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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Duesal said:
Reality warping on a colossal scale. If R'hllor got enough worshippers he was going to somehow force the hundreds if not thousands of different enemies into a single box of "Other" which I guess would limit them somehow?
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This is how the gods broke the primordial chaos to creation, so... it should?

It relies upon the principles that allow the universe to even exist in the first place. It would work, how precisely is up in the air.

BronzeTongue said:
His plan strikes me as a pretty hefty gamble; how does he know the void can be controlled that way? It's from outside of creation in a way only matched by the far realms as far as we know. The others might be vulnerable to this tactic, but it also implicitly makes room at the cosmic table for something more intrinsically toxic than the Abyss itself.

If the void is capable of metastasizing to any degree then giving them this kind of foothold could just lead to multiple other tier threats popping up as the horrific soul cancer spreads.
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egoo said:
I'm sure there would be a way for dead to move to other afterlives if they so choose -

Bottom line, we will make Imperial Outsiders, and entities for guiding souls around when Imperial Dream is activated.

But the base state would be "Imperial Dream only".

Movement starting only from there, as a hub, as you said.
But not connecting the Gods to ID, no.

I think it would, again, kinda tamper with the ID's narrative, which I think we want to keep as pure of other Deities' influence as we can.
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True and this is in part also to protect them as much as the Imperial Dream. In the event the Dream fails, the empire gets crushed, the party dies. Something has to take over and fight on.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Keep in mind he has gained the worship of most of a continent one of the strongest gods in the world and that trend did not look like it was reversing, if anything Viserys has done more to blunt it than anything else that has come about since the Doom.
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Stunt his individual growth, yea, but his ultimate goal is to become the sole embodiment of Light. Surely R'hllor doesn't believe he could ascend as such entirely unchanged? He has already been changed by his worshipers.
 
zxzx24 said:
This is how the gods broke the primordial chaos to creation, so... it should?

It relies upon the principles that allow the universe to even exist in the first place. It would work, how precisely is up in the air.
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Primordial chaos was still a part of the world in its own way. My contention is that if the void is truly from outside that, then what R'hllor is doing is effectively inviting an armed serial killer into his house to resolve their differences over a game of chess.

Even if it's inside agents can get caught like this, if the main body of the threat isn't even part of the cosmos does it need to follow any of those rules in its other dealings? If it doesn't, then it can just find another cutout group to use somewhere else.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
he reminds me of Varys with his wildly daring long-term plans that just might work...
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...well, that's not really a fair comparison now, is it? :V

R'hlor's plan basically is:
1) Get more followers,
2) Get Stronk,
3) Shape reality.

Varys' plan was:
1) Fuck around Asmodeus and Tiamat, make them headbutt each-other.
2) Win the lottery on freeing F!Aegon from their influence with an underpowered talisman.
3) Have F!Aegon take over 7 kingdoms, kill Viserys, and unite the Faith under them.
4) ?????
5) Profit!
...all while not getting absolutely murderblendered for being a traitor to fucking Asmodeus of all the people... and the Bitch-Queen.
Teleporting Outsider kill-squads are a thing if you anger a Deity sufficiently.
 
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egoo said:
...well, that's not really a fair comparison now, is it? :V

R'hlor's plan basically is:
1) Get more followers,
2) Get Stronk,
3) Shape reality.

Varys' plan was:
1) Fuck around Asmodeus and Tiamat, make them headbutt each-other.
2) Win the lottery on freeing F!Aegon from their influence with an underpowered talisman.
3) Have F!Aegon take over 7 kingdoms, kill Viserys, and unite the Faith under them.
4) ?????
5) Profit!
...all while not getting absolutely murderblendered for being a traitor to fucking Asmodeus of all the people... and the Bitch-Queen.
Teleporting Outsider kill-squads are a thing if you anger a Deity sufficiently.
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I love how you casually downplay the insane risks R'hllor is taking. He's basically setting the entirety of creation as his enemies (as he will either absorb or crush them) to then try to entrap the Void itself, which I remind you is endless annihilation which can destroy or subvert the very fabric of the Planes.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Primordial chaos was still a part of the world in its own way. My contention is that if the void is truly from outside that, then what R'hllor is doing is effectively inviting an armed serial killer into his house to resolve their differences over a game of chess.

Even if it's inside agents can get caught like this, if the main body of the threat isn't even part of the cosmos does it need to follow any of those rules in its other dealings? If it doesn't, then it can just find another cutout group to use somewhere else.
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As Viserys understands it the logic for naratively trapping the void rather than it spawns is as such:
  1. The Void is That Which is Not and wishes to return the world to Not Being
  2. By uniting All That Is one would create a narrative duality that transcends the current boundaries of the world. It would not be a matter of intentionally drawing the Void into the world that would be madness. Rather it would define the world in a cyclic nature and thus constrain it from ultimate victory. Think of it like chess or in a ASOIAF context Cyvasse, it's easier to play for stalemate than victory
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
I love how you casually downplay the insane risks R'hllor is taking. He's basically setting the entirety of creation as his enemies (as he will either absorb or crush them) to then try to entrap the Void itself, which I remind you is endless annihilation which can destroy or subvert the very fabric of the Planes.
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Eh, he's basically us.
He's got it covered.
:V

For real though, I just needed better contrast to moronicness of Varys.
 
[X] Crake

R'hllor's plan wasn't awful, I guess. I won't speculate on the odds of it actually succeeding, but I can see how establishing a stable duality, one locked in a never ending cycle of conflict between Light and Dark, would be an acceptable outcome when the alternative is the destruction of reality. After seeing or learning the fate of the Celestial Planes, with their armies of powerful Outsiders and myriad gods, he's made the understandable decision that the Void cannot be outright defeated.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Primordial chaos was still a part of the world in its own way. My contention is that if the void is truly from outside that, then what R'hllor is doing is effectively inviting an armed serial killer into his house to resolve their differences over a game of chess.

