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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
They have had centuries worth of troubles with slavers and proselytizing Red Priests both. Devils are a more abstract problem.
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They are about to convert a nation state built off of slavery into a military industrial complex.

They are the furthest thing from abstract. I know they don't realize that, I'm just saying, their priorities need to be delicately realigned.
 
Crake said:
They are about to convert a nation state built off of slavery into a military industrial complex.

They are the furthest thing from abstract. I know they don't realize that, I'm just saying, their priorities need to be delicately realigned.
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then we should tell them that. couse you know it might be important information to them
 
Rovos said:
then we should tell them that. couse you know it might be important information to them
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If they have Mindblank, then it might be a good rhetorical tool, but ehhh. I don't know if they have the agency or ability to hold onto that information when we're not even really prepared to do anything about Slaver's Bay at this point.
 
I think one of the default responses should work well here. Whatever we're doing in SD and the Imperium, it basically boils down to insuring the long-term survival and prosperity of life on Planetos and beyond. In the short-term, people are happy, well fed, and as safe as we can manage on a magical Death World. That's no small accomplishment.

How we arrive at this point should be largely irrelevant to the Summer Islanders.

[X] I have found that people of all sorts are more alike than they are different in what they expect of their rulers, security, prosperity and keeping out of those parts of their lives they deem private
 
Been a while since we needed to delicately explain how we manage to control a nation state of millions without sounding like a tyrant.
 
Honestly, I can't think of an ethical way to suppress the Red Faith if we tried. We can limit its direct, official legal power, but the problem with such a widespread religion backed by its own God is that:
  • trying to outlaw it risks rebellion
  • trying to limit it too much (no public signs of religion, no religious talk in public life at all, etc) would piss off a majority of the population, including many who are part of our institutions. This is worsened by the complete lack of a good reason we could sell through our nascent propaganda network. To most people, this is normal.
  • trying to completely rewrite its doctrine or splinter it risks divine wrath
  • trying to give another religion privileges and official powers (ex: only X religion can proselytize or collect official tithes or hold certain administrative or judiciary powers) might succeed in leeching worshipers from R'hllor but would be a step sideways and not forwards.
All that we can really do is hope that our current compromise (all religions theoretically equal, laws and legitimacy are based on our theoretically* non-religious principles, some limits on how openly they can get involved in governing the Realm) works. If it doesn't, we can push and make it work. If that still doesn't work for some reason, we're sort of fucked.

*This is an increasingly weird fig leaf to have, considering the nascent production of Viserys-Clerics + the Imperial God we intend to develop.
 
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Goldfish said:
[X] I have found that people of all sorts are more alike than they are different in what they expect of their rulers, security, prosperity and keeping out of those parts of their lives they deem private
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That's fine and all, but it reeks of Viserys saying "you shouldn't concern yourselves with this because A) You've got smooth brains and can't understand my inscrutable designs, and it is doubtless that they like 'immortal dragon emperor who cannot be predicted' any better than religious zealots.

Or B) I'd love to tell you, but I don't trust you.

Again, she is getting as straight to the brass tacks as you can while still trying to be somewhat subtle about her interests. She is worried the Red Faith is going to sink its claws into the Summer Isles, when she really should be thinking about how our claws would be wrapping around it instead, and why that is acceptable in comparison.
 
So, @DragonParadox, to clarify, which of these questions is it?

1. How do we intent to wrangle the different people in the Imperium?
2. How do we wrangle the gods of the Imperium?
3. How do we keep a lid on the various powerful creatures in the Imperium?
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Honestly, I can't think of an ethical way to suppress the Red Faith if we tried. We can limit its direct, official legal power, but the problem with such a widespread religion backed by its own God is that:
  • trying to outlaw it risks rebellion
  • trying to limit it too much (no public signs of religion, no religious talk in public life at all, etc) would piss off a majority of the population, including many who are part of our institutions. This is worsened by the complete lack of a good reason we could sell through our nascent propaganda network. To most people, this is normal.
  • trying to completely rewrite its doctrine or splinter it risks divine wrath
  • trying to give another religion privileges and official powers (ex: only X religion can proselytize or collect official tithes or hold certain administrative or judiciary powers) might succeed in leeching worshipers from R'hllor but would be a step sideways and not forwards.
All that we can really do is hope that our current compromise (all religions theoretically equal, laws and legitimacy are based on our theoretically* non-religious principles, some limits on how openly they can get involved in governing the Realm) works. If it doesn't, we can push and make it work. If that still doesn't work for some reason, we're sort of fucked.

