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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Neshuakadal said:
So you trust us to keep it a secret if the dwarfs ask us to keep it a secret but you don't trust us to be able to keep it a secret later down the road? Like can Mathilde only keep a secret if she is asked to? That doesn't seem like Mathilde to me.
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I expect at some point if we continue to meddle with the Dwarfs, for the origin of the Black Orcs to come up at some point and then we either have to pretend to be completly oblivious on the matter or reveal we learned but decided to keep it a secret not to hurt anyone's feelings.
 
torac said:
Yes, but they might recognize forming schisms (like the one that just happened) and then take advantage of the infighting, or even incite it by leading opposing groups to each other or something like that. That's just an example as an outside. I could not even begin to imagine all the possible scenarios where this information might help.
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They already know about the potential for schisms, we told them that part, the fact that the black orcs were made by Chaos dwarfs adds nothing to that.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Personally I would rather play the kind of Mathilde that does not jump into proverbial lava with a cry of: "It's in character!" on her lips as she burns to a crisp. :V
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A comparison which implies dwarves being extremely more unreasonable than they have been so far.

I would understand arguments for withholding data if her life was at stake. With Reputation 20, Dwarf-Friend, and being generally trusted by at least Belegar like very few humans could be, the worst that can happen is grumbling and asking in stern terms to not tell anyone - which we already did by not telling Council without talking to Belegar personally.

So I think my phrasing of "scared of being grumbled at" is way closer to the truth than "jumping into lava".
 
veekie said:
I beg to differ. Mathilde's experience with dwarfs so far suggests strongly that when information like this is offered to responsible leadership, what happens is they set upon a careful and deliberate plan to rip the offending party to shreds, over centuries if necessary.

In the case of Dwarf Chaos Cultists she's likely of the opinion that they SHOULD be ripped to shreds and sees no problem with it. Likewise she already understands it shouldn't be shared to the public, any more than finding chaos cultists in Stirland should be something shared to the council in general.

Mathilde had seen a lot of mature, reasonable if understandably very grumpy dwarfs. And Kragg has been goddamned exemplary in how he conducted himself.
He dislikes modern cannon, but they're in use and he just grumbles about their unreliability.
He dislikes Umgi magic, but he has conducted himself with reasonable courtesy and restraint, handling Mathilde's deeds with sour looks but recognizing she remains a credit to the team.
He hates the Greenskins, so instead of running out there and pasting them with his hammer in fury, he prepares, and stockpiles a massive array of runic weaponry for the day when he might see them DELIVERED.

From every indication, what she expects out of Belegar and Kragg when she tells them about the Dawi Zharr is:
-Plan for an eventual campaign against the Dawi Zharr, which will include scouting, mapping, determining forward bases, and overall a timescale of maybe 4-5 centuries.
-Prepare runes to fuck up heretical dwarf sorceror slavers
-Tell her to keep it secret. As she didn't tell the COUNCIL they can expect a certain degree of sense they would not normally expect of Umgi.
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I feel like this is a wildly optimistic take on Kragg who has not even spoken to her this entire trip. Even in the last update he speaks more to the air to say something Mathilde said wasn't impossible. It is far more likely he doesn't want to waste the energy and create a fuss with other dwarfs that for some reason like her. My take is that this could change very very quickly and I believe Mathilde knows that too. She has experience of such a relationship changing extremely rapidly with Max and his smiths. Best of friends on moment and then next won't talk to each other. She has likely read tomes about the history of human and dwarf interaction and such rapid changes from a single misstep. I feel like we are staring at that single misstep and thinking, "surely it can't go too badly."
 
Gul Damar said:
I expect at some point if we continue to meddle with the Dwarfs, for the origin of the Black Orcs to come up at some point and then we either have to pretend to be completly oblivious on the matter or reveal we learned but decided to keep it a secret not to hurt anyone's feelings.
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So what prevents us from acting completely oblivious? We have done it plenty of times. What would be so bad about acting completely oblivious?
 
ctulhuslp said:
A comparison which implies dwarves being extremely more unreasonable than they have been so far.

