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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Abhishek M said:
That's I was wondering if we could sell them. Program them with commands and instructions like you would a construct and sell them to extra Planar armies as a nice and cheap looting creature. They go with the armies and we get paid cost plus markup (Either in cash, corpses or cured items).

We are a Planar Arms(sometimes literal arms)dealer now. Watch Lord of War and draw Inspiration!
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Yeah that's what I designed them for right from the start, it seem I have to redesign them slightly, since sorcerer creature apparently can only be cut on sentient creatures, even though the description says nothing about that, but that just mean, I have to find a way to add Hoard gullet as a SLA.
DragonParadox said:
  1. Not explicitly no, but as this is a spellcasting it requires a verbal and somatic component. Verbal components are performed using language and language requires sentience.
  2. You could yes, though it would take either finding a creature with that as a SLA and feeding it to the forge or research.
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What's the research requirement? We have fed creatures with SLA to the forge before and it's a first level spell, so the research requirement should be pretty low.

Also talking don't require sentience, full language do, but parrots can learn to say whole sentences, and they're not sentient.
egoo said:
We are already selling beasts to people around.
Valyrian arms-dealers, the best arms-dealers around!
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Yes we are, this creature is a proposal to add to our arsenal of things to sell.
 
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egoo said:
I am actually somewhat in agreement with @Acolyte here.
We don't present many choices to the creatures we make.

However, @dueselal has a point too - they aren't human, nor do they think like ones.
Plantforged creatures are all connected to Old Gods, from Drakenbeadts and Sunwolves, to Leshy and Treants.

I... am somewhat (just a tiiiiiiiiiiniest bit, really) uncomfortable with how we run this, but, again, they aren't human and they are ok with the way we do things - had we started to offer them all direct transportation to other places and basic payment to settle them down, more than 95% would still choose serving us, I'm sure.
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If there was actually a problem they could easily just leave our service unmolested. Nobody would stop them. Despite claims to the contrary, there is in fact a choice presented to all of them.
 
egoo said:
I am actually somewhat in agreement with @Acolyte here.
We don't present many choices to the creatures we make.

However, @Duesal has a point too - they aren't human, nor do they think like ones.
Plantforged creatures are all connected to Old Gods, from Drakenbeadts and Sunwolves, to Leshy and Treants.

I... am somewhat (just a tiiiiiiiiiiniest bit, really) uncomfortable with how we run this, but, again, they aren't human and they are ok with the way we do things - had we started to offer them all direct transportation to other places and basic payment to settle them down, more than 95% would still choose serving us, I'm sure.
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The thing with many of the creatures we make, specially our standbys like Leshy and Treants, is that many of them are both ludicrously superhuman, thanks to templates stacking on high base stats, and completely and utterly un-ambitious. If they didn't stay with us they'd just go to a forest or some other natural environment which suits them and spend their time there, looking after the plants.

We noticed and discussed this literally over a year and 8000 pages ago. I found it while I was looking for some kind of master list of the constructs we make, which does not seem to exist.
 
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Azel said:
That argument is rather disingenuous. As new creatures, they are by definition without a prior social structure, no matter where they go.

I can just as easily counter-caricate your "integration office" idea as brainwashing and indoctrination of a impressionable toddler.

You only have a point if you assume a priori that making a thinking being is Bad, Evil and Objectionable, and then light facts in the right light to support that notion.
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You could make that counter caricature. I would agree with you. I haven't given it very much a deep thought at the moment and could easily be missing stuff. But my basic argument ment is that they shouldn't make such a choice without a bit of real world experience and have time to consider the alternatives.
Duesal said:
If there was actually a problem they could easily just leave our service unmolested. Nobody would stop them. Despite claims to the contrary, there is in fact a choice presented to all of them.
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I never said there is a choice, its just not a good choice. I would appreciate you not trying to put words in my mouth.
Duesal said:
What are you talking about? If they stay in the Imperium, nothing stops them from using other Flesh Forged/Fungus Forged creatures and druids/rangers of the Old Gods as their social structure. Just because these hypothetical unhappy ones don't work for us doesn't mean they'll be denied access from the ones that do.

This feels more and more like you're inventing a problem, dude.
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I was thinking more the kobolds because that where the discussion began. The leshys and such from my understanding are just resleave spirits.
 
