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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I'll just quote myself from the last time this came up.

Mopman43 said:
"Feh! The Grey Seers continuously fight-squabble with the Toad-things to bring the Warpstone moon closer, but Clan Skryre is too smart-clever for that! Instead of bringing it closer, we shall go to it! A bounty of Warpstone to be mined as to be unthinkable to lesser rat-spawn!"

I've always been of the opinion that the only mod you'd really need to turn KSP into SSP is one that turns the Kerbals into Skaven.
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[x] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[x] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[x] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania

[x] Scouting near the convoy
 
me.me.here said:
My arguments to refute your actual position, that going to Uzkulak would be a sour note, remain unchanged
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Man taking into account everything that we have done for the dwarfs (and I am not counting saving their race by retaking K8P), that sour note would be, at worst, a minor breach of protocol on an otherwise impeccable hero, like a victorious general scratching his nose during a banquet...
 
Fanhunter696 said:
Man taking into account everything that we have done for the dwarfs (and I am not counting saving their race by retaking K8P), that sour note would be, at worst, a minor breach of protocol on an otherwise impeccable hero, like a victorious general scratching his nose during a banquet...
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He's arguing against Simon Jester, who is arguing it would be a sour note.

Just to clarify.
 
Egrimm has impressed so far, I'd like to get to know him a bit better still, just to set my mind at ease.
Getting to know his ducklings would also give us another in to get to know him, and we should do what we can to help the troubled one. I know some people feel like we may annoy him by stepping on his turf, but if he's reasonable I hope he'd see that checking in with a wizard we have doubts about chaos taint is just a responsible thing to do.
Sir Ruprecht is an ambitious fellow, and that could be trouble. We should get to know him, to get a better read on him, especially considering how the battle went.

Lets definitely go to Uzkulak, see what we can buy. We might be able to get something valuable out of the hands of the despicable Chaos Dwarves, even if we have to give them gold to do it.
I'm also keen to see the combes as well, I'm paranoid about what the Skaven are up to, all the time, always.

[x] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[x] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[x] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
 
Mopman43 said:
He's arguing against Simon Jester, who is arguing it would be a sour note.

Just to clarify.
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Yeah but I was also in that discussion a while ago, and I also argued that after everything that we have done for them we would not lose basically any reputation...

Fanhunter696 said:
Mathilde has personally lead the forces that have recovered the second-largest Dwarven city in history (with extremely low casualties if I may add), burnt a Waagh to crisp, saved 300 of the most experienced smelters on the Dwarf race (including the elder), and has single-handedly pulled a lost Karak from the Warp with survivors still alive and kicking...

You either underestimate the amount of reputation that we have among the Dwarfs or you seriously overestimate how much entering Uzkulak to buy stuff and get intel would cost us...
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Random thought, but I wonder what sort of songs or legends will be created about Mathilde recovering Vlag from the Warp. For Eight Peaks there were half a dozen battles, and several years of action to extend into a great saga, but here... well we showed up, poked around, got poked back, then went and did wizardly things to turn off they're power, then weathered a ten-minute fight. Not really epic, in the story sense.
 
Ericwinter said:
Random thought, but I wonder what sort of songs or legends will be created about Mathilde recovering Vlag from the Warp. For Eight Peaks there were half a dozen battles, and several years of action to extend into a great saga, but here... well we showed up, poked around, got poked back, then went and did wizardly things to turn off they're power, then weathered a ten-minute fight. Not really epic, in the story sense.
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The song will probably focus on the doomed defense of Karak Vlag, with Mathilde showing up to save the day as a deus ex machina at the end.
 
Ericwinter said:
Random thought, but I wonder what sort of songs or legends will be created about Mathilde recovering Vlag from the Warp. For Eight Peaks there were half a dozen battles, and several years of action to extend into a great saga, but here... well we showed up, poked around, got poked back, then went and did wizardly things to turn off they're power, then weathered a ten-minute fight. Not really epic, in the story sense.
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I'd think none. We did the- metaphysically- impressive stuff by standing around or meditating, often offscreen, and that's not the sort of traditional glory Dawi immortalise. Remember all the Bosses we offed in Karagril, only getting rep and Favour for the one bisected in front of Dwarven witnesses?
In the battle we played our part- the Dwarves wouldn't even have been aware it was us who dispelled the Slayer-to-daemonette illusion.
notanautomaton said:
The song will probably focus on the doomed defense of Karak Vlag, with Mathilde showing up to save the day as a deus ex machina at the end.
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Yeah, I think I agree. We'd be a coda to the story of Karak Vlag.
Heh. At what point does this all just become expected performance from a (Grandmaster!) Mathilde? "Adequate craftsmanship" deus ex machina?
 
