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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Crake said:
This is less heartless than you're making it out to be. We are literally trying to build an equitable and comfortable afterlife that most people can be happy in
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Perhaps the tax code can be revised to encourage consensual, uh, emigration once the small matter of constructing a new heaven has been resolved?

How about the first reincarnation is tax free, and the reincarnated is free to select a longer lived species for their new lifetime, to compensate for any previous capricious circumstances of birth in their first lifetime?
 
FieryTheAngels said:
Perhaps the tax code can be revised to encourage consensual, uh, emigration once the small matter of constructing a new heaven has been resolved?

How about the first reincarnation is tax free, and the reincarnated is free to select a longer lived species for their new lifetime, to compensate for any previous capricious circumstances of birth in their first lifetime?
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When you shift the tax burden, even as a delay, away from one demographic and onto the others, they will start feeling the weight first. This is demonstrated in A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism when the Moot tried pushing through similar reforms which gave exemptions due to their differing living circumstances.

There's a hidden cost to everything, and it's not fair that others should pay the price when the amount of wealth one could gather in even one short life time could be quite a lot.
 
Goldfish said:
--[X] Income Brackets & Annual Tax Rates
----[X] Income below Imperial Median = 0%
----[X] Imperial Median to +70% Median = 20%
----[X] +71% Median to +80% Median = 30%
----[X] +81% Median to +100% Median = 40%
----[X] +101% Median to +200% Median = 45%
----[X] +201% Median to +500% Median = 50%
----[X] +501% Median to +2,000% Median = 60%
----[X] +2,001% Median to +10,000% Median = 70%
----[X] +10,001% Median to +100,000% Median = 80%
----[X] +100,001% Median to +1,000,000% Median = 90%
----[X] In excess of +1,000,000% = 95%
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This scale feels rather scattershot to me.

People making... let's say thirty dollars an hour? Roughly 3 times the average us salary. Get 15 dollars an hour before taxes.

Your kicking the lower and middle class as well as the upperclass.

I THINK anyway, I might be crazy.
 
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Crake said:
it's not fair that others should pay the price when the amount of wealth one could gather in even one short life time could be quite a lot
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Surely you can recognize the unfairness in longer lived species getting a 'natural exemption' from some taxes?

Perhaps longer lived species could be taxed as if they were forced to reincarnate at the lifespan of the shorter lived species?
 
[X] Goldfish
I'm lost as all fuck in what the discussion's been about for the last ~7 pages, but whatever, I'm glad you guys came up with something without major salts blowing up.
 
zxzx24 said:
This scale feels rather scattershot to me.

People making... let's say thirty dollars an hour? Roughly 3 times the average us salary. Get 15 dollars an hour before taxes.

Your kicking the lower and middle class in the balls as well as the upperclass.

I THINK anyway, I might be crazy.
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Huh? My proposal has those who make less than the average income in the Imperium paying no taxes at all. And it only increases to 20% tax for those who make between the median and 70% over the median. That is a very low tax rate by modern standards. Most people by far will fall into these categories. The next few categories, which could reasonably be considered the range between upper middle class and very well off, are hardly extreme.
FieryTheAngels said:
Surely you can recognize the unfairness in longer lived species getting a 'natural exemption' from some taxes?

Perhaps longer lived species could be taxed as if they were forced to reincarnate at the lifespan of the shorter lived species?
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No, I don't see the inherent unfairness in that, no more than the unfairness of there being some species who live centuries longer than humans, or possibly even indefinitely.

Should we also artificially limit the lifespans of the longer-lived races to make it more fair?

You know, there is nothing stopping someone from choosing to be Reincarnated into something with a longer lifespan?
 
Goldfish said:
You know, there is nothing stopping someone from choosing to be Reincarnated into something with a longer lifespan?
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If that is a choice, then the discrimination can be largely erased by making the first reincarnation tax free.

Goldfish said:
The next few categories, which could reasonably be considered the range between upper middle class and very well off, are hardly extreme.
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We should perhaps survey the tax regimes of our neighbors for comparison.
 
zxzx24 said:
People making... let's say thirty dollars an hour? Roughly 3 times the average us salary. Get 15 dollars an hour before taxes.
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I think your average income is too low:

If Wikipedia is correct the average full time employed American makes 865 $ a week.
Assuming 40 hours a week thats 21 $ and 63 Cent per hour.
With the current plan there is only income tax at 170% median income and above.
170% of the median would be 36 $ and 76 Cent per hour.