@Acolyte I might as well have a stab at this since it is something Lya considered IC, if one supposes that the natural state of sentient beings is total freedom of all constraints than yes making new sentients is evil, but then so is having children. After all those children are going to be socialized in a certain culture and often a religion before they are at the age to distinguish between such things themselves. In fact from that perspective making new sentients is less objectionable than having children since they are made with a full capacity to reason and can simply choose to go out in the world rather than swear to Viserys. The children even now being born to freed slaves who are being taught the glories of the Imperium are far more 'brainwashed' than a messenger raven.
 
Arent our Plant Creatures just Old God Nature spirits possessing a body? I mean all constructs are basically just amenable spirits being forged into something that suits them to do stuff suitable for them right?

I mean I remember that our Raven Constructs have wind spirits that like what they do and have a bit of curiosity to peep on stuff in their free time. And Fungus Forge Creatures are Nameless Nature Spirits moonlighting as whatever Construct we make for a bit.(A bit to a ageless spirit of a fundamental concept being however long the body lasts be it days or Eons).
 
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DragonParadox said:
  1. Not explicitly no, but as this is a spellcasting it requires a verbal and somatic component. Verbal components are performed using language and language requires sentience.
  2. You could yes, though it would take either finding a creature with that as a SLA and feeding it to the forge or research.
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Counterpoint Parrots, non-sapient animals can learn to repeat sounds they hear, holding a conversation require sapience, repeating a single sentence, can be taught to an animal as long as it has vocal chords, so if it's just the snake needing to speak the spell, we just need to give it vocal Chords, and have it taught to repeat the spell words.

Edit. And yes I checked Parrots are indeed non-sapient in D&D, they're 2INT animals, so they prove speaking don't require intelligence in D&D, so if that's the only reason an animal can't be a Sorceror creature, then an animal can be a sorceror creature.
 
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There's nothing wrong with creating sentient beings, and then offering to employ them, other than the usual run of the mill "should we really be playing god by creating artificial life-forms?" And the aforementioned power inbalance, but I think a couple people already pointed out that it's harder to argue that we're sending the equivalent of a toddler out into the wild when they are created with lifted knowledge implanted and most of them have the equivalent of an always loaded assault rifle strapped on with spell like abilities or immensely strong bodies, being hardly helpless if they were feeling particularly independent and enterprising.

Most of them stick around thinking "I'll see how good this offer really is, and maybe split later" but stick around when they realize their current set-up ain't too shabby.
 
tarrangar said:
Counterpoint Parrots, non-sapient animals can learn to repeat sounds they hear, holding a conversation require sapience, repeating a single sentence, can be taught to an animal as long as it has vocal chords, so if it's just the snake needing to speak the spell, we just need to give it vocal Chords, and have it taught to repeat the spell words.
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Shaping magic is about more than repeating the sounds or it would not take so long to train mages. Sorcery takes will and intent that an animal simply can't match, take a look at how Viserys describes using magic at the beginning of the quest. Fido the dog can't replicate that.
 
Crake said:
There's nothing wrong with creating sentient beings, and then offering to employ them, other than the usual run of the mill "should we really be playing god by creating artificial life-forms?" And the aforementioned power inbalance, but I think a couple people already pointed out that it's harder to argue that we're sending the equivalent of a toddler out into the wild when they are created with lifted knowledge implanted and most of them have the equivalent of an always loaded assault rifle strapped on with spell like abilities or immensely strong bodies, being hardly helpless if they were feeling particularly independent and enterprising.

Most of them stick around thinking "I'll see how good this offer really is, and maybe split later" but stick around when they realize their current set-up ain't too shabby.
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They have memory implants. That changes everything. I thought it was just the spirits memories.
 
Acolyte said:
I never said there is a choice, its just not a good choice. I would appreciate you not trying to put words in my mouth.
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Fine, let's draw directly from your quotes then.
Acolyte said:
Ofcourse what could be fairer then asking beings after they have been created to serve you. Its not like we hold all the power here and they would agree out of terror.
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Acolyte said:
Yeah but we don't give them any other real choice as well.

We offer to let them go out in a world they have never seen and have no experience with. Knowing that there is no one else like them. With no contacts.
They don't have a real choice. We are very much making them take the lesser of two evil choices.
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Acolyte said:
Ah they could go to the realm where slavery is widely prevalent and they still have no support. Its like sending a teen that hasn't seen anything or has no support to go live by themselves. Its hilarious that you consider that a good option.
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This entire time you've been claiming that the choices are so bad there may as well be no choice. You turning around and saying you never said they didn't have a choice is a bit of an about face.
Acolyte said:
I was thinking more the kobolds because that where the discussion began. The leshys and such from my understanding are just resleave spirits.
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The whole corpse recovery plan is way too dangerous for kobolds. It's basically throwing their lives away, and that is a crappy deal which I won't support. If they were offered that deal then they'd have every right to walk away and look for other work.
Acolyte said:
They have memory implants. That changes everything. I thought it was just the spirits memories.
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Not memory, just knowledge and lore. It's akin to dragons having access to ancestral lore without actually being their ancestors like Aboleths are.
 
