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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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tarrangar said:
I didn't know we could dispel it, if we can do that, then there's no reason not to cast it on her, I don't object to killing her, or to making sure they can't resurrect her, I just want to keep the possibility of us resurrecting her open.

I thought rest eternal was irreversible short of doing something like getting a god involved, which was why I thought it would be easier just to make an undead out of her corpse, and bottle it until we wanted to resurrect her.
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What exactly do you think would change if we resurrected her? Except the added animosity of having kept her dead for a few months to only resurrect her later on when it was convenient?

I'm increasingly in favor of catapulting her into the rift in Heaven before this turns into a repeat of the Kongamoto nonsense.
 
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Goldfish said:
Effulgent Epuration is a great spell that I've been waiting for a good opportunity to use.
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BTW, it amazes me that Skynet the Kindle didn't have any trouble with Effulgent Epuration. Didn't try to correct the spelling or change either word to something else. Half the time, it will even change "on" to "in" or "if" to "it", but Effulgent Epuration skated right through.

I'm telling y'all, this thing is ducking with me.
 
Azel said:
What exactly do you think would change if we resurrected her? Except the added animosity of having kept her dead for a few months to only resurrect her later on when it was convenient?

I'm increasingly in favor of catapulting her into the rift in Heaven before this turns into a repeat of the Kongamoto nonsense.
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She would see that she has lost, while Tywin live and the Rock stands, she still believe there's a chance however small of winning, once we have taken Westeros, her side has already lost, which would mean for her to continue fighting us, wouldn't be trying to preserve her side, it would be trying to avenge it, and as long as we aren't too cruel to the Lannisters, I don't think Lanna is the type to go for vengeance.

This isn't anything special for the setting, except that instead of keeping her captured alive, we would be keeping her captured dead, it's the norm for captured warriors during a war, to be kept captured during the war, and then allowed to swear to the winner.

If you capture a knight in a normal war, you either ransom them or keep them captured, then once the war is over, they can swear to you without infringing on their honor, because their side has already surrendered.

This is how I see Lanna, she's loyal to the cause of the Lannisters, so as long as the Lannisters exist as our enemies she will be hard to recruit, once we have won the war, and the Lannisters have either been executed or stripped on their name, the way for her to be loyal to her family, will no longer be to oppose us, at that point the best thing she can do for them, is to either work for us, or work for someone we aren't at war against, and use the prestige from that to help her family make a new powerbase.

Of course we don't yet know that this is true, but we don't know whether she's opposing us out of hatred or duty either, if she hates us winning her over will be hard, if it's duty that binds her, once we have won her duty wont be to oppose us any longer, which make recruitment much more likely to work.
 
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Guys, it may be time to set aside the matter of Lanna until you know more and the decision is a hand. There isn't any way to make the call one way or another right now so this could turn circular.
 
tarrangar said:
She would see that she has lost, while Tywin live and the Rock stands, she still believe there's a chance however small of winning, once we have taken Westeros, her side has already lost, which would mean for her to continue fighting us, wouldn't be trying to preserve her side, it would be trying to avenge it, and as long as we aren't too cruel to the Lannisters, I don't think Lanna is the type to go for vengeance.

This isn't anything special for the setting, except that instead of keeping her captured alive, we would be keeping her captured dead, it's the norm for captured warriors during a war, to be kept captured during the war, and then allowed to swear to the winner.

If you capture a knight in a normal war, you either ransom them or keep them captured, then once the war is over, they can swear to you without infringing on their honor, because their side has already surrendered.

This is how I see Lanna, she's loyal to the cause of the Lannisters, so as long as the Lannisters exist as our enemies she will be hard to recruit, once we have won the war, and the Lannisters have either been executed or stripped on their name, the way for her to be loyal to her family, will no longer be to oppose us, at that point the best thing she can do for them, is to either work for us, or work for someone we aren't at war against, and use the prestige from that to help her family make a new powerbase.

Of course we don't yet know that this is true, but we don't know whether she's opposing us out of hatred or duty either, if she hates us winning her over will be hard, if it's duty that binds her, once we have won her duty wont be to oppose us any longer, which make recruitment much more likely to work.
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Or, you know, she secretly works with her relatives to overthrow us and install Joffrey on the Iron Throne. You have no evidence or reason to assume she won't keep fighting us when Tywin is dead. For all we know, she divined the future of her family and was so horrified at what she found that she abandoned all notions of defecting and doubled down on any chance to kill us.

