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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

From the empire perspective they need to conserve strength until they can build back up, from the dwarf perspective lives are much more valuable than cash. This seems to be the best bad solution.
 
CtrlAltSuppr said:
True.
On the other hand, if the elves start backing Marianburg, helping break the blockade could very well become the start of a new war of the beard, which will be the last war, an end of time before its time.

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade.
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And all of that over imperial trade and Mathilde's advice. Are we really the fulcrum upon which everything turns? Are the elves and dwarfs idiots just itching to commit suicide?
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Guys, let us not underestimate that the They Can Make Up For It option significantly weakens the Empire and the Karaz Ankor for at least five years.

An Empire whose muster currently consists of two provinces and Hochland, and a KA that's currently shoring up K8P and actively fighting for Karak Dum.

If anything at all goes wrong in that time, and that's a lot of time for things to go wrong in, especially outside the provinces who are free, then things become seriously dicey.

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
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You say as if a full scale naval war wouldn't be at least as damaging.
 
BoneyM said:
Part of Marienburg is 'the Continental Exarchate of the High Kingdom of Ulthuan', which is legally owned by Ulthuan. It's a source of a lot of wealth and prestige, and gives warm fuzzies to the sort of Elf that yearns for the days when Ulthuan had an Empire.
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Ah I always wondered why Ulthuan gave a fuck about Marienburg at all, even sometimes putting it ahead of their actual interests and goals. People being total idiots explains it.

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

I don't really see any other serious option here. If you give into blackmail and extortion it just encourages more, if Marienburg is willing to go to all the way over this then they won't give up just because the Empire and the Karaz Ankor intend to wait them out.

Best make things clear from the start so that hopefully they will settle for only being absurdly rich and powerful, but with the Empire no longer being at their beck and call if there is a real risk of a conflict with the Karaz Ankor. Well I doubt we are that lucky, or them that little greedy, but maybe after fucking up the Empire as much they can -and probably getting some dwarf Grudges too- there a few people there who will consider the notion that they have fortunes, and will continue to have fortunes, so why take the risk?
 
DragonParadox said:
There is support for group identity, but the question is how deep does it go? Sure the people of Marienburg will throw the odd rotten cabbage at the soldiers but is their love for the still very recent idea of and independent Marienburg so great that it could not be counteracted by say lowering their taxes and talking about the corrupt elites? That I doubt.

Empress Heidi would be uniquely suited to the strategy.
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They have been independent for about three generations now and most of the loyalists where exiled. Also the empire is not going to lower any taxes when Marienburg is reconquered. Between revanchism and the whole point of owning marienburg bying t tax trade taxes will go up.
 
Andres110 said:
Mathilde is a worshipper of the god of lies. She's willing and able to say things that aren't true. See the "Marienburg's opposition is an elf ploy" option.
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Yeah, but, uh... why would she lie to him?

Like, the "spin Marienburg's opposition as an elf ploy" option is, explicitly, Mathilde deceiving the dwarves in order to get them to fight by the Empire's side against Marienburg. I acknowledge that this is a lie. But why on Earth would Mathilde tell the Chamberlain an option she doesn't think would work?
 
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

No matter how much is hurt with this option (which is probably very little), it's much better than even a 1/100 chance of rolling poorly leading to "Ulthuan decides it's time to forcefully remind everyone who rules the waves" or w/e the critfail for the "break blockade" option would be.

All of the good we've done so far would be outweighed by the bad if we accidentally gave advice that lead into War of the Beard Mk2.

Edit: And for the people going all "and also once we break the blockade, we should make sure to bombard/torch the place to stop them trying again" better have an answer for what happens if/when the elf district gets hit/goes up as collateral.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
...Okay, so you're suggesting that in the future Marienburg continues to embargo the Empire even after its entire source of leverage has been removed? And you think that Barak Varr will somehow be able to provoke this despite having a low intrigue score and an incredibly obvious motive for doing so, in the event they were willing to do such a thing, which I do not believe they would?

Politely, I think you are too invested in the argument and are now suggesting genuine nonsense.
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  1. Marienburg will rebuild its navy quickly once Barak Varr's navy leaves.
  2. Future blockades by Marienburg force trade to go through Barak Varr's canal, which makes Barak Varr money.
  3. Barak Varr will pull its dreadnoughts out of Marienburg the instant the canal is complete specifically to allow them to rebuild their navy and set another blockade.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Yes, the two empires will be economically weakened, but if the blockade turns into a war (which it easily could) how badly would they be weakened militarily and economically?

We're essentially accepting a certain small hit to prevent the chance of a much larger hit.

Also, preventing a direct conflict leaves open the possibility if further diplomacy to resolve the situation, and also improves the chances of working with Ulthuan on problems in the future. I want to keep those doors open.
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No one wants War of Vengeance 2. Marienburg is trying to strongarm the empire, I doubt the elves would get involved in the Empire merely breaking a blockade that was unilaterally imposed on them.

Making the dwarves pay for part of the blockade's costs and provide overland routes (so spending precious dwarf power) leaves both Empire and KA terribly overextended for a minimum of five years, possibly and easily more than that.
 
Lupercal said:
They have been independent for about three generations now and most of the loyalists where exiled. Also the empire is not going to lower any taxes when Marienburg is reconquered. Between revanchism and the whole point of owning marienburg bying t tax trade taxes will go up.
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You make a fair point. There is probably some kind of proton-nationalist sentiment we will have to deal with.