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[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[x] Ranging far ahead of the convoy
[x] Scouting near the convoy
 
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
Koraan said:
Mootland doesn't match your idea, though, so as Marienburg. I mean, how could've Emperor gift/sell someone else's property in that case?
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Different Emperor under different Imperial laws?
BoneyM said:
"It will take more than one earthquake only the Rune-pokers can feel before I stick my neck out."
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So Karak Vlag's Runesmiths (or Rune-pokers, which I guess might be a different "tradition" after all actual Runesmiths died) could actually "feel" the mystical shockwave that Dwarves aren't supposed to be able to feel. And we know they can't from both WoG and our interactions with Kragg and Thorek. That's what the Seviriscope was supposed to be about after all. If their mage sense was just very dim, but enough that generic Runesmiths can at least feel a massive event like that, then Kragg should be able to at least feel something occasionally, and his viewpoint chapter section in the battle of Karag Lhune seems to clearly say that he doesn't.
So this might mean that something very unprecedented is going on with Vlag Rune-pokers. Definitely something to revisit in the future.
 
Alliterate said:
I'd think none. We did the- metaphysically- impressive stuff by standing around or meditating, often offscreen, and that's not the sort of traditional glory Dawi immortalise. Remember all the Bosses we offed in Karagril, only getting rep and Favour for the one bisected in front of Dwarven witnesses?
In the battle we played our part- the Dwarves wouldn't even have been aware it was us who dispelled the Slayer-to-daemonette illusion.

Yeah, I think I agree. We'd be a coda to the story of Karak Vlag.
Heh. At what point does this all just become expected performance from a (Grandmaster!) Mathilde? "Adequate craftsmanship" deus ex machina?
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We have the Protector equiped though, that would smooth things out a lot with being offscreen...
 
Rafin said:
Different Emperor under different Imperial laws?

So Karak Vlag's Runesmiths (or Rune-pokers, which I guess might be a different "tradition" after all actual Runesmiths died) could actually "feel" the mystical shockwave that Dwarves aren't supposed to be able to feel. And we know they can't from both WoG and our interactions with Kragg and Thorek. That's what the Seviriscope was supposed to be about after all. If their mage sense was just very dim, but enough that generic Runesmiths can at least feel a massive event like that, then Kragg should be able to at least feel something occasionally, and his viewpoint chapter section in the battle of Karag Lhune seems to clearly say that he doesn't.
So this might mean that something very unprecedented is going on with Vlag Rune-pokers. Definitely something to revisit in the future.
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We know Runesmiths can sense sufficiently intense magical events, Belegar reassembling his crown shocked Thorek enough to make him drop his hammer on his foot.
BoneyM said:
King Belegar frowns at the eighth and final sapphire, which throbs with sullen energy as it objects, but King Belegar simply pushes harder. With a reluctant pop it clicks into place, and glows a sickly green for half a second before bursting back into clear blue light once more, and the seven others follow suit, an inner glow growing inside each.
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BoneyM said:
In Karagril, for the first time since he was an apprentice, Thorek Ironbrow drops his hammer on his foot.
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Runesmith-sense doesn't seem to have range but in both cases they were standing at ground zero.
 
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Rafin said:
So Karak Vlag's Runesmiths (or Rune-pokers, which I guess might be a different "tradition" after all actual Runesmiths died) could actually "feel" the mystical shockwave that Dwarves aren't supposed to be able to feel. And we know they can't from both WoG and our interactions with Kragg and Thorek. That's what the Seviriscope was supposed to be about after all. If their mage sense was just very dim, but enough that generic Runesmiths can at least feel a massive event like that, then Kragg should be able to at least feel something occasionally, and his viewpoint chapter section in the battle of Karag Lhune seems to clearly say that he doesn't.
So this might mean that something very unprecedented is going on with Vlag Rune-pokers. Definitely something to revisit in the future.
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...Uh, wasn't Kragg able to differentiate different Winds from the unique way they were repelled from him? And Thorek noticed when Eight Peaks reconnected to the Waystone. There's also this:
BoneyM said:
"One of my cousins spent three days camping outside the gates because he forgot the pass-phrases and the Winds were blowing too hard for the Runemasters to confirm his identity,"
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From this update even which indicates that not only do Runesmiths have some sort of senses, but they're explicitly interfered with by large amounts of magic.
 
Ericwinter said:
...Uh, wasn't Kragg able to differentiate different Winds from the unique way they were repelled from him? And Thorek noticed when Eight Peaks reconnected to the Waystone. There's also this:
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Yeah, Runesmiths apparently take then standard dwarven magic resistance and refine it in order to use it to tell the difference between the winds from how they impact it. I think the metaphor used was something like learning to tell the difference between crossbow bolts and bullets hitting plate armor.

Edit: Here it is.

BoneyM said:
Kragg does seem to be eyeing you strangely, though. His glare at you has always been disapproving, but not more so than his background level of disapproval when staring at a world that contains a declining Karaz Ankor, so you've never taken it personally. This type of attention is new and concerning to you, and you wonder if he has an inkling of what happened. You know that Dwarves cannot feel the Winds of Magic (though from that glimpse snatched from the mind of Mork, you wonder if that's truly universal) but those skilled in Runecraft are known to be able to sense magic almost backwards. All Dwarves are naturally slightly repellent to magic, and Runepriests are able to tap into and consciously control that repellence, primarily for the purpose of combating enemy magics. But they are also to be able to sense magic as whatever it is in their nature that repels magic does so, in the same way a man in armour could tell when a projectile ricochets off their armour, and with practice might learn to tell between a stone and an arrow and a bullet. Exactly how much they can sense is beyond what even the Grey College has been able to determine, but from Kragg's looks you think you can add a data point to those ongoing investigations.
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NSMS said:
The problem with taking the Border Princes isn't actually taking it, as I understand it. It's holding onto it when the inevitable Waaaghs of orcs come to visit.
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That's what the line of superweapons I outlined in my plan is for.