Even if it's inside agents can get caught like this, if the main body of the threat isn't even part of the cosmos does it need to follow any of those rules in its other dealings? If it doesn't, then it can just find another cutout group to use somewhere else.
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The same could easily be said of the chaos, and the far realm.

It's worked so far.

I can see why he thinks it would work again.
 
DragonParadox said:
[X] Crake

R'hllor's plan wasn't awful, I guess. I won't speculate on the odds of it actually succeeding, but I can see how establishing a stable duality, one locked in a never ending cycle of conflict between Light and Dark, would be an acceptable outcome when the alternative is the destruction of reality. After seeing or learning the fate of the Celestial Planes, with their armies of powerful Outsiders and myriad gods, he's made the understandable decision that the Void cannot be outright defeated.
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I think it's like how dnd cosmologies change. Like how the Abyss wasnt always a part of creation and neither was hell. At one point the Abyss was basically the first Void. The existential Chaos forming into an endless hoard of evil to rend existence into nonexistence. Then hell was made as a battle ground to serve as a bulwark against it.

Eventually creation reset so that it was no longer an outside problem and became just another spoke in the new cosmic wheel. But another existencital ender in the form of the Void came. A nonexistence comparative to reality in relation to the Chaos in comparison to Law that was the Abyss.

Now the non shitty parts fo the wheel (i.e. heaven, paradise, nirvana) are broken and the rest is bleeding into the void. The bmvoid bleeding into existence at the same time.

Rhloor's plan is basically to reshape the cosmology again. Take everything stubborn it and make a new cosmic wheel. With a unified Existence/Creation as one half and NonExistence/Void as the other.

This gives a way to check the Void in a similar way to how the Abyss was checked before. And as a bonus the new cosmology renders the surviving outer planes (hell, hades, abyss) irrelevant without their opposites to balance them in it and crushed them between the two new spokes in the new wheel.
 
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Crake said:
[X] "So if I should fail, your plan will remain in place. Perhaps me for a martyr to light that final pyre and transcend what was and what could yet be."
-[X] Contrary to your expectations, this is not you speaking out in anger, but understanding. If things had fallen so far by then, you would hope to spite the Void, Asmodeus or whatever had heralded the destruction of your ambitions and hopes, even if it's upon the back of R'hllor the Red's pitiless march against the dying of light.
-[X] Not that you intend to fail.
-[X] Smile at him gamely, speaking in genuine excitement. "Let's make sure that won't be necessary, shall we?"
-[X] "I and a collective of other deities gather in common purpose, to place She of Many Colors in a compromising position, one with which a mighty blow could be dealt to Her, their plans sent tumbling, out of the picture for as long as it takes for them to lick their wounds. If we should be so lucky, let it be another age. I will settle for a mere century. She will not have the time to regain that ground, while we will far beyond the horizon, as this is the pivot upon which the future shall tilt, as any avalanche begins."
-[X] You explain the essentials of the plan if not the details so he can better empower the foci of the trap.
-[X] If he agrees, you have some questions he might be able to answer, though you aren't expecting him to share everything or really anything. What he does will inform you of what he wants you to concern yourself with.
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Spruced up the language of the plan a bit.
 
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There is serious precedence for this plan under dnd. Existence used to be basically Order or Law with a duality of Good and Evil i.e. Jaziryan and Asmodeus. The the Abyss necessitated a reshaping or an expansion to Good and Evil as well as Law and Chaos.

Good and Evil is done. Paradise is gone. Nihilistic Hades sided with the Void. Hell and the Abyss have no opposites. So a new realignment dropping Good and Evil as well as Law and Chaos is possible. To one of purely Creation versus Destruction.
 
R'hllor's plan is one I would support if I knew for fact we had no chance at succeeding. It reeks of compromise and defeatism which is why we're not going out of our way to support it even if we could probably make it happen, even if we had to sacrifice everything to do so, but R'hllor himself acknowledges we would not make the same choices or sacrifices that Azor Ahai made, thus ultimately he can only get his martyr out of us on the back of our failure to deliver on our promise to make his plan unnecessary, by sealing away the Void forevermore and rebuilding the Planes, not as they were, but in a way that makes those sacrifices and the continual pain and suffering of the cosmos in an eternal cyclical struggle between light and dark avoidable.

R'hllor wants us to succeed, because if we fail and his plan ends up working, he is locking himself and every part connected to himself into an eternal existence of suffering and failure. Whenever he starts to gain too much ground, he and his followers will taste ashes.

Guys, we are probably about to avert a Wheel of Time esque D&D setting from taking place.
 
Think about it. R'hllor's plan is essentially to become The Light, and to make the Void into the Dark One.

He has Azor Ahai, or the Ta'veren, the chosen one who will act as their mortal agent and the corrector of cosmic balance. The savior before the end who will sacrifice everything... again and again and again, born under the same star, by the Dragonmount, just as Dany was originally.

You beautiful bastard.
 
Crake said:
Think about it. R'hllor's plan is essentially to become The Light, and to make the Void into the Dark One.

He has Azor Ahai, or the Ta'veren, the chosen one who will act as their mortal agent and the corrector of cosmic balance. The savior before the end who will sacrifice everything... again and again and again, born under the same star, by the Dragonmount, just as Dany was originally.

You beautiful bastard.
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tl;dr : classic fantasy is hella derivative...
 
I have always been puzzled by the "100% high octane Dragon fuel" tag, you know. It's really cool and has great FURY ROAD vibes (that film deserves all caps) but I can't actually match it to any specific events...
 
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