Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Frankly, @AbeoLogos we picked up wood arts ages ago because of this argument. Didn't really help at all. Just having similar elements doesn't make them compatible, and overlapping would really mess with our build to try.
I think a shared hobby might actually be better tbh. LQ actually has things she does with her other spirits that don't directly involve cultivating. (Just indirectly)

And I kind of suspect Zhengui was thinking something similar, before his dream was eaten.
 
What about PLR? We are going to master it pretty soon and we could hopefully change Motion for Growth, especially now that we have Dream Step.
We don't get to know what keywords we can substitute in before we commit to doing it. That particular substitution seems unlikely to me, especially since PLR's Motion keyword contributes to something that's really useful to us (being able to move Zhengui along with us).
Frankly, @AbeoLogos we picked up wood arts ages ago because of this argument. Didn't really help at all. Just having similar elements doesn't make them compatible, and overlapping would really mess with our build to try.
I think a shared hobby might actually be better tbh. LQ actually has things she does with her other spirits that don't directly involve cultivating. (Just indirectly)
I mean, Abeo did mention all that stuff. Having elemental overlap doesn't mean it's thematically something Zhengui can contribute to. BKSD is a Wood art and WHR is Fire, but neither has any relevance to who Zhengui is and what he's about, so they don't help matters. But we do have arts that tie into what our other spirits are about, and that really helps our relationships with them progress naturally. A hobby would be nice, yeah. Something to do together. Problem is, LQ is a cultivation gremlin who's really into music, and that's basically it.

(All I'm saying is, if we're really concerned with "finding something to do with our spirit beast to let us bond," there's an option in the vote that's open right now that may help accomplish that exact thing, depending on how you parse "Advice on the vagaries of raising spirit beasts"...)
 
What about PLR? We are going to master it pretty soon and we could hopefully change Motion for Growth, especially now that we have Dream Step.
Dropping Motion from what is chiefly a movement art would be kinda weird. It's just not a situation where we have very many options.

Frankly, @AbeoLogos we picked up wood arts ages ago because of this argument. Didn't really help at all. Just having similar elements doesn't make them compatible, and overlapping would really mess with our build to try.
I think a shared hobby might actually be better tbh. LQ actually has things she does with her other spirits that don't directly involve cultivating. (Just indirectly)

And I kind of suspect Zhengui was thinking something similar, before his dream was eaten.
That's not really accurate. The only Wood art we picked up was SES. And from the outset, it didn't have anything obvious in common with Zhengui. Or Ling Qi, for that matter. SES's story and themes are fundamentally dissimilar from Zhengui's themes.

I completely agree that just having elements in common doesn't mean thematic or methodological compatibility. That's what made last turn's effort a bust; the arts that did what we wanted didn't fit Zhengui that well. The art that we ultimately chose, Winter Hearth's Resounding, has Fire, but that's the only thing it has in common with Zhengui, and the Fire that it has is not like Zhengui's Fire at all.

I'm not arguing for just elemental overlap. My lobbying is for two things, basically. First, an Art that actually allows the two characters to interact with each other on a philosophical level. This is currently basically impossible, certainly from a player-vote point of view. Second, is the narrative space to engage with Zhengui in a focused manner. This is also something the players can't decide on unilaterally, though we've certainly not done a good job of jumping on the few opportunities that have come up. I'm aware I'm advocating for things we can't do; that's what I'm advocating for to change.
 
TRF. And anyway, I don't think we've ever taught any of our spirits an art. Or even directly worked with one on an art LQ wasnt learning.

We compose with Hanyi. We dance and chat with six while dreaming. I suspect it's partially do to the partially conceptual nature of spirits and I doubt they are so malleable so as to accept foriegn concepts that aren't a perfect match for their wheelhouse.
 