I would understand arguments for withholding data if her life was at stake. With Reputation 20, Dwarf-Friend, and being generally trusted by at least Belegar like very few humans could be, the worst that can happen is grumbling and asking in stern terms to not tell anyone - which we already did by not telling Council without talking to Belegar personally.

So I think my phrasing of "scared of being grumbled at" is way closer to the truth than "jumping into lava".
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No I'm not scared of being grumbled at, do you know what I am actually scared of but did not want to bring up before because I don't want to veer into supposition? That Kragg demands Mathilde be banished from the expedition Belagar defends her and then Kragg outright leaves, right after he was instrumental to a major victory thus tanking morale. That is admittedly a extreme case, but I genuinely thing it could happen.
 
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WorldSlayer said:
Better yet we get them to write it out, put our name first in the list of authors and call it a day. Most of prestige, none of the effort. It's good to be a Magister.
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This ia a great idea. Plus it might not hurt their feelings since we can always lie to them that we know far more and just sharing credit with our subordinates
 
Neshuakadal said:
I feel like this is a wildly optimistic take on Kragg
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Actually, what are you even fearing? What, in your opinion, is a likely response to Mathilde talking about this topic?

This question goes to everyone else, too: How do you think they will react?

I've seen a single example some dwarf deciding not to attack Teclis when he talked about that topic, but no context. If anyone knows more about that, I'd be happy to read an account of that as well.

DragonParadox said:
That Kragg demands Mathilde be banished from the expedition Belagar defends her and then Kragg outright leaves, right after he was instrumental to a major victory thus tanking morale.
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Okay. Why do you think that? Out of character or in character, why do you think that is a likely consequence? Where have you seen dwarves act like that?
 
DragonParadox said:
No I'm not scared of being grumbled at, do you know what I am actually scared of but did not ant to bring up before because I don't want to veer into supposition, that Kragg demands Mathilde be banished from the expedition Belagar defends her and then Kragg outright leaves, right after he was instrumental to a major victory thus tanking morale. That is admitedly a extreme case, but I genuinely thing it could happen.
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I think that's one hell of a shadowrun, honestly. Like, what reason would he have to do that? Us stumbling into knowing something he'd prefer us not to?
The closest point of reference we have so far is us knowing about ballistae several updates ago. Consider reaction:
BoneyM said:
"So, Ulthar," you begin. "What's this about a siege weapon in the armoury?"

He winces. "That's-" he begins, then considers. "The amount you've already done, I'll not shut you out. Don't go repeating this to your manling friends, mind."

"I swear," you say instantly. And truthfully, too. You might report whatever he says to your superiors in the Grey College, but they're not exactly your friends, are they?

"Well, before the Time of Woes was the War of Vengeance, and before the War of Vengeance we actually somehow got along with the pointy-eared buggers. If you believe the stories - and maybe you shouldn't, because there's many a Longbeard that considers history to be the ore one smelts and shapes - we were stupid enough to teach the bastards the secrets of torsion and tension so their sailors could defend their trade ships. What Kragg found in that armoury, and somehow prevented himself from smashing to pieces, appears to be a proof of concept. A bolt thrower that fires six lesser bolts between reloads." He shrugs, and drinks. "O'course, that could all be krut. Maybe some cheeky Engineer decided to tweak some noses by proving whatever Elgi could do, Dawi could do better. Maybe the stupid thing doesn't even work, which is why it was sealed up in the Armoury instead of fighting and dying with the rest of the Hold. Whatever it is, it's Durin's problem now."
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Uther is way more open minded than Kragg, so it's the comparison that only goes so far. But notice how the only thing he asks us - after freely disclosing the info and not us stumbling onto it! - is not to tell other humans.

I have seen zero indication Kragg would go above grumbling about stupid wizard bullshit.
 
[X] Remain silent.

[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija

[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Telling war stories
[X] Sparring

[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
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ctulhuslp said:
I think that's one hell of a shadowrun, honestly. Like, what reason would he have to do that? Us stumbling into knowing something he'd prefer us not to?
The closest point of reference we have so far is us knowing about ballistae several updates ago. Consider reaction:


Uther is way more open minded than Kragg, so it's the comparison that only goes so far. But notice how the only thing he asks us - after freely disclosing the info and not us stumbling onto it! - is not to tell other humans.

