these, seeing the fruits of these labors, I know that not a single drop of sweat was spilled in vain. A symphony is greater than the sum of it's parts and to figure out how the wild and thundering drum can be woven in with the soft voice of a singer is a small price to pay for the wonders that doing so will bring."
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How's the hand doing, dude?

[X] Azel
 
Azel said:
I'm just presenting the truth in a way they will find reassuring. It's the Plan That Sounds Only Slightly Megalomanical, as opposed to giving them the undiluted truth, which would be the Plan That Sounds Extremely Megalomanical.
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Filtered Viserys: "Well, he certainly has a giant ego, but it seems like he's learned how to rein it in."

Unfiltered Viserys:
 
[X] Azel

Not that I think Viserys is within a hundred miles of humble, but I don't agree with the idea that he's a megalomaniac. Primarily because I think that's the wrong flavor of pride for him. He thinks he has the best vision for the future, and flat out desires power for a number of selfish reasons, but he doesn't come off as obsessed with his own superiority. Viserys also doesn't seem to justify his actions on the basis that he's better than everyone else, he just wants things for his own reasons and pursues them with the means he has available.

It takes an overwhelming amount pride to honestly think your vision is the best one for the entire world, and that you're the best person to see it made real, but the expression of it is different. Viserys isn't even a tenth as obnoxious as an equivalently prideful/powerful megalomaniac would be.
 
BronzeTongue said:
[X] Azel

Not that I think Viserys is within a hundred miles of humble, but I don't agree with the idea that he's a megalomaniac. Primarily because I think that's the wrong flavor of pride for him. He thinks he has the best vision for the future, and flat out desires power for a number of selfish reasons, but he doesn't come off as obsessed with his own superiority. Viserys also doesn't seem to justify his actions on the basis that he's better than everyone else, he just wants things for his own reasons and pursues them with the means he has available.

It takes an overwhelming amount pride to honestly think your vision is the best one for the entire world, and that you're the best person to see it made real, but the expression of it is different. Viserys isn't even a tenth as obnoxious as an equivalently prideful/powerful megalomaniac would be.
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I think it comes off as megalomania because of scale, rather than means of expression. Anyone who has the kind of ambition Viserys does, and then has the sheer balls to tell someone with a straight face this is a reasonable goal or philosophy to have, is probably off their rocker in some respect.

Viserys gets away with it, and only gets away with it because of a combination of two factors:

1) Hypnotic personal magnetism and charisma.

2) Mutual self interest. He will give you what you want, and you will thank him for it, because doing it all yourself is bound to be a huge pain in the ass or even impossible.

The kinds of people who just let Viserys does what he wants are those who favor more immediate gratification and just in general don't think that far forward in the first place, or they fail to find a single flaw in his reasoning despite how inherently unreasonable sounding it is. Viserys claims in this vote that what everyone else has tried to do before was doomed to failure and impossible to accomplish, all while planning to do exactly that, and he says it with a straight face because he thinks he's just plain better than those people.

That's megalomania. You don't have to be unbalanced to be a megalomaniac. You could even be perfectly sane. When you have reality warping powers and the scale of your ambition is merely limited by the number of people willing and able to get in your way, the end result can end up varying greatly.
 
[X] Azel

The best way for different people to come together is to find a common cause to work towards, or a common enemy.

An eternal enemy like the devils and such might sound bad for Viserys( and it is bad don't get me wrong), but they do have the benefit of being a scapegoat for literally forever.
 
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meg·a·lo·ma·ni·a
(mĕg′ə-lō-mā′nē-ə, -mān′yə)
n.
1. A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence.
2. An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions.

Let's see here. Does Viserys have delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence? I'd have to say not really, because for all that he has/wants those things, he's actually very grounded in what his capabilites are. I think it's because when you're playing 6 second magical rocket-tag as often as he is, delusions aren't very helpful in winning.

Does he have an obsession with the grandiose or extravagant? Yeah, this one checks the boxes. You just need to look at his city, his speeches, his goals. Viserys dreams bigger than devils who've lived for millennia. Viserys has ideas that gods respect. Viserys sees the 'inevitable' encroachment of the void/winter and sees it as a workable problem.