Edit: Spelling
 
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Remember in economic assumptions made here, that in this time period analogue, currency has higher buying power.
 
Crake said:
Remember in economic assumptions made here, that in this time period analogue, currency has higher buying power.
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And people have far fewer expenses to deal with. They aren't paying for electricity, water and sewage service, cell phones internet, cable or satellite tv services, Netflix, etc.
 
FieryTheAngels said:
If that is a choice, then the discrimination can be largely erased by making the first reincarnation tax free.
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We aren't trying to encourage people to Reincarnate here, but we recognize that some people with the means are going to do it.

We're actually trying to discourage people from continually Reincarnating, so giving them a free pass on their first one is detrimental to that goal.
 
Also this doesn't point out that someone might try to work a tax avoidance scheme by deliberately making their descendant born with a naturally short lifespan in order to have them manage inherited business interests for a set period of time and avoid paying after one reincarnation into a longer-lived I.E Centuries long species, like an elemental Elf variety. The deliberate median range adjustment and no exclusions to the policy is to deal with compounding issues of those with long lifespans naturally compounding wealth over a long life time, but the absence of revenue streams by a significant portion of the populace for slack periods of centuries at a time?

What you have is anyone wealthy and clever enough for a bit of financial chicanery to delay paying their taxes for centuries. Eventually this kind of fraud will catch up to them but it's a needless clog in the system otherwise.
 
Finally have a minute to take a break and talk about this. I have some problems with where this vote is going and the suppositions behind it. We started on inheritance in the face of practical vectors of immortality and somehow ended on a general income tax. We don't even have a real cause for it since we are already paying for all existing government functions. We could find stuff, but that is the definition of a baseless cash grab.

We're also still pushing inheritance on people who don't need it anymore. Especially with the tax part of that. If someone is already within our definition of "acceptable " wealth then what is the justification for taking 20% when they die?

The implicit assumption that it's okay to just take stuff because we decided the person who has it doesn't need it that badly is irritating. In some cases it's unavoidable because it will cause major issues otherwise, or because we need the revenue to be a government. A majority of this tax plan doesn't meet either of those metrics.
 
FieryTheAngels said:
I understand that once the New Imperial Heaven has been established, their souls are required to propel Viserys to new heights of divine power, but until then isn't casting their souls adrift in the astral wastelands a preventable tragedy?
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They only get cast into the Astral Wastelands if they're atheists/heretics, and the vast majority of citizens follow one of the Imperial Gods. They'd just go to the relevant afterlives.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Finally have a minute to take a break and talk about this. I have some problems with where this vote is going and the suppositions behind it. We started on inheritance in the face of practical vectors of immortality and somehow ended on a general income tax. We don't even have a real cause for it since we are already paying for all existing government functions. We could find stuff, but that is the definition of a baseless cash grab.

We're also still pushing inheritance on people who don't need it anymore. Especially with the tax part of that. If someone is already within our definition of "acceptable " wealth then what is the justification for taking 20% when they die?

The implicit assumption that it's okay to just take stuff because we decided the person who has it doesn't need it that badly is irritating. In some cases it's unavoidable because it will cause major issues otherwise, or because we need the revenue to be a government. A majority of this tax plan doesn't meet either of those metrics.
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If not now, when? We're essentially paying for everything out of our own pocket, I believe, using the earnings from our companies, raiding proceeds, and other merchant ventures. In the long run, it is preferable for the state to be able to support itself on the taxes it collects from its citizens.

The tax on Reincarnation is to discourage continual use of the practice, and to help prevent theoretical immortals from eventually amassing enough wealth to outright control the Imperium. I don't personally see the need for this, but most everyone else who cares about the subject has been pretty adamant, so I included it. There's nothing saying we can't change the policy in the future, or introduce exceptions (such as ones encouraging Reincarnated folks to immigrate to a new colony world in lieu of taxing their assets).

Do ya'll want to try to phase the tax plan in over the next few years rather than introducing it all at once?
 
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BronzeTongue said:
Finally have a minute to take a break and talk about this. I have some problems with where this vote is going and the suppositions behind it. We started on inheritance in the face of practical vectors of immortality and somehow ended on a general income tax. We don't even have a real cause for it since we are already paying for all existing government functions. We could find stuff, but that is the definition of a baseless cash grab.

We're also still pushing inheritance on people who don't need it anymore. Especially with the tax part of that. If someone is already within our definition of "acceptable " wealth then what is the justification for taking 20% when they die?