I have seen zero indication Kragg would go above grumbling about stupid wizard bullshit.
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Mentioning the most shameful secret of the dwarfish people to an arch-conservative who dislikes us, while also talking about being possessed by Mork is in no way comparable to talking about balistae with a ranger who just served alongside. Those are two ends of the spectrum in almost every way.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

Hm... I wonder if we'll get to ask Kragg what trying to go for the belt would have done? Mathilde would probably like an answer to that. One of the reasons she, and we, weren't so sure about going for the belt was... because it wasn't Dhar, and it wasn't precisely a spell. So us (and Mathilde in-universe) would get to learn what the belt does in such circumstances. I mean, asking "if something else weird like this happens, should I just go for the belt instead?" would be a nice-to-have answer to have!
 
What needs a citation is dwarfs reacting badly and irrationally to someone bringing them information about chaos dwarfs.

I consider it an extraordinary claim, which is so far based on nothing but people saying it is so. I'm not that well-read in WHF lore, so please tell me where there are examples of this happening. I'm not even worrying about in-character justifications for Mathilde acting like she has that information,. Any lore about this being a thing that happens would be nice. Any examples of dwarfs considering the mere mention of them an insult.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Mentioning the most shameful secret of the dwarfish people to an arch-conservative who dislikes us, while also talking about being possessed by Mork is in no way comparable to talking about balistae with a ranger who just serves alongside. Those are two ends of the spectrum in almost every way.
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Nah, they are quite close on the spectrum, other end of it would be something like "Teclis tries to elfsplain to Kragg how to be a proper dwarf" or whatnot.

Kragg dislikes wizards, not us personally. It's pretty impersonal.
And given that we did nothing wrong, this is not an answer to the question "why would he do it?". Like, this implies Kragg is an utter moron who would get rid of an asset which killed two Warbosses just because...because of why, precisely? Because due to stumbling into an Ork ritual we got an infodump of Deep Black Ork Lore, which touched on existence of Chaos Dwarfs?

edit: Do you think Kragg is an idiot? Because that's just about the only way he'd react with something worse than grumbling. Consider this: learning of Chaos Dwarfs was not our fault; we did due caution and did not reveal it to anyone bar Belegar and Kragg. Things that depended on us we did with a perfectly rational logic behind every step, and succeeded at what we wanted to do on every step.
He cannot blame us for the weirdness of Orc rituals causing infodump into our head, outside of one case and one case only: if he is stark raving mad and incapable of rational thought, nor of understanding our usefulness as an asset to the Expedition.
 
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torac said:
Actually, what are you even fearing? What, in your opinion, is a likely response to Mathilde talking about this topic?

This question goes to everyone else, too: How do you think they will react?

I've seen a single example some dwarf deciding not to attack Teclis when he talked about that topic, but no context. If anyone knows more about that, I'd be happy to read an account of that as well.


Okay. Why do you think that? Out of character or in character, why do you think that is a likely consequence? Where have you seen dwarves act like that?
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I fear they will react irrationally. Thus the fear is that I don't know what they will do but that whatever they do it will be extreme and based on shame and irrational. Nothing good can come from actions based on that.

Lets turn that question back on you though too. What do you hope to gain from this conversation? Why do you want to bring up such a wound to the dwarfs. Do you really believe that they don't know about Chaos dwarfs? I see people talk about long term strategic gains for letting the dwarfs know about black orcs but those seem wishful at best. If the only gains to be made here are long term then why do we have to breach the conversation. Let the grey order know and let the grey order figure out if long term strategic gains could be made and how to approach it.

I just don't see any reason to bring up the wound and so I don't see why we would.
 
[X] Tell Belegar.
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija
[X] Join the hunting with Ruprecht Wulfhart
[X] Cook with Karak Izor
[X] Cook with Clan Angrund
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Durin
[X] Telling war stories
[X] Gambling
[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Play with a giant wolf
[X] Play with a demigryph
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Help move the Karag Nar hoard
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
torac said:
What needs a citation is dwarfs reacting badly and irrationally to someone bringing them information about chaos dwarfs.