DragonParadox said:
Shaping magic is about more than repeating the sounds or it would not take so long to train mages. Sorcery takes will and intent that an animal simply can't match, take a look at how Viserys describes using magic at the beginning of the quest. Fido the dog can't replicate that.
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OK in that case can you tell me the research cost, of giving them Hoard gullet as a SLA?

Considering it's a 1st level spell, it shouldn't be all that much right?
Acolyte said:
You could make that counter caricature. I would agree with you. I haven't given it very much a deep thought at the moment and could easily be missing stuff. But my basic argument ment is that they shouldn't make such a choice without a bit of real world experience and have time to consider the alternatives.
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They get that time, their choice to join us aren't binding, so they try working for us, and if they don't like that or see a better option, then they can switch to that option.
 
tarrangar said:
Counterpoint Parrots, non-sapient animals can learn to repeat sounds they hear, holding a conversation require sapience, repeating a single sentence, can be taught to an animal as long as it has vocal chords, so if it's just the snake needing to speak the spell, we just need to give it vocal Chords, and have it taught to repeat the spell words.

Edit. And yes I checked Parrots are indeed non-sapient in D&D, they're 2INT animals, so they prove speaking don't require intelligence in D&D, so if that's the only reason an animal can't be a Sorceror creature, then an animal can be a sorceror creature.
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It's not just a matter of making the appropriate sounds, dude. There is a certain amount of intrinsic understanding that is required to cast spells. There is no reasonable way to make a non-sentient being a spellcaster. That is the realm of instinctive spell-like abilities.

EDIT: Faceless'd so hard. Ah, the joys of having to work at work...
 
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egoo said:
Aww :(

|\__:corgi:
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Aww cheer up egoo. That just means Fido is magic for being Fido! No thinking about the magic involved!

tarrangar said:
Counterpoint Parrots, non-sapient animals can learn to repeat sounds they hear, holding a conversation require sapience, repeating a single sentence, can be taught to an animal as long as it has vocal chords, so if it's just the snake needing to speak the spell, we just need to give it vocal Chords, and have it taught to repeat the spell words.

Edit. And yes I checked Parrots are indeed non-sapient in D&D, they're 2INT animals, so they prove speaking don't require intelligence in D&D, so if that's the only reason an animal can't be a Sorceror creature, then an animal can be a sorceror creature.
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Cheer up tartangar. That just means it can be a creature. Something like a really cheap construct hybrid like Azel made should work fine. Just down scale it and mix it with yours to make a CR1 freak of mature to get the job done.
 
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Come to think of... if you were to use Viserys blood as the seed for the Kobolds, they would basically be his children. At least in the same sense as the Arcanums are Lyas.
 
@tarrangar, please just drop it already.

You aren't getting anywhere with this, the entire premise of the looter-creatures had been largely discredited, and trying to wring out some way to do it out of DP is just more annoying.

You are, again, long past the point you should have stopped pushing.
 
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@tarrangar, not meaning to spoiler here, but your plan rests on a whole lot of assumptions about the geopolitics in Elysium and the attitudes, values and desires of the locals.

It might be better if you drop this for now and revisit it when you actually have first-hand knowledge of the place.
 
egoo said:
@tarrangar, please just drop it already.

You aren't getting anywhere with this, the entire premise of the looters had been largely discredited, and trying to wring out some way to do it out of DP is just more annoying.

You are, again, long past the point you should have stopped pushing.
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I still like Azels dangerous loot carriers though. Pop an inverse Magic Circle Against Evil effect on that things mouth effecting everything in it and you've got a great containment unit.

Inquisition bases should have one or two each to help hold the dangerous stuff till we can get around to them.
 
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Abhishek M said:
I still like Azels dangerous loot carriers though. Pop an inverse Magic Circle Against Evil effect on that things mouth effecting everything in it and you've got a great containment unit.
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Those aren't loot carriers however, but people-carriers.

Quite different task there.
DragonParadox said:
On the other hand there are all sorts of hound-like beings that can cast spells from blink dogs, hound archons etc...
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Yay!
 
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