*This is an increasingly weird fig leaf to have, considering the nascent production of Viserys-Clerics + the Imperial God we intend to develop.
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It's honestly such a relief that the faithful of R'hllor love us so much to the point that most of them consider Viserys to be the best candidate for Azor Ahai (and that R'hllor himself has an understanding with Viserys). It would be so much worse than anything the Faith Militant of the Seven could manage if the Red Faith all of a sudden decided Viserys had to go.
 
Duesal said:
It's honestly such a relief that the faithful of R'hllor love us so much to the point that most of them consider Viserys to be the best candidate for Azor Ahai (and that R'hllor himself has an understanding with Viserys). It would be so much worse than anything the Faith Militant of the Seven could manage if the Red Faith all of a sudden decided Viserys had to go.
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Well if the Red Faith decided that, we'd just need to replace the priests. A sea change never hurt anyone.

Except the priests. :evil:
 
We can just tell her the truth.
We talked to the God and he knows not to get in our way, we have broken greater dieties before and we will surely do it again.
 
[X] Plan That Sounds Only Slightly Megalomanical
-[X] "I have found it to be the most important part in ruling over such diverse people to accept that they are thus and that deep in their hearts, they will always be different from each other. Too many rulers fancy themselves as the masters of their subjects and that they can shape their very souls with their acts, yet even as the centuries grind their palaces to dust and even extinguish that very culture that brought them forth, people have remained people."
-[X] "Take the former slavers living in my realm. I have no illusion that they suddenly found respect for their fellow mans life and freedoms. Some of them always had it and you can tell them apart by how they treated those their culture deemed property with kindness and dignity, while others will always lack it, even if they were not so callous and cruel that justice demanded dark fates for them. But as I know that they will always desire to dominate, to rule and to gain power with little regard for others, I can temper them. Divert their urges to where they have to do good to achieve their desires. Where the best way to gain the influence and prestige they crave is to better the lives of those around them."
-[X] "Likewise there will always be those who wish to be ruled in body, mind and soul, who want to give themselves fully to a cause beyond doubt and question. From those, the worst atrocities might stem, as they will zealously carry out their masters whims, but while I can not force such people to be different than they are, I can make sure their goals are just and beneficial to the realm. Were I to order my Legions to torch a city, I have no illusions that they would not do so for me and I would be a fool to deny that this is the case. But to know that such power exists makes one cautious to exercise it. To be aware of the cost of missteps makes you seek perfection in every deed. So I believe and I made sure that my generals and commanders know this truth too."
-[X] "Even the gods are people in their own sense. They too have their natures and desires, and they too can be bargained with. I have found that for most faiths, that the cruelest and most deplorable acts committed in their names spring not from doctrine and dogma, but from the desires of those seeking to gain dominance through the trapping of faiths. Rare is the faith where the rot comes from the gods themselves and they have no place in this realm. For all others though, common ground can be found and conflict mediated. Have you seen the Temple of Unity during the parade? It is a monument to that ideal. That even the gods of water and fire, death and life, nature and man can coexist. That the gods too can put their differences aside for a greater goal that they share."
-[X] "So, to answer you question, yes. I do find it difficult, but that does not mean impossible. And when I look around myself on days like these, seeing the fruits of these labors, I know that not a single drop of sweat was shed in vain. A symphony is greater than the sum of it's parts and to figure out how the wild and thundering drum can be woven in with the soft voice of a singer is a small price to pay for the wonders that doing so will bring."
 
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