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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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The way I see it, Danelle is in no way prepared to go after Viserys without backup, and more importantly none of her companions are eager to sell their lives for anything more than because she decided she had to.

So she's either trying to see beyond what she doesn't agree with, if it can even be reconciled, or she is going to carefully prepare to act.

Keep in mind, the same restrictions upon Viserys acting against Danelle and her friends that @DragonParadox pointed out are the same that she herself must contend with. By telling herself she has to kill Viserys first before he becomes an unstoppable threat, while he is offering protection to millions of people and striking down countless other threats and generally actually doing a good job at being a great leader for his people, she has to swallow a whole bottle of bitter pills as opposed to two or three pills that Viserys has to when contemplating murdering the Chosen and their friends.

Viserys has to sacrifice expediency for PR and the fact that it isn't okay to kill sympathetic figures because they're probably going to oppose you.

By the same token, it's very much not okay to contemplate regicide because Viserys isn't virtuous enough for your tastes, not when you are making that decision for millions of people and utterly flipping their lives end over end if you so happen to succeed, while also risking all of the people you care about own lives.
 
Azel said:
I just can't take Danelle seriously anymore after her entire reaction to the Molds was a complete 180° turn after some canned Viserys soundbite.

Let's just deal with the lord, put them aside and not involve them in this any further.
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Duesal said:
Not to mention there should have been some reaction to her seeing Rina wielding Baelor the Blessed's mace like the blood soaked trophy that it is.
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Most simple explanation is that she didn't see the point in arguing with us and that she saw more immediate issues that needed to be addressed without delay.
Azel said:
@Goldfish, your plan is a dud by the way. Danelle and Brandon know of Deep One activity and the Iron God matter. Letting them poke around further means they will attack the rebels.
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I'll edit my plan to take that into account.
 
@DragonParadox, I completely disagree with Azel's complaints. The mold thing made perfect sense : Danelle disapproved of undead, we revealed that this wasn't a desecrated corpse and that there was a Plant at the helm. She them seemed cautiously accepting, or at least sufficiently uncertain to avoid acting for now.
 
DragonParadox said:
The reaction went form 'concerned' to 'thoughtful'. I did not mean for it to be a 180 so it's on me that it came off like that. I'll try to show more nuance in the future, but she just does not get a lot of screen time.



That is utterly unrecognizable, it looks like a weirwood mace.
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Ok. Let me be honest. And blunt.

Danelle is one of your Good pet characters and you don't like the idea of her having conflict with Viserys, so you write her as a mix of doormat and a strawman.

She has objections, but they are automatically and easily resolved and she is readily willing to blindly ignore Viserys more callous habits and marching along with his "Hard Man Making Hard Decisions While Hard" nonsense instead of calling him out on it. She is even willing to betray her own faith and principles, if it just means pleasing Viserys.

And whenever people rebel against her, you pull the "the Companions will be sad" card to protect her, despite it being amply clear for everyone that the conflict is inevitable, unless she throws away her entire beliefs and faith in the name of pandering to Viserys.
 
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Plain and simple, let's deal with Chester and move on. There is no need to deal with the chosen right now, nor to try to make Chester suspicious or ill-inclined toward them.

[X] Seek Lord Chester's fealty, the better to be able to protect him and his fief
-[X] If we are successful, contact Thorfin via Sending and make him aware of the new political reality, and ask the Convergence to take care not to provoke Chester such that he might ask for our assistance in dealing with a "Deep One" incursion.
 
I think the Chosen in general fall into a weird place brought on by their semi-efficient setup right from the start.

I mean, if the church of the Seven had just been floundering around inefficiently, as it first seemed, it wouldn't be a problem. Shatter, shackle, utilize the remains.

If someone with the authority of the Seven or at least the Father had taken over the High Septon and the Most Faithful early on, around our Braavos-time, and reorganized the Church of the Seven into something we have to take seriously, like the Red Faith, then we could work with that too.

But as it is, we have a mess.
Seven Chosen, to few to work effectivly on the entire continent.
Some of them kinda competent, but mostly not, because Bloodraven killed those with potential early on.
Kinda trying to be good, but not good at it.
Kinda protecting a few people, but in the same breath opposing our infiltration that will bring much greater safety.
Too helpful and sympathetic to kill out of hand, to weak too negotiate with as equals, too obstinate to be subsumed.
 