All I'm saying is, if we're really concerned with "finding something to do with our spirit beast to let us bond," there's an option in the vote that's open right now that may help accomplish that exact thing
EXACTLY.
But are people taking this chance to do right by him, which is something that's been discussed very often?
No.
*Headdesk*
 
Half of the contention seems to be that people disagree on which vote is, in fact, doing right by him.
Yeah I noticed.
I've heard the different arguments. Frankly I think its crazy that after what he went through last turn, people think what he needs is time away from his mom. Which is what LQ is, even if she won't admit it.
More importantly Alingge could give some really good insight that would really help LQ out in trying to understand whats bothering ZG. But no, people want to prioritize the goal with Wang Chao even though we're going to be seeing him tomorrow anyway. :facepalm:
 
[X] Join Wang Chao in the pavilion. [Make yourself more approachable, influence Wang Chao Bond. Give Zhengui room to act on his own, for better or worse.]

The stupidest thing about Zhengui is how often people make up the stupidest reasons for how a vote will or will not ~*~solve the Zhengui problem~*~
 
TRF. And anyway, I don't think we've ever taught any of our spirits an art. Or even directly worked with one on an art LQ wasnt learning.

We compose with Hanyi. We dance and chat with six while dreaming. I suspect it's partially do to the partially conceptual nature of spirits and I doubt they are so malleable so as to accept foriegn concepts that aren't a perfect match for their wheelhouse.
We didn't "pick up" TRF. It was handed to us. It was not an example of us pursuing an art to connect with Zhengui.

I do think out of all the Wood, Fire, or other Arts we've had, it had the most in common with him with its themes of the defensive power of mighty growth. Our total lack of exploring its themes with Zhengui predates awareness of the structural issues in Ling Qi and Zhengui's relationship, so I don't include it.

Yeah I noticed.
I've heard the different arguments. Frankly I think its crazy that after what he went through last turn, people think what he needs is time away from his mom. Which is what LQ is, even if she won't admit it.
More importantly Alingge could give some really good insight that would really help LQ out in trying to understand whats bothering ZG. But no, people want to prioritize the goal with Wang Chao even though we're going to be seeing him tomorrow anyway. :facepalm:
In fairness, it would look really weird to not go with Wang at this juncture. His question to us is, uh, it's rhetorical. He's not actually requesting that we join him in the pavilion. It's a polite formality acknowledging that we'll be doing that. The social and political expectation is that we go chat to people. Supporters of the vote are in no way wrong about that. Going off to hang out with Alingge and the spirits is inherently socially invalid. Picking Zhengui here is wrong. We'd be in the wrong to do so.

But that's the whole problem.
 
[X] Join Alingge with the Beasts. [Actively help Zhengui be more social. Advice on the vagaries of raising spirit beasts, Influence Alingge bond.]
 
I've heard the different arguments. Frankly I think its crazy that after what he went through last turn, people think what he needs is time away from his mom. Which is what LQ is, even if she won't admit it.
Do people not remember during the mission where the thread voted to speak to Zhengui to check on him and he went "Uh i'm fine. You do this all the time" and became annoyed by Ling Qi enough he went "I'm going anyplace else that isn't near you."?

It's crazy we aren't signing up for more of those interactions!
 
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Arts are basically spiritual spiritual scaffolding meant to mimic a part of a spirits 'anatomy'. Yrs had even said that Zeqing adopting LQ would basically involve teaching her both of those arts,

Zeqing cracked because we had a different perspective on her art. She literally took damage from a different perspective involving part of her spiritual anatomy.

I am skeptical of teaching spirits art related things. LQ has never done it, nor have we ever seen anyone else do it.

Mostly, we work on "mundane" skills with our spirits. And I suspect it's not coincidence or because LQ is just dumb.
 
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Yeah I noticed.
I've heard the different arguments. Frankly I think its crazy that after what he went through last turn, people think what he needs is time away from his mom. Which is what LQ is, even if she won't admit it.
More importantly Alingge could give some really good insight that would really help LQ out in trying to understand whats bothering ZG. But no, people want to prioritize the goal with Wang Chao even though we're going to be seeing him tomorrow anyway. :facepalm:
The argument I have against this is time and place. There is time and place for everything. Is talking about personal problems while surrounded by people you don't know a good idea? Likely not, especially if your jumping into the conversation cold turkey.