You are just using heavily motivated reasoning and guesswork to force the conclusion you always wanted.

I was fine with trying to recruit her when it looked as if she was flipping. But after what Marwyn told us? Fuck no. I do not want this Pokemon so badly that I will twist myself into logical pretzels to make it happen.

She picked her side. Accept that.

DragonParadox said:
Guys, it may be time to set aside the matter of Lanna until you know more and the decision is a hand. There isn't any way to make the call one way or another right now so this could turn circular.
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I would appreciate to actually settle this instead of having this same argument repeat over and over and over as usual.
 
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Azel said:
I would appreciate to actually settle this instead of having this same argument repeat over and over and over as usual.
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Ok then, it was just a suggestion I'm not going to mandate an end to the discussion. I've learned my lesson about that kind of stuff. I would like everyone to keep in mind that you are working with incomplete information right now, just like the case was with Aegon whom you did end up killing and Zherys whom you did end up recruiting when the conversation on them started.
 
Azel said:
Or, you know, she secretly works with her relatives to overthrow us and install Joffrey on the Iron Throne. You have no evidence or reason to assume she won't keep fighting us when Tywin is dead. For all we know, she divined the future of her family and was so horrified at what she found that she abandoned all notions of defecting and doubled down on any chance to kill us.

You are just using heavily motivated reasoning and guesswork to force the conclusion you always wanted.

I was fine with trying to recruit her when it looked as if she was flipping. But after what Marwyn told us? Fuck no. I do not want this Pokemon so badly that I will twist myself into logical pretzels to make it happen.

She picked her side. Accept that.
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That's what we have divination for, the dead don't get mindblank, so there's nothing preventing us from divining, whether she can be convinced to be loyal, I'm not saying we have to recruit her at all costs, I'm saying that we shouldn't close the option off before we have all the facts, including a divination of whether she will betray us if we resurrect her.

All I'm advocating for, is to not make the decision before we know everything, because far too often I see people speaking, as if it's already decided, that she's an a mortal enemy we can never work with.
 
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tarrangar said:
That's what we have divination for, the dead don't get mindblank, so there's nothing preventing us from divining, whether she can be convinced to be loyal, I'm not saying we have to recruit her at all costs, I'm saying that we shouldn't close the option off before we have all the facts, including a divination of whether she will betray us if we resurrect her.
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A note, divination on that kind of thing is not perfect. People do have free will, you can get a decent sense of how someone will act though divination in the short term, but there is a reason you guys actually perform interrogations instead of just inquiring about the future
 
DragonParadox said:
A note, divination on that kind of thing is not perfect. People do have free will, you can get a decent sense of how someone will act though divination in the short term, but there is a reason you guys actually perform interrogations instead of just inquiring about the future
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Yeah they're not perfect, but they can determine that she's not currently planning to betray us, sure she can change her mind in the future, but all of our vassals could theoretically do that.
 
DragonParadox said:
so this could turn circular.
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It's been circular for years.

Forgive some of us for wanting to close the discussion instead of chancing meandering around the problem once we get to dealing with it.

Salt aside, g'night all.
Vote more, maybe on stuff aside from summoning/alchemy if you all aren't interested?
 
DragonParadox said:
Sure, just trying to get ahead of the notion of putting people on future-watch like it's Minority Report, that sounds tedious.
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Yeah that would be tedious, and probably lead to more than a few self-fulfilling prophecies, doing it as a one time thing, when we hire someone we suspect might be planning to betray us, to check if they're likely to have plans to do so however, is just another tool in vetting recruits.

There's no absolutes of course, but if divinations tell us someone will betray us, even if we are doing our best to make sure they have plenty of opportunities for happiness and advancement, then that probably mean, they never planned to keep the bargain in the first place.
 
As a note since there are portals to the Plane of Earth what are the chances of us hitting the Rock from both through the portals and through the top?
 
tarrangar said:
That's what we have divination for, the dead don't get mindblank, so there's nothing preventing us from divining, whether she can be convinced to be loyal, I'm not saying we have to recruit her at all costs, I'm saying that we shouldn't close the option off before we have all the facts, including a divination of whether she will betray us if we resurrect her.

All I'm advocating for, is to not make the decision before we know everything, because far too often I see people speaking, as if it's already decided, that she's an a mortal enemy we can never work with.
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Yes. You want to keep the option open. Like with the Kongamoto. And then you will keep pestering and annoying people with it for months, constantly shifting the goal posts of your arguments and trying to win by sheer exhaustion.