Azel said:
Ok. Let me be honest. And blunt.

Danelle is one of your Good pet characters and you don't like the idea of her having conflict with Viserys, so you write her as a mix of doormat and a strawman.

She has objections, but they are automatically and easily resolved and she is readily willing to blindly ignore Viserys more callous habits and marching along with his "Hard Man Making Hard Decisions While Harr" nonsense instead of calling him out on it. She is even willing to betray her own faith and principles, if it just means pleasing Viserys.

And whenever people rebel against her, you pull the "the Companions will be sad" card to protect her, despite it being amply clear for everyone that the conflict is inevitable, unless she throws away her entire beliefs and faith in the name of pandering to Viserys.
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OK, I'll be blunt in return, no I'm not playing favorites and trying to shift her character so you guys won't kill her. Quite frankly I wish she would fall off the edge of the world like Aberi, but I can't just let you guys kill her without compromising the characterization of a third to half the companions so I'm left slipping into the head of a character I would rather not deal with, wondering if that get passed through my writing and that is why the segments with the Chosen are just unpleasant for everyone.
 
Azel said:
Ok. Let me be honest. And blunt.

Danelle is one of your Good pet characters and you don't like the idea of her having conflict with Viserys, so you write her as a mix of doormat and a strawman.

She has objections, but they are automatically and easily resolved and she is readily willing to blindly ignore Viserys more callous habits and marching along with his "Hard Man Making Hard Decisions While Harr" nonsense instead of calling him out on it. She is even willing to betray her own faith and principles, if it just means pleasing Viserys.

And whenever people rebel against her, you pull the "the Companions will be sad" card to protect her, despite it being amply clear for everyone that the conflict is inevitable, unless she throws away her entire beliefs and faith in the name of pandering to Viserys.
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I just don't see conflict with her as inevitable, not like I expect with Lucan.

Danelle has convictions, but she's already compromised them in her choice of companions, some of whom she knows are allies with the Fey who are trying to whammy the Reach. She might not like us, might think we're doing everything wrong, but she's a big fish in a small pond and she knows it. She and her friends struggle to protect the Reach, so she knows she can't fill our shoes and if they tried to remove us they would almost certainly be soundly defeated. All that boils down to her biting her tongue when she would really like to preach at us.

In the end, she'll acquiesce, so long as we don't do something horrible.
 
DragonParadox said:
OK, I'll be blunt in return, no I'm not playing favorites and trying to shift her character so you guys won't kill her. Quite frankly I wish she would fall off the edge of the world like Aberi, but I can't just let you guys kill her without compromising the characterization of a third to half the companions so I'm left slipping into the head of a character I would rather not deal with, wondering if that get passed through my writing and that is why the segments with the Chosen are just unpleasant for everyone.
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She could always go with Lucan and do [REDACTED] in [REDACTED]. Or have an unfortunate accident while hunting squids. Or just plain not appear for one reason or another.

Look. The world isn't just Viserys. If you want to get rid of the character, there are options, and that they showed up here was pretty optional.
 
DragonParadox said:
OK, I'll be blunt in return, no I'm not playing favorites and trying to shift her character so you guys won't kill her. Quite frankly I wish she would fall off the edge of the world like Aberi, but I can't just let you guys kill her without compromising the characterization of a third to half the companions so I'm left slipping into the head of a character I would rather not deal with, wondering if that get passed through my writing and that is why the segments with the Chosen are just unpleasant for everyone.
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Regarding the Companions, the thing is conflict is an inevitability between us and the Chosen. We're planning on humbling their entire religion and have been for nearly the entire quest (this alongside the various reasons Danelle would be horrified by Viserys), and the whole thing with the Court of Stars thrown into the mix makes chances of not fighting the Westerosi adventurers slim at best. Would it somehow be easier on the Companions if Danelle just struck the first blow or what? They're not going to just sit quietly and wait for us to do our thing, they will say enough is enough and rise against us.
Goldfish said:
I just don't see conflict with her as inevitable, not like I expect with Lucan.

Danelle has convictions, but she's already compromised them in her choice of companions, some of whom she knows are allies with the Fey who are trying to whammy the Reach. She might not like us, might think we're doing everything wrong, but she's a big fish in a small pond and she knows it. She and her friends struggle to protect the Reach, so she knows she can't fill our shoes and if they tried to remove us they would almost certainly be soundly defeated. All that boils down to her biting her tongue when she would really like to preach at us.

