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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Goldfish said:
Suggestions for fixing it?
Or maybe this?
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The second one is indeed far better. However, just to check : @DragonParadox, where's that post with average incomes for various professions? And how much does a house or smallfolk farm cost?

BronzeTongue said:
Sorry, I just got to work, can't really post. Should have waited until I had a minute to be more specific.

I don't think something like a progressive tax starting at 20-30% of red scale holdings income for individuals would be too complicated or unreasonable. A single person making over 20% of a state run holding company's revenue is probably making enough to be a potential problem. I just don't know how to convince anyone that it's acceptable IC. In any case, the floor for this tax applying should be so high that it effectively doesn't apply to anyone currently. No one has had the time to accumulate the kind of wealth that we're worried about challenging us. It will also make it easier to put this law on the books it if doesn't apply to anyone, and easier to actually enforce if it's been on the books for years by the time anyone thinks to complain.
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You're looking for a tax that does nothing but keep the mega-wealthy in check. Goldfish and I are implementing fairly standard progressive wealth taxes (one on income and a smaller one on capital) which will also keep the mega-wealthy in check.

@DragonParadox, please tell me if I'm wrong :
Currently in-setting there isn't a flat income tax for the rich. Instead, there are specific taxes on the production of certain types of goods, and tolls on roads and ports for merchants. This suggestion suggests that we will remove or lower many of these taxes, and instead tax overall income/property.
Does Braavos tax dividends at all?

This makes us more able to respond to flexible economic situations. No "this rich businessman pays no taxes because we didn't think to tax human souls", or whatever weird new way to make money just became possible with magic. And this system also applies far, far better to a service economy (and ours is growing fast!).
 
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Goldfish said:
That's edging toward writing an actual tax code. Really hoping to keep this simple.
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You don't have to write that out in detail.
Just outline the basic idea, not to have a property tax in itself that can be fought over, but instead demand taxes for public tasks we are fullfilling.
It just happens that the costs of these closely aligns with the size of a property and wether its in a city or not.
You don't need any more details or numbers, I think.
 
Artemis1992 said:
@Goldfish
Another option for the Property Tax would not be to tax the property itself, but instead our services to it.
The adjacent streets being cleaned and repaired after the use through their people, carriages and animals? That's a tax.
The water they draw and the dirty water they put back in our sewer system? That's a tax.
And as soon as we have garbage collection (or do we have that already), that's a tax too.

That way we don't have to judge the value of the property at all, and charge by other, easier to determine factors.
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The trouble with that is : it hits the poorest just as hard as the richest (even a hovel fetches water from the well!) and it doesn't help with the reason we're thinking of taxing property : accumulating property that's unused and/or generates no income causes power-concentration issues among the immortal elites but doesn't fall under an income tax. If they don't use a property, none of those service taxes would apply.
 
Artemis1992 said:
You don't have to write that out in detail.
Just outline the basic idea, not to have a property tax in itself that can be fought over, but instead demand taxes for public tasks we are fullfilling.
It just happens that the costs of these closely aligns with the size of a property and wether its in a city or not.
You don't need any more details or numbers, I think.
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True, but do we even need to charge for those services? Magic makes so many things which would normally be quite costly instead cost little to nothing. I would rather just provide those services for free, as part of creating and maintaining a clean, functional society in which everyone can live comfortably.

The vast majority of people are never going to have enough property to exceed the proposed 1,000 IM threshold, and for those who do, a flat 1% tax is hardly onerous.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
@DragonParadox, please tell me if I'm wrong :
Currently in-setting there isn't a flat income tax for the rich. Instead, there are specific taxes on the production of certain types of goods, and tolls on roads and ports for merchants. This suggestion suggests that we will remove or lower many of these taxes, and instead tax overall income/property.
Does Braavos tax dividends at all?
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That is correct on the specific taxes. Braavos taxes dividends as does Volantis and Myr but not Tyrosh or Lys.
 
It's still a work in progress, but I'm posting this now so we can start voting. More suggestions are welcome, as are competing plans.

