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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Alliterate said:
I like this. @BoneyM am I right in picking up that this is a term of real respect, particularly coming from a sitting King in his power?
A plain, unvarnished title of Master, not qualified as Mhornokri or as mastery any of the other weird shoddy manling arts or pale imitations of good Dawi craft.
Just Master, as he would address a respected Dawi Master Engineer.
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To Dwarves, Apprentice-Journeyman-Master is one of the cornerstones of their society, so Master carries real weight to them. Normally, Dwarves would not grant a human's Mastery equivalence to a Dwarvern Mastery until the person had proven themselves, but Dwarves have no equivalent to wizards so they get a pass - but they would almost always specify it as them being a Master Wizard or a Zhufokrul or a Mhornokrul or similar. Technically, the title here is your due, but that he is granting it here instead of the full job description is an expression of trust - it implies that others do not need to be warned of you, and that your Mastery is at the level of Dwarven mastery, rather than mere human mastery.

Ok: cunning or skillful.
-i: Person/race/profession
-ul: Art/master of
Okri: Crafter
Okrul: Master Crafter

Zhuf: Torrent/waterfall/rapids
Zhufokri: Wizard, literally 'torrent crafter'
Zhufokrul: Master Wizard
Zhufi: Pejorative for wizard - implies magic defines them, rather than being under their control.

Mhornokri: Grey Wizard, literally 'shadow crafter'
Mhornokrul: Grey Magister.
Gorzhufokri: Amber Wizard, literally 'beast torrent crafter'. 'Zhuf' is included because 'Gorokri' already has the meaning of 'animal trainer'.
 
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Karugus said:
This is fear mongering of the highest order.

Kragg knew something of the circumstance all this shit went down under and acknowledged that Mork had a direct hand in things because this was essentially a super heretical and blasphemous act being committed in a Greenskin holy place. The circumstances are largely explicable and knowable. Worst case- fuck up the heretical idol conventionally rather than sending a wizard to do it now that they know better.

And while yes, it puppeted Mathilde, Mathilde also demonstrates what can happen when a god wrongly lays it's fingers on an Imperial Magister's soul. The fact that Mathilde not only handled said possession
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The fact that something happens once demonstrates that it's possible. There is no evidence any no way of proving that this is the only situation in which this is happening. Gods can get pissed off and motivated to intervene in all sorts of things. The Horned Rat probably gets pissed off about the dwarves continued existence every day. The circumstances are not explicable and not knowable because all we now know is that something is possible. That's the only thing that a sample size of one can demonstrate. It can give no other information on the limits of the phenomena.

Even if the risk of them taking it this way is small, which we've no reason to believe, as there's no benefit to telling them, only other potential costs, such as exacerbating their grudge death spiral, there's simply no good justification for this.
 
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Karugus said:
This is fear mongering of the highest order.
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No, fear-mongering is saying that we'll be held accountable if they learn we knew of this but didn't bring it up because we rightfully knew it had no relevance to the campaign and would help in no way save by adding extra concerns.

And if you say it's good for them to be able to levee more grudges, that's wrong. Grudges keep them from moving forward, from focusing and not getting tunnel-vision, causing them to decline.
 
If not sharing relevant information is a core aspect of being a Grey Wizard or a follower of Ranald, then we need to change that aspect. Keeping secrets for secrecy's sake is pretty much pointless, and both the gods of the Greenskins and Chaos are most certainly hostis humani generis. Opsec is all well and good, but prioritizing it over the missions it is supposed to protect is counter productive.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
The possible gains of telling them are far outweighed by the possible losses.

Telling them that we, and by extension other wizards, can be used as conduits and puppets of gods of hated enemies is not good in any way.
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On Greenskin hallowed ground when they're preparing a never before seen ritual to split the twin gods in twain. People act like this is going to be reoccuring issue- anyone with half an understanding of these, like say one of the most powerful Runepriests in the world- is going to see the massive narrative confluence that allowed for all this to occur for what is.
 
Reynal said:
If not sharing relevant information is a core aspect of being a Grey Wizard or a follower of Ranald, then we need to change that aspect. Keeping secrets for secrecy's sake is pretty much pointless, and both the gods of the Greenskins and Chaos are most certainly hostis humani generis. Opsec is all well and good, but prioritizing it over the missions it is