You actually probably wouldn't need that many due to Greenskin psychology if Iron Rock is taken beforehand. One superweapon on Barak Varr and one on Iron Rock to make that both untakeable above ground, and then .... I think two huge bases in between them would be enough, each with a super weapon as well. Three if you want to be real certain that every prospective Waaagh would be close enough to a base that they'd be unable to resist attacking one.

Any Waaagh would have to travel from the BadLands between those two Dwarf Hold's to reach the Border Princes, and no self respecting Waaash, would sneak through the space between all of those targets without attacking attacking at least one of those four or five targets first and then, bam, superweapon.

Again, it's not the most practical of plans, and constructing those bases on the border between the Border Princes and the Badlands would be an actual nightmare, but once the bases and the superweapons are set up I think the line would hold against basically any Waaagh.

Though, no promises on the Skaven not getting upset about this shift in political power and digging to our base from below.

.....

Really, the biggest problem is that I don't think you could construct the bases before conquering most of the Border Princes, I don't think the political will to keep them staffed and funded long term would be there. So you'd need to conquer a big enough chunk of the Border Princes and build the bases and the superweapons without a Waaagh big enough to disrupt any of these bits long term coming through at any point in the process.

I think it might be possible, just not probable enough to be worth getting enough favors owed to us to gain the backing it would need and not probably enough to risk that many lives and that much money on a longshot this long that we are initiating.

We make plenty of big gambles, but we make them to reduce risks and dangers, this is a gamble that would introduce more risk and danger to more people than I feel comfortable with. It would be fun, but probably not a good idea.
 
Alliterate said:
I'd think none. We did the- metaphysically- impressive stuff by standing around or meditating, often offscreen, and that's not the sort of traditional glory Dawi immortalise. Remember all the Bosses we offed in Karagril, only getting rep and Favour for the one bisected in front of Dwarven witnesses?
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Difference here is, the Dawi can see the result of our actions undeniably and clearly.

Sure, we may be only getting the part of the cavalry in the songs, but that can be a really important part especially if the cavalry is sufficiently decicive.

We'll probably get to appear only once or twice on the wall carvings depicting the story from Karag Vlag's perspective... but those carvings will be near or at the conclusion, and in the few carvings we'll appear in we'll be the center of attention, in the place of glory and honour, equal to, or even above, Borek, as the heavenly (no, this is Dawi, Earthly?) saviour in that regard.

And sure, maybe a lot of Dawi will honour and admire the doomed heroes that died buying necessary time more than us, but so what? They deserve it, and glory is not a zero sum game. Better to be the recurring side character who appears in several stories in the mythos to offer grand resolution than the main hero of one or two, especially if said hero is doomed.
 
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Fanhunter696 said:
Man taking into account everything that we have done for the dwarfs (and I am not counting saving their race by retaking K8P), that sour note would be, at worst, a minor breach of protocol on an otherwise impeccable hero, like a victorious general scratching his nose during a banquet...
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Eh, this and that are separate matters. I don't disagree about how buying/trading with Enemies of the Dawi would be taken, but my argument is more about going to Uzkulak in and of itself not being an issue or even guaranteed to lead to the aforementioned trading/buying.

Sightseeing wouldn't make us shady regardless of how shady any back-room dealing would or wouldn't make us seem.
 
storryeater said:
We'll probably get to appear only once or twice on the wall carvings depicting the story from Karag Vlag's perspective... but those carvings will be near or at the conclusion, and in the few carvings we'll appear in we'll be the center of attention, in the place of glory and honour, equal to, or even above, Borek, as the heavenly (no, this is Dawi, Earthly?) saviour in that regard.
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Actually looking back at the chapter, I'm not sure Vlag even knows Mathilde was responsible. We introduced ourselves as a Wizard, so they might be able to guess, but nowhere did we explicitly say we were the one who got them out of hell. The Coin might help with that, but it will at least have to wait until they start believing they're really back, and talk to other people to get the full story.
 
Ericwinter said:
Actually looking back at the chapter, I'm not sure Vlag even knows Mathilde was responsible. We introduced ourselves as a Wizard, so they might be able to guess, but nowhere did we explicitly say we were the one who got them out of hell. The Coin might help with that, but it will at least have to wait until they start believing they're really back, and talk to other people to get the full story.
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Those are Dawi. They'll get the full story, or the next best thing, before the first chisel scratches the stoneplate. Its not like it is a secret, even if we die we have sent runners detailing everything and Belegar will nake sure we are heard.
 
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