[X] Marriage, Death, and Taxes
-[X] Marriage:
--[X] Marriage is defined as the legal union between two or more consenting parties, each of of whom is considered an adult of their species by Imperial law.
---[X] In addition to being of age, to be considered capable of giving consent one must be free of magical compulsion or possession, and of sufficient intelligence (i.e. sentience) to comprehend the basic legal obligations inherent to the marriage contract. Consent cannot be given under duress.
-[X] Clarification of Inheritance:
--[X] An individual's children, both those legitimately born within the bounds of a marriage contract and those illegitimately born outside of such a contract, but who were later officially recognized, are considered their legal heirs. This ruling extends to any children one may have legally adopted into their family, but who do not share significant ties of blood relation.
---[X] Additionally, an individual has full control over the disbersement of their worldly assets to legal heirs, including the designation of a primary heir to receive inheritable titles of nobility.
-[X] Inheritance and Reincarnation Taxes:
--[X] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 80% of the value of one's estate is to be distributed to one's heirs after any outstanding debts have been settled.
---[X] In instances where the Reincarnated subject and his or her heirs are unable to agree upon the division of non-monetary assets, an impartial mediator will by appointed by the Imperium to oversee arbitration between the involved parties. Mediators will have binding authority to divide non-monetary assets should arbitration fail.
---[X] The assets a Reincarnated subject retains or accumulates after Reincarnation are not subject to further division among previous heirs, though any heirs produced following the latest Reincarnation do so benefit.
--[X] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 20% of the value of one's estate is to be paid as a tax to the Imperium should the Reincarnated subject have no living heirs.
---[X] Upon subsequent instances of Reincarnation without an heir, the rate of taxation will increase in 20% increments, to a maximum tax rate per Reincarnation of 80% of total assets.
--[X] *State-sanctioned Reincarnation includes any instance of an individual being Reincarnated after falling in service to the Imperium as part of their assigned duties.
-[X] Property Tax:
--[X] A 1% Property Tax will be levied against the holdings of all legal entities (private citizens, guilds, merchant consortiums, companies, etc) operating within the Imperium which are not wholly owned and operated by the state if the total assessed value of their properties exceeds 1,000 IM.
-[X] Income Tax:
--[X] An Income Tax will be applied to all legal entities (private citizens, guilds, merchant consortiums, companies, etc) operating within the Imperium which are not wholly owned and operated by the state, with annual rates determined by the income generated by each entity. Income-based tax brackets and the rates associated with them are subject to periodic adjustment in response to various economic factors, though such adjustments must be announced at least one year in advance of implementation.
---[X] Income Brackets & Annual Tax Rates
----[X] Income below Imperial Median = 0%
----[X] Imperial Median to +70% Median = 20%
----[X] +71% Median to +80% Median = 30%
----[X] +81% Median to +100% Median = 40%
----[X] +101% Median to +200% Median = 45%
----[X] +201% Median to +500% Median = 50%
----[X] +501% Median to +2,000% Median = 60%
----[X] +2,001% Median to +10,000% Median = 70%
----[X] +10,001% Median to +100,000% Median = 80%
----[X] +100,001% Median to +1,000,000% Median = 90%
----[X] In excess of +1,000,000% = 95%
 
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Bah, words words words. If anyone wants to fuck with consent and doesn't affect you, let them be. They can choose who's to carry their legacy whatever.

[X] Pride? Law
 
@Goldfish, I suggest removing the "Reincarnation tax" and instead make it a "80% of your stuff goes to your heirs" thing.
@BronzeTongue had a point about resentment yesterday.

And this vote is only about marriage, you can remove the rest.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
@Goldfish, I suggest removing the "Reincarnation tax" and instead make it a "80% of your stuff goes to your heirs" thing.
@BronzeTongue had a point about resentment yesterday.

And this vote is only about marriage, you can remove the rest.
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You mean this stuff?

-[] Inheritance Taxes:
--[] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 80% of the value of one's estate is to be distributed to one's heirs after any outstanding debts have been settled.
---[] In instances where the Reincarnated subject and his or her heirs are unable to agree upon the division of non-monetary assets, an impartial mediator will by appointed by the Imperium to oversee arbitration between the involved parties. Mediators will have binding authority to divide non-monetary assets should arbitration fail.
---[] The assets a Reincarnated subject retains or accumulates after Reincarnation are not subject to further division among previous heirs, though any heirs produced following the latest Reincarnation do so benefit.
--[] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 20% of the value of one's estate is to be paid as a tax to the Imperium should the Reincarnated subject have no living heirs.
---[] Upon subsequent instances of Reincarnation without an heir, the rate of taxation will increase in 20% increments, to a maximum tax rate per Reincarnation of 80% of total assets.
--[] *State-sanctioned Reincarnation includes any instance of an individual being Reincarnated after falling in service to the Imperium as part of their assigned duties.
 