And I'm already exhausted from the Lana argument, since this is indeed a circular argument that has been going on for years.

I know this won't work since nobody wants to get involved in debates about your obsessions until they have to, but until further notice I will do this every time the topic comes up:

[X] Lana has clearly shown her loyalties and thus you will resolve to kill her and prevent all resurrection to ensure that she does not become a powerful rallying point for the surviving Lannisters in particular and hostile Westerosi nobles in general.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
As a note since there are portals to the Plane of Earth what are the chances of us hitting the Rock from both through the portals and through the top?
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I was considering that, too. Wouldn't it be amusing if we stationed forces on the other side of the portal, beat the he'll out of the Rock thoroughly enough to convince Tywin to flee through it, then have him walk right into our hands when he thinks he is fleeing to safety?
 
Azel said:
Yes. You want to keep the option open. Like with the Kongamoto. And then you will keep pestering and annoying people with it for months, constantly shifting the goal posts of your arguments and trying to win by sheer exhaustion.

And I'm already exhausted from the Lana argument, since this is indeed a circular argument that has been going on for years.

I know this won't work since nobody wants to get involved in debates about your obsessions until they have to, but until further notice I will do this every time the topic comes up:

[X] Lana has clearly shown her loyalties and thus you will resolve to kill her and prevent all resurrection to ensure that she does not become a powerful rallying point for the surviving Lannisters in particular and hostile Westerosi nobles in general.
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I don't bring it up, I didn't bring it up this time, and I wont be bringing it up until it's actually time to decide, someone else, was saying how we should kill and prevent her from being resurrected, and I began to argue against that, I'm not going to bring this up out of the blue, so as long as people aren't screaming for her final execution, before it's actually time to decide, I wont be arguing against her final execution either.

I probably shouldn't have let @Solar Saiyan's comment get me riled up, but I didn't just spontaneously start the debate, and I promise I wont start further rounds of circular Lanna discussion.
 
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...Sorry, not sorry.

This is my riot solidarity-vote, sorry to all namevoting me, @Goldfish, @Othan763, @silvanknight.

[X] Lana has clearly shown her loyalties and thus you will resolve to kill her and prevent all resurrection to ensure that she does not become a powerful rallying point for the surviving Lannisters in particular and hostile Westerosi nobles in general.

[X] Outsider-summoning report, 2nd Month
-[X] From living and dead Devils in Slavers' Bay (2nd month):
--[X] 5 Erinyes (1 Servant of Mammon); 1 Ashmede; 6 Gaavs (2 unaffiliated); 2 Imps
---[X] The Erynies allegedly serving Mammon is to be put through extra-thorough check on the account of her name being available through suspect sources. Given she's even willing to turn to our service, of course.
-[X] 4-steps removed from Devils captured in Slavers' Bay initially, names from Devils summoned in 1st month
--[X] 5 Salikotals, 2 Ink Devils, 3 Gaavs (Servants of Asmodeus)
-[X] Mammon's Devils summoned 1st month
--[X] 2 Erinyes (Servants of Mammon)

[X] 2nd Month Industrial Alchemy Expansion
-[X] New Facilities:
--[X] Wildfire (Cost: 30,000 IM)
--[X] Antitoxin (Cost: 30,000 IM)
--[X] Heatstone (Cost: 30,000 IM)
--[X] Incendiary Catalyst (Cost: 30,000 IM)
-[X] TOTAL: 120,000 IM

yeah, yeah, I'm caustic, I know.
 
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Sigh... sorry for letting Westeros hang for so long guys, it's clear that a lot of the Lanna issues are from the fact that they have been going on for so long.

Hopefully we will clear it up soon.
 
tarrangar said:
I don't bring it up, I didn't bring it up this time, and I wont be bringing it up until it's actually time to decide, someone else, was saying how we should kill and prevent her from being resurrected, and I began to argue against that, I'm not going to bring this up out of the blue, so as long as people aren't screaming for her final execution, before it's actually time to decide, I wont be arguing against her final execution either.
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And when exactly is the time to decide? Because you are doing already a lot of work to muddy the waters on when exactly any decision can and should be reached. You are already gearing up to drag this out for months by keeping her body iced, so that you can, at any point, declare that you want to resurrect her. We've already played this game. And just like with the Kongamoto, every time you loose the argument or even a full vote, you will just declare "we didn't have all the information" or "that didn't count". You've done exactly this toxic shite before and I'm sick of it. You kept claiming that you don't notice when you are seriously aggravating people with your behavior, so let me spell it out: Your behavior right now is seriously aggravating.