If I was a preteen and my mom dragged me off to another mom after a sports event and started talking about the problems we were having while we were surrounded by my peers I would mortified and angry. I still would be today as an adult.

I do think Alligane can offer advice for the current troubles. I think she would be a great help. But there is a time and place. If I had to have such a conversation I would want to be forewarned that the conversation was going to happen and I would want the conversation to be in private. Since that is what I would want I am voting in a way to give that same respect to Zhengui.
 
I am skeptical of teaching spirits art related things. LQ has never done it, nor have we ever seen anyone else do it.

Mostly, we work on "mundane" skills with our spirits. And I suspect it's not coincidence or because LQ is just dumb.
We have cultivated our arts in company with our other spirits working on theirs: Sixiang's arc, for instance, involved a bunch, with specific reference to how we were learning from and connecting with their nature (for Playful Muse's Rapport) and more direct engagement with their themes (Phantasmagoria of Lunar Revelry's upgrade). We have music as a common ground and a lot of cold arts to work on with Hanyi. I would like one (1) thing we can do together with Zhengui that isn't "be a kill-blender on the battlefield." Ideally an art, but I'll accept a hobby.
 
[X] Join Alingge with the Beasts. [Actively help Zhengui be more social. Advice on the vagaries of raising spirit beasts, Influence Alingge bond.]

With currently three spirits we really should spend more effort in making sure we are up to the task on that front. And while not as good as a dedicated action like elder tutoring this should still be pretty useful in the short and long term.
Three spirits, but only one spirit beast.
 
We have cultivated our arts in company with our other spirits working on theirs: Sixiang's arc, for instance, involved a bunch, with specific reference to how we were learning from and connecting with their nature (for Playful Muse's Rapport) and more direct engagement with their themes (Phantasmagoria of Lunar Revelry's upgrade). We have music as a common ground and a lot of cold arts to work on with Hanyi. I would like one (1) thing we can do together with Zhengui that isn't "be a kill-blender on the battlefield." Ideally an art, but I'll accept a hobby.
I have to admit that I have come to loathe the idea of a "Zhengui art". A bit of it is that thinking just training an art would fix the problem sort of cheapens it. Part of it is that we already have an absolute tangle of themes and effects and adding more makes me uncomfortable. Part of it is that I don't fundamentally think that's actually the problem - there's other cultivators who have off-theme spirits they go fine with. (Who was the illusionist with the ogre thing again?) Part of it is also just irritation with people's obsession with it, but I try to suppress that.

I do think something to do with him might help. I'm not sure how necessary it is to pick up something new to do that, but I think it would help. One idea Abeo mentioned on discord that I really liked was the idea of doing formations with him, but I'm not sure how we'd actually vote that.
 
We have cultivated our arts in company with our other spirits working on theirs: Sixiang's arc, for instance, involved a bunch, with specific reference to how we were learning from and connecting with their nature (for Playful Muse's Rapport) and more direct engagement with their themes (Phantasmagoria of Lunar Revelry's upgrade). We have music as a common ground and a lot of cold arts to work on with Hanyi. I would like one (1) thing we can do together with Zhengui that isn't "be a kill-blender on the battlefield." Ideally an art, but I'll accept a hobby.

Teaching a spirit very different from using an art in the presence of them. Teaching is, after all, inherently about imparting concepts. More importantly, we were learning from six, not the other around.

I mean, we've never had the option to teach Hanyi FSS, despite the fact that I am sure she'd love it, and it would be useful for her.

I doubt it's because LQ just didn't think of it.
 
I've heard the different arguments. Frankly I think its crazy that after what he went through last turn, people think what he needs is time away from his mom. Which is what LQ is, even if she won't admit it.
If your argument is that we need to be spending more time with Zhengui this month though then, uh, that's more about what we do during the rest of the month. That's more of a "next arc vote" question.

Not "what we do for the next hour this afternoon", which is what this vote literally is.
 