FieryTheAngels said:
The reincarnation tax discriminates against short lived species, and in particular the current human majority. Perhaps the first few thousand years of reincarnation could be guaranteed to be 'state-sanctioned'?
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That really has no conception of just how long even a hundred years of economic involvement is, dude. That's basically giving tacit permission to hoard wealth for most of an entire age to literally everyone.

Edit: Also, few species have a maximum life span in our realm less than that of a human, the base median life expectancy measurement, everyone is expected to live to maximum of old age either through non-reincarnation resurrection or through avoidance of death by unnatural causes 'til reincarnation or final death, and lastly anyone who does have a very short lifespan but who wishes to engage in reincarnation can probably increase their overall lifespan for the very, very infinitesimally small subset of people who gather large amounts of wealth in that timeframe that taxation hurts them worse than most.
 
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Goldfish said:
You mean this stuff?

-[] Inheritance Taxes:
--[] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 80% of the value of one's estate is to be distributed to one's heirs after any outstanding debts have been settled.
---[] In instances where the Reincarnated subject and his or her heirs are unable to agree upon the division of non-monetary assets, an impartial mediator will by appointed by the Imperium to oversee arbitration between the involved parties. Mediators will have binding authority to divide non-monetary assets should arbitration fail.
---[] The assets a Reincarnated subject retains or accumulates after Reincarnation are not subject to further division among previous heirs, though any heirs produced following the latest Reincarnation do so benefit.
--[] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 20% of the value of one's estate is to be paid as a tax to the Imperium should the Reincarnated subject have no living heirs.
---[] Upon subsequent instances of Reincarnation without an heir, the rate of taxation will increase in 20% increments, to a maximum tax rate per Reincarnation of 80% of total assets.
--[] *State-sanctioned Reincarnation includes any instance of an individual being Reincarnated after falling in service to the Imperium as part of their assigned duties.
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Yes. Do that and get my vote, otherwise I'll just set up a competing vote.

I want to see the update where we talk about inheritance and long-term tax issues. What do the Companions think of it?
And for that vote I will make a long write-in. But for the marriage vote your one is perfect.

FieryTheAngels said:
The reincarnation tax discriminates against short lived species, and in particular the current human majority. Perhaps the first few thousand years of reincarnation could be guaranteed to be 'state-sanctioned'?
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Reincarnation is an unsustainable method of immortality. Use others, or deal with it.
In any case immortality will forever be a luxury good that most people can't get, not a basic right everyone will have.
 
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Crake said:
That really has no conception of just how long even a hundred years of economic involvement is, dude. That's basically giving tacit permission to hoard wealth for most of an entire age to literally everyone
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It's just putting them on a level playing field with the long lived species. Otherwise, we are choosing for the long lived species to be the wealthy of our society.

TalonofAnathrax said:
immortality will forever be a luxury good that most people can't get
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Well at least we've established that sufficient wealth is literally a matter of life and death.
 
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FieryTheAngels said:
Well at least we've established that sufficient wealth is literally a matter of life and death.
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This is less heartless than you're making it out to be. We are literally trying to build an equitable and comfortable afterlife that most people can be happy in. Resources in this hereafter are not as finite to have an enjoyable experience as they are in the material realm.
 
FieryTheAngels said:
Well at least we've established that sufficient wealth is literally a matter of life and death.
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It is materially impossible to provide immortality for everyone without turning everyone into Undead (and being Undead is always bad).
Therefore we are focusing on creating a good afterlife. Preliminary research is already being done.

[X] Goldfish
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
It is materially impossible to provide immortality for everyone without turning everyone into Undead (and being Undead is always bad).
Therefore we are focusing on creating a good afterlife. Preliminary research is already being done.

[X] Goldfish
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I'm not quite sure it's impossible, we'll have to see the mechanics for turning souls of the dead into Outsiders.
If the cost is low enough, we might offer everyone who doesn't want to move on to another deity's afterlife a continuation of existance as immortal outsider.

But we'll have to learn a lot more about the details involved, costs, how it changes a person and other factors, before working with that in any way.

[X] Goldfish
 
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Even living as a petitioner until deciding on a divine realm to eventually be molded into an Outsider in would probably be fine. Or staying indefinitely in the Imperial Dream. It's free real estate.
 
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