In the end, she'll acquiesce, so long as we don't do something horrible.
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I don't see her sitting aside. If we're going to kill Lucan and humble the Faith, she's not just going to meekly accept it. I don't see how people believe we can kill Lucan and somehow avoid fighting Danelle. She sees the man as an ally even if he isn't a close companion of hers.
 
DragonParadox said:
OK, I'll be blunt in return, no I'm not playing favorites and trying to shift her character so you guys won't kill her. Quite frankly I wish she would fall off the edge of the world like Aberi, but I can't just let you guys kill her without compromising the characterization of a third to half the companions so I'm left slipping into the head of a character I would rather not deal with, wondering if that get passed through my writing and that is why the segments with the Chosen are just unpleasant for everyone.
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Should this entire thing even be pleasant for anyone in general though?

In-story, it doesn't seem like anyone has any good options, on either side. But that's a natural progression of the story and means that someone must compromise on their own ideals in order to finally take action. Viserys can't play chicken forever, especially if the Chosen decide to oppose him through more subtle, yet still poisonous or toxic means, and none of the Companions can stand ready to defend them if it legitimately risks massive loss of life or instability.

Confrontation is inevitable, but there's no reason to complain there wasn't anywhere the story can go from this point to resolve it.
 
Azel said:
She could always go with Lucan and do [REDACTED] in [REDACTED]. Or have an unfortunate accident while hunting squids. Or just plain not appear for one reason or another.

Look. The world isn't just Viserys. If you want to get rid of the character, there are options, and that they showed up here was pretty optional.
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Fair point It seems to me like Danelle obviously isn't fun for anyone here as a narrative element. There are people whose SoD is not shaken by her character, but I'm just not seeing anyone who would miss her presence in the plot, myself included. Would you guys mind if I just swept her off the board for an indeterminate about of time on a mission from her patron?
 
Goldfish said:
I just don't see conflict with her as inevitable, not like I expect with Lucan.

Danelle has convictions, but she's already compromised them in her choice of companions, some of whom she knows are allies with the Fey who are trying to whammy the Reach. She might not like us, might think we're doing everything wrong, but she's a big fish in a small pond and she knows it. She and her friends struggle to protect the Reach, so she knows she can't fill our shoes and if they tried to remove us they would almost certainly be soundly defeated. All that boils down to her biting her tongue when she would really like to preach at us.

In the end, she'll acquiesce, so long as we don't do something horrible.
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And frankly, I hate her more every time she compromises her morals like that, since it makes her nothing more then an annoyance. She isn't providing meaningful conflict or driving the story. She is just there. Ready to make frowny faces and spark salt.
 
Duesal said:
Regarding the Companions, the thing is conflict is an inevitability between us and the Chosen. We're planning on humbling their entire religion and have been for nearly the entire quest (this alongside the various reasons Danelle would be horrified by Viserys), and the whole thing with the Court of Stars thrown into the mix makes chances of not fighting the Westerosi adventurers slim at best. Would it somehow be easier on the Companions if Danelle just struck the first blow or what?
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Yes, very much so. Killing a sympathetic enemy is a lot simpler when they have actually made the choice to be an enemy.
 
DragonParadox said:
Fair point It seems to me like Danelle obviously isn't fun for anyone here as a narrative element. There are people whose SoD is not shaken by her character, but I'm just not seeing anyone who would miss her presence in the plot, myself included. Would you guys mind if I just swept her off the board for an indeterminate about of time on a mission from her patron?
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It's a fair point. Does the Maiden want to throw away a powerful PC on a fool's gambit? She could just order her to absence herself and advance her own goals through other means.
 
...is his a bad time for me to bring up that we were supposed to monitor whether the Chosen of Smith gets any new ingridient/materials dead drops, so that we can gun for the Stranger's Chosen who leaves them?
:V
 
I like Danelle as a narrative element. Her existence (and those of people like her) is what keeps the old moral dilemma of our pact with the OG alive. Furthermore, she's quite a good "morality challenge" character, and she creates actual long-term Diplomatic issues for us. Having to incrementally Diplomance her at every meeting is fun, and gives the quest a bit of an intrigue aspect that is often lost as we bulldoze Lord after Lord to get their oaths.
 
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