The implicit assumption that it's okay to just take stuff because we decided the person who has it doesn't need it that badly is irritating. In some cases it's unavoidable because it will cause major issues otherwise, or because we need the revenue to be a government. A majority of this tax plan doesn't meet either of those metrics.
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What exactly are you even proposing? That no one pays any taxes? Based on... what supposition? That the government taking money for "no reason" is worse? The base reasoning is that the Government provides services but ALSO organizes revenue streams which it manages to create better services, drive industries and innovation, and pay for government salaries. That... is the reason.

Are you arguing for... less government? Because that's the only practical way around it. And uh... you might be talking to the wrong crowd, because we're pretty all for a lot of government, as far as policy making decisions for the Imperium goes.
 
Crake said:
Are you arguing for... less government? Because that's the only practical way around it. And uh... you might be talking to the wrong crowd, because we're pretty all for a lot of government, as far as policy making decisions for the Imperium goes.
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Our bureaucracy shall ever expand to meet the needs of our bureaucracy!
And of course Viserys' need for control.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Dec 23, 2019 at 12:56 PM, finished with 70 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] Marriage, Death, and Taxes
    -[X] Marriage:
    --[X] Marriage is defined as the legal union between two or more consenting parties, each of of whom is considered an adult of their species by Imperial law.
    ---[X] In addition to being of age, to be considered capable of giving consent one must be free of magical compulsion or possession, and of sufficient intelligence (i.e. sentience) to comprehend the basic legal obligations inherent to the marriage contract. Consent cannot be given under duress.
    -[X] Clarification of Inheritance:
    --[X] An individual's children, both those legitimately born within the bounds of a marriage contract and those illegitimately born outside of such a contract, but who were later officially recognized, are considered their legal heirs. This ruling extends to any children one may have legally adopted into their family, but who do not share significant ties of blood relation.
    ---[X] Additionally, an individual has full control over the disbersement of their worldly assets to legal heirs, including the designation of a primary heir to receive inheritable titles of nobility.
    -[X] Inheritance and Reincarnation Taxes:
    --[X] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 80% of the value of one's estate is to be distributed to one's heirs after any outstanding debts have been settled.
    ---[X] In instances where the Reincarnated subject and his or her heirs are unable to agree upon the division of non-monetary assets, an impartial mediator will by appointed by the Imperium to oversee arbitration between the involved parties. Mediators will have binding authority to divide non-monetary assets should arbitration fail.
    ---[X] The assets a Reincarnated subject retains or accumulates after Reincarnation are not subject to further division among previous heirs, though any heirs produced following the latest Reincarnation do so benefit.
    --[X] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 20% of the value of one's estate is to be paid as a tax to the Imperium should the Reincarnated subject have no living heirs.
    ---[X] Upon subsequent instances of Reincarnation without an heir, the rate of taxation will increase in 20% increments, to a maximum tax rate per Reincarnation of 80% of total assets.
    --[X] *State-sanctioned Reincarnation includes any instance of an individual being Reincarnated after falling in service to the Imperium as part of their assigned duties.
    -[X] Property Tax:
    --[X] A 1% Property Tax will be levied against the holdings of all legal entities (private citizens, guilds, merchant consortiums, companies, etc) operating within the Imperium which are not wholly owned and operated by the state if the total assessed value of their properties exceeds 1,000 IM.
    -[X] Income Tax:
    --[X] An Income Tax will be applied to all legal entities (private citizens, guilds, merchant consortiums, companies, etc) operating within the Imperium which are not wholly owned and operated by the state, with annual rates determined by the income generated by each entity. Income-based tax brackets and the rates associated with them are subject to periodic adjustment in response to various economic factors, though such adjustments must be announced at least one year in advance of implementation.
    ---[X] Income Brackets & Annual Tax Rates
    ----[X] Income below Imperial Median = 0%
    ----[X] Imperial Median to +70% Median = 20%
    ----[X] +71% Median to +80% Median = 30%
    ----[X] +81% Median to +100% Median = 40%
    ----[X] +101% Median to +200% Median = 45%
    ----[X] +201% Median to +500% Median = 50%
    ----[X] +501% Median to +2,000% Median = 60%
    ----[X] +2,001% Median to +10,000% Median = 70%
    ----[X] +10,001% Median to +100,000% Median = 80%
    ----[X] +100,001% Median to +1,000,000% Median = 90%
    ----[X] In excess of +1,000,000% = 95%
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