Vebyast said:
  1. Marienburg will rebuild its navy quickly once Barak Varr's navy leaves.
  2. Future blockades by Marienburg force trade to go through Barak Varr's canal, which makes Barak Varr money.
  3. Barak Varr will pull its dreadnoughts out of Marienburg the instant the canal is complete specifically to allow them to rebuild their navy and set another blockade.
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There is no such thing as instantly rebuilding navies much less naval docking infrastructure. That will take years. Also you are positing very treacherous dwarfs. they just don't work that way.
 
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picklepikkl said:
Yeah, but, uh... why would she lie to him?

Like, the "spin Marienburg's opposition as an elf ploy" option is, explicitly, Mathilde deceiving the dwarves in order to get them to fight by the Empire's side against Marienburg. I acknowledge that this is a lie. But why on Earth would Mathilde tell the Chamberlain an option she doesn't think would work?
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Boney was intentionally vague when pressed - these are all of the options that Mathilde can think of, but they might not all necessarily work. We have to make a judgement call here.
 
Vebyast said:
  1. Marienburg will rebuild its navy quickly once Barak Varr's navy leaves.
  2. Future blockades by Marienburg force trade to go through Barak Varr's canal, which makes Barak Varr money.
  3. Barak Varr will pull its dreadnoughts out of Marienburg the instant the canal is complete specifically to allow them to rebuild their navy and set another blockade.
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I'm not exactly a huge proponent of the amazing power of free markets and the invisible hand, but I do feel like I should point out that once the Empire has an alternative to Marienburg, Marienburg trying to blockade the river will suddenly hurt them far more than it does the Empire, and so the economic incentives on their part to do these sorts of hi-jinks will no longer exist.
 
Actually, I wonder. The construction schedule of the canal.

How much would it be affected by Barak Varr's dreadnoughts and navy being shifted around from patrolling the southern coasts and the rivers of the Border Princes to instead saber-rattle-or-actually-blockade-break at Marienburg, or from the Karaz Ankor chipping in to help support the Empire and re-arranging the alternate routes for crucial supplies?

That is, is the canal going to be slowed down or affected, by what we pick here? And if so, by how much/how long? Do we have any ideas or estimates?
 
Redshirt Army said:
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

Yes, this is a gamble. But are we, or are we not, the follower of the God of Gambling?
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If we're willing to gamble with people's lives, why aren't we willing to do something much less morally ambiguous like pick up immortality? Finding one immoral person to turn into a dragon and suck dry is far less bothersome than provoking a war with a city state that can call on elven military forces.
Guisarme said:
I just can't understand how the Empire to Karaz Ankor conversation would go well if we choose the non blockade option.

Emperor: Hey Marienburg is threatening to block literally all of our riverine trade which will really hit us in the purse strings, could you, our ally compensate us for this grievous loss?

Thorgrim: Ummm, how is that an us problem? Also how did Marienburg, a city so vitally important to you, get independent again?

Emperor: 'Sweats' Well you see, they bribed us to let them go, and we allowed it. Now about that money your going to compensate us with.

Thorgrim: NO
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Ah yes, because when the Karaz Ankor does something that causes repercussions to a close ally of theirs that they didn't ask for, Dwarves laugh and refuse to admit any sort of responsibility, even though everything else they might be responsible for keeps them awake at night until they swear suicide oaths.

I'm sorry if that might sound a little vitriolic, but that argument really doesn't sound like it's being made in good faith.
strauss said:
I don't really see any other serious option here. If you give into blackmail and extortion it just encourages more, if Marienburg is willing to go to all the way over this then they won't give up just because the Empire and the Karaz Ankor intend to wait them out.
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The Marienburgers are blackmailing the Empire, but giving them a fight is playing right into their hands. Asking the Dwarves to help the Empire move their trade away from Marienburg is avoiding them, not giving in to their demands, and when the Dwarves are done the Empire will never have to deal with Marienburg again.
EVA-Saiyajin said:
If the Marienburgers are stupid enough to not back off when the threat of Barak Varr comes, then they deserve what would happen next.
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Nobody else will, and there'll be an awful lot of everybody else involved.
 
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Erandil said:
It isn't as much a blockade as closing its city to certain travelers... And again I maintain that any attempt to use the waystones for political gain is just going to end with the High Elves demonstrating that this is something you really don't mess with. Mess with them andyou threaten Ulthuan itself.
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Considering there's a literal break the blockade option that's not strictly accurate? Empire ships don't need to disembark in Marienburg to continue trading with the elves for example, Marienburg can only stop that by blockading the river Reik.

For the High Elves having the Empire up and running to actually protect the Waystones is more valuable than having Marienburg dominate trade forever - an able diplomat should be able to raise the point that gravely weakening imperial authority by supporting Marienburg's blockade is exceedingly counterproductive to that goal.

For now:

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Boney was intentionally vague when pressed - these are all of the options that Mathilde can think of, but they might not all necessarily work. We have to make a judgement call here.
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I agree, but Andres was claiming that this was a lie.
Andres110 said:
Everything else but this and a straight "no" is a lie. There is no way the dwarves are going to take Marienburg's insolence lying down, much less pay the Empire that they may both supplicate themselves to the city for a half a decade. They will not pay for the Empire, so it is telling an untruth to say they would.
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And I was saying that, no, this is not a lie. Mathilde does not think that this won't work. She does, honestly, believe it might work or it wouldn't be an option.
 
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