I have all the information I need to decide this. She is actively working against us, is loyal to House Lannister, is a potentially grave political danger in the post-conquest landscape and the only thing she could bring to the table is herself being a mid-level caster. This doesn't add up. Those are tremendous risks for little potential gain. I am uninterested. Kill her, cast the anti-resurrection spell on her, disintegrate the body, throw the ashes into the sea. Done.

I mean, what is this argument even? She was seeing what we had to offer and walked away from it. Now she works firmly for our enemies. And you think she will reconsider after literally dying for that cause?
 
Azel said:
And when exactly is the time to decide? Because you are doing already a lot of work to muddy the waters on when exactly any decision can and should be reached. You are already gearing up to drag this out for months by keeping her body iced, so that you can, at any point, declare that you want to resurrect her. We've already played this game. And just like with the Kongamoto, every time you loose the argument or even a full vote, you will just declare "we didn't have all the information" or "that didn't count". You've done exactly this toxic shite before and I'm sick of it. You kept claiming that you don't notice when you are seriously aggravating people with your behavior, so let me spell it out: Your behavior right now is seriously aggravating.
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With the Kongamato I never got anywhere, we didn't do any divinations or anything, I was just rebuffed forever.

As for when the time is to decide, that would be either when the war is over, when Lanna is dead, or when we have Lanna captured.

Either way there should be one clear decision, we use divination and interrogation magic, to determine how trustworthy she would be if recruited, and then decide whether we want to recruit her, if after we have used magic to get all the facts, we decide we don't want to recruit her, then that's that, I accept that she wont be recruited, and don't mention her going forward.

All I really want, is that we actually do that fact finding, before deciding if she should be kept dead.
 
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Azel said:
I was fine with trying to recruit her when it looked as if she was flipping. But after what Marwyn told us? Fuck no. I do not want this Pokemon so badly that I will twist myself into logical pretzels to make it happen.

She picked her side. Accept that.
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Gotta admit I agree with that.

I mean, I've been arguing to try and recruit her a few times over the years, but the last few updates make it pretty clear that she's not going to overthrow her uncle anytime soon, or even stay relativly neutral in the upcoming war.

She is going to be a hostile combatant and I've always thought that there is no better way to gain someone's lasting enemity than killing and later Rezzing them in the hope of recruitment, so I've given up on her.
In the unlikely event that she pulls of something surprising during our attack I might reconsider, but until then she can go the way of the Lannister-name, to extinction.

So for now, goodbye Lanna, I hope we can spare a kill-team within the next three months to end you and your project before you can do something dangerous against out invasion.
 
tarrangar said:
With the Kongamato I never got anywhere, we didn't do any divinations or anything, I was just rebuffed forever.

As for when the time is to decide, that would be either when the war is over, when Lanna is dead, or when we have Lanna captured.

Either way there should be one clear decision, we use divination and interrogation magic, to determine how trustworthy she would be if recruited, and then decide whether we want to recruit her, if after we have used magic to get all the facts, we decide we don't want to recruit her, then that's that, I accept that she wont be recruited, and don't mention her going forward.

All I really want, is that we actually do that fact finding, before deciding if she should be kept dead.
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Interrogation magic? You want to resurrect her first and then decide on recruitment?

Also, you never considered the fact that people didn't want to indulge your demands as a sign that they, you know, did not want to do what you tried to force them to do?
 
Azel said:
Interrogation magic? You want to resurrect her first and then decide on recruitment?

Also, you never considered the fact that people didn't want to indulge your demands as a sign that they, you know, did not want to do what you tried to force them to do?
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I admit I got way too obsessed with the Kongamato.

And interrogation magic, would be either if we take her alive, or if the divinations came back positive on the idea of recruitment, if we capture her alive, interrogating her should be easy, if we kill her, we can first use divination to get an idea of if recruiting her is possible, and if the divinations look positive enough that we deem it worth resurrecting her, we can also interrogate her to be sure.

Either that or we use interrogation magic on her soul, Speak with Soul is a thing, we haven't used it yet, but as long as we know where she died, we can use Speak with soul, to interrogate her without resurrecting her.
 
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