I have to admit that I have come to loathe the idea of a "Zhengui art". A bit of it is that thinking just training an art would fix the problem sort of cheapens it. Part of it is that we already have an absolute tangle of themes and effects and adding *more* makes me uncomfortable. Part of it is that I don't fundamentally think that's actually the problem - there's other cultivators who have off-theme spirits they go fine with. (Who was the illusionist with the ogre thing again?) Part of it is also just irritation with people's obsession with it, but I try to suppress that.
The illusionist with the ogre was Wen Ai, I think?

I don't think we need to dilute our own themes to connect with Zhengui. Consider this insight of ours:
There are endings and Endings, only the very last one is final. Just as winter ends in spring, small endings are new beginnings.
This is a great jumping-off-point, given that he is Growth and Renewal. I know Abeo's Magical Christmas Land outcome from the archive dive was hoping we'd get a Cold/Wood Resist art that directly supported this insight. There's a lot of stuff LQ has to work with, but as we become more and more of a philosophy-monster through our advancing cultivation, I feel it becomes more and more important that we have something we can use to connect to Zhengui philosophically. Otherwise he'll be a beloved and dear family member, but not a partner. And I'd like him to be a partner the way Six and Hanyi are cut out to be.
Teaching a spirit very different from using an art in the presence of them. Teaching is, after all, inherently about imparting concepts. More importantly, we were learning from six, not the other around.

I mean, we've never had the option to teach Hanyi FSS, despite the fact that I am sure she'd love it, and it would be useful for her.

I doubt it's because LQ just didn't think of it.
OK, but... teaching our spirits our arts directly isn't really the thing under discussion? I am unsure why you are bringing it up. We do know that spirits are capable of developing their own techniques through being inspired by something external to them: Zhengui's Inferno Rebirth comes from training with Gu Tai's spirit companion, for instance.
If your argument is that we need to be spending more time with Zhengui this month though then, uh, that's more about what we do during the rest of the month. That's more of a "next arc vote" question.

Not "what we do for the next hour this afternoon", which is what this vote literally is.
Part of the issue is that we don't know what's coming up later and so we can't really judge how much more we have in the way of opportunity. My rationale for voting for Alingge this vote was "we know we have more Wang Chao later this arc, but we don't know whether this is the on-ramp for Zhengui's plot developments this month or not."
 
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Teaching a spirit very different from using an art in the presence of them. Teaching is, after all, inherently about imparting concepts. More importantly, we were learning from six, not the other around.

I mean, we've never had the option to teach Hanyi FSS, despite the fact that I am sure she'd love it, and it would be useful for her.

I doubt it's because LQ just didn't think of it.
She has Frozen Peak Serenade, which is roughly equivalent. It even shares some of the moveset.

In general, though... the reason that we share arts with Hanyi and Sixiang in a way that we don't with Zhengui is that we pretty much picked up Hanyi and Sixiang in ways that were strongly in our themes to begin with. Sixiang was a spirit that joined us because we were super-musical at a Moon party. We connected to Hanyi while learning arts from her mother. In both cases, they came to us very much inside our themes already. We picked up Zhengui because he was there, and he's awesome, but he doesn't naturally fit inside our themes. Seriously - Hany and Sixiang both give multipliers to Music arts.

Zhengui doesn't naturally fit with our cultivation like they do. That's just part of the nature of the relationship. It does make certain things harder, yes, but that doesn't mean that everything is broken, and we are working on fixing things with him, with some success. This party we're at? A big part of it was about learning to work with him on the battlefield, and we just got told about how yes, that's working. We're learning to layer Zhengui killzone and movement control on top of Ling Qi killzone and movement control and the combination is kind of brutal - brutal enough that the next time we get into a major fight, having the two stay in the same place and back each other up will be the clearly correct answer... just like it was in our most recent fight. Zhengui was having problems feeling useless, which was fair, because we weren't using him properly. Now we've got the thing going on with Bao Qian that's letting him make some money and feel like he's contributing, and the fact that it's so profitable is what smoothed the way to letting Hanyi get her little music thing started. He's literally providing the startup capital for his little sister's dreams. He stood up and took the sacrifice for the group when it came to the dream-eater. It sucked, and it'll take a while for that dream to grow back, but he's managed to claim a valuable role in the family now. That's a big deal as far as healthy small-group relationships.