I consider it an extraordinary claim, which is so far based on nothing but people saying it is so. I'm not that well-read in WHF lore, so please tell me where there are examples of this happening. I'm not even worrying about in-character justifications for Mathilde acting like she has that information,. Any lore about this being a thing that happens would be nice. Any examples of them considering the mere mention of them an insult.
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Gortek nearly killing Teclis has been brought up repeatedly. And this is under circumstances where the Loremaster would have ben damn useful, Gortek and felix novles are not known for their peaceful fun-loving ambiance.
 
veekie said:
I beg to differ. Mathilde's experience with dwarfs so far suggests strongly that when information like this is offered to responsible leadership, what happens is they set upon a careful and deliberate plan to rip the offending party to shreds, over centuries if necessary.

In the case of Dwarf Chaos Cultists she's likely of the opinion that they SHOULD be ripped to shreds and sees no problem with it. Likewise she already understands it shouldn't be shared to the public, any more than finding chaos cultists in Stirland should be something shared to the council in general.

Mathilde had seen a lot of mature, reasonable if understandably very grumpy dwarfs. And Kragg has been goddamned exemplary in how he conducted himself.
He dislikes modern cannon, but they're in use and he just grumbles about their unreliability.
He dislikes Umgi magic, but he has conducted himself with reasonable courtesy and restraint, handling Mathilde's deeds with sour looks but recognizing she remains a credit to the team.
He hates the Greenskins, so instead of running out there and pasting them with his hammer in fury, he prepares, and stockpiles a massive array of runic weaponry for the day when he might see them DELIVERED.

From every indication, what she expects out of Belegar and Kragg when she tells them about the Dawi Zharr is:
-Plan for an eventual campaign against the Dawi Zharr, which will include scouting, mapping, determining forward bases, and overall a timescale of maybe 4-5 centuries.
-Prepare runes to fuck up heretical dwarf sorceror slavers
-Tell her to keep it secret. As she didn't tell the COUNCIL they can expect a certain degree of sense they would not normally expect of Umgi.
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True. Change my vote.
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
 
DragonParadox said:
You realize that this is utterly impractical yes? No one is sending an army into the Dark Lands to fight Chaos Dwarfs, and if anyone does it's suicide. There are no supply lines and you have to fight your way through hostile greenskins every step of the way. On to of that the wastes are right next door.
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Impractical but not impossible if you have a campaign plan for a few thousand years. Which is what Mathilde WOULD expect of dwarfs, but since she doesn't know where the Dawi Zharr are she wouldn't expect such a long timescale either.
 
veekie said:
Impractical but not impossible if you have a campaign plan for a few thousand years. Which is what Mathilde WOULD expect of dwarfs, but since she doesn't know where the Dawi Zharr are she wouldn't expect such a long timescale either.
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No one including the dwarfs has a campaign plan for a few thousand years, a few thousand years ago for instance the dwarfs were struggling to just survive the Time of Woe. We talk about dwarfs like they are they are some unstoppable Juggernaut when this campaign right here is the most notable dwarfish reconquest in centuries.
 
Neshuakadal said:
I fear they will react irrationally.
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But WHY? Why do you think they will react irrationally to this? What is the source of your believe that will lose their mind and reason here? Even if they dislike the topic, or hate it, whatever reason do you have for thinking they will just act completely irrationally?

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This is not a thing you can turn back on me. You are making an assertion. There needs to be a reason for that assertion that is not circular. I can see them seeing it as their biggest shame, but that does not mean they immediately lose their higher thought processes over it.

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To humour you: I don't care if they know about chaos dwarfs or even if they already know that CDs created black orcs. She was sent there to do things, then she reported on what was important. I see this on the same level as reporting that she killed the orc shaman, or that she destroyed an idol. Mathilde did not need a special reason to tell them she destroyed the idol. Why would she need a special reason for the even bigger thing she did?

Telling them is not an extraordinary event or decision. Specifically holding back the information is out of the ordinary.
 
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