Viserys pretty much lives grandiose and extravagant.
 
Mimas said:
Let's see here. Does Viserys have delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence? I'd have to say not really, because for all that he has/wants those things, he's actually very grounded in what his capabilites are. I think it's because when you're playing 6 second magical rocket-tag as often as he is, delusions aren't very helpful in winning.
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In a sense, Viserys has grown into his own hype. I still remember turning into a Red Wyrmling to try and intimidate an adult fey dragon into submission. Or talking mad shit to the gods faces and mostly not getting smote due to coming off as entertaining.
 
Azel said:
In a sense, Viserys has grown into his own hype. I still remember turning into a Red Wyrmling to try and intimidate an adult fey dragon into submission. Or talking mad shit to the gods faces and mostly not getting smote due to coming off as entertaining.
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You know that phrase, "fake it until you make it"?

Except Viserys was never faking it. :V
 
Crake said:
I think it comes off as megalomania because of scale, rather than means of expression. Anyone who has the kind of ambition Viserys does, and then has the sheer balls to tell someone with a straight face this is a reasonable goal or philosophy to have, is probably off their rocker in some respect.

Viserys gets away with it, and only gets away with it because of a combination of two factors:

1) Hypnotic personal magnetism and charisma.

2) Mutual self interest. He will give you what you want, and you will thank him for it, because doing it all yourself is bound to be a huge pain in the ass or even impossible.

The kinds of people who just let Viserys does what he wants are those who favor more immediate gratification and just in general don't think that far forward in the first place, or they fail to find a single flaw in his reasoning despite how inherently unreasonable sounding it is. Viserys claims in this vote that what everyone else has tried to do before was doomed to failure and impossible to accomplish, all while planning to do exactly that, and he says it with a straight face because he thinks he's just plain better than those people.

That's megalomania. You don't have to be unbalanced to be a megalomaniac. You could even be perfectly sane. When you have reality warping powers and the scale of your ambition is merely limited by the number of people willing and able to get in your way, the end result can end up varying greatly.
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That's a matter of opinion. I'm not making a value judgement here to be clear, just a qualitative one. A megalomaniac is a person obsessed with their own own ego, and while Viserys has a huge one he isn't fixated on it.

The difference comes into play in how his thought process plays out. When Viserys walks into a negotiation with a god he just sees a really powerful person, not an object of reverence that he can only treat with by being at least as holy as they are. When he's facing political opposition he doesn't get upset because X person dares oppose his magnificence, he gets irritated by them being in the way of what he wants to do at the time.

Viserys is arrogant because he doesn't really consider himself inherently locked out of doing something if he has the means to accomplish it; not having the right (in an immediate or abstract sense) doesn't often factor into his thought process. He doesn't set himself on the top of the cosmic ladder and derive his right to do things from that claim.

Equating that with megalomania is liking treating all forms of anger as the same, or all sorts of affection.


Mimas said:
meg·a·lo·ma·ni·a
(mĕg′ə-lō-mā′nē-ə, -mān′yə)
n.
1. A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence.
2. An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions.

Let's see here. Does Viserys have delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence? I'd have to say not really, because for all that he has/wants those things, he's actually very grounded in what his capabilites are. I think it's because when you're playing 6 second magical rocket-tag as often as he is, delusions aren't very helpful in winning.

Does he have an obsession with the grandiose or extravagant? Yeah, this one checks the boxes. You just need to look at his city, his speeches, his goals. Viserys dreams bigger than devils who've lived for millennia. Viserys has ideas that gods respect. Viserys sees the 'inevitable' encroachment of the void/winter and sees it as a workable problem.

Viserys pretty much lives grandiose and extravagant.
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I won't dispute that he loves grandiose nonsense, but obsession is one of those "I'll know it when I see it" terms. I'd define it as something reaching the point of unhealthy fixation, and Viserys is too much of a pragmatist to allow his desire to give speeches and have a fancy palace impede his ability interact usefully with other people.

More to the point, that definition isn't the one most people think of when using the term. The fundamental narcissism implicit in the popular image doesn't really apply to him.
 
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