Now, it's not all fixed. That's true. It would be good to improve further, but don't get confused about what this vote is. In general, votes don't get offered when one path is the obvious correct path. This whole meeting is already a great big chunk of "We get closer to Zhengui, and also he helps us complete the mission." We're learning to work with him, we're impressing the little nobles by being obviously badass while also having an obviously badass spirit, and we're working together to both provide a double threat and demonstrate what kind of synergies you can pull with your spirits if you work at it. This vote isn't "abandon mission or abandon Zhengui". It's "You've just finished a bunch of stuff which is both. Now, which one do you want to push further right now?"
 
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[X] Join Wang Chao in the pavilion and invite Zhengui with you. [Protest vote.]
[X] Join Alingge with the Beasts. [Actively help Zhengui be more social. Advice on the vagaries of raising spirit beasts, Influence Alingge bond.]


The illusionist with the ogre was Wen Ai, I think?

I don't think we need to dilute our own themes to connect with Zhengui. Consider this insight of ours:

This is a great jumping-off-point, given that he is Growth and Renewal. I know Abeo's Magical Christmas Land outcome from the archive dive was hoping we'd get a Cold/Wood Resist art that directly supported this insight. There's a lot of stuff LQ has to work with, but as we become more and more of a philosophy-monster through our advancing cultivation, I feel it becomes more and more important that we have something we can use to connect to Zhengui philosophically. Otherwise he'll be a beloved and dear family member, but not a partner. And I'd like him to be a partner the way Six and Hanyi are cut out to be.
It would be wonderful to see Ling Qi connect with Zhengui.

On the other hand, maybe the apparent preferential treatment Six and Hanyi get is a hint? Maybe we aren't strong enough to have our roots and our wings. If we have to pick something to leave behind on our way, maybe we're supposed to leave Zhengui behind.

I mean, he's only our first spirit. And also a spirit beast with the highest potential we've ever seen.
 
To clear the air, and this is a big whoopsie, uh. All my posting about Zhengui today and like half of yesterday? Yeah, I wasn't actually trying to argue for the vote. I was hashing out general Zhengui issues as a refresher given the focus of the arc. Honestly didn't occur to me that it looks like I'm arguing for voting Zhengui right now. Even though that's what I've personally done, I don't even feel confident about it.

With the setup for the vote, it'd look really weird to not go hang out with the nobles. Zhengui should be fine. Short of a fight, it's not like most nobles actually care about squabbles between spirits anyway(the racists). The only thing I feel like we're really giving up is an opportunity for Alingge to give Ling Qi some straight-talking advice and just the implication of Ling Qi seeking it out in the first place. But there's value in establishing a bit more context during the event before getting advice.

(Like dropping almost all of our Wood meridians and then asking for advice on working with Zhengui better ;) )

Teaching a spirit very different from using an art in the presence of them. Teaching is, after all, inherently about imparting concepts. More importantly, we were learning from six, not the other around.

I mean, we've never had the option to teach Hanyi FSS, despite the fact that I am sure she'd love it, and it would be useful for her.

I doubt it's because LQ just didn't think of it.
I'm pretty sure Ling Qi has tutored Hanyi in her version of FSS before? Also, Zhengui has been taught, like direct hands on "here are specific qi practices to try" taught, by Xuan Shi, Gu Tai, and Gu Tai's bird. Ling Qi also did teach him how to hide his qi while buried in the ground.

There's a difference between trying to install a whole art into a spirit or something, and providing direction on the expression of their natural abilities. The second one is something Ling Qi isn't really equipped to do with Zhengui, but that others demonstrably have been, and cultivators and their spirit partners are in general capable of, including Ling Qi and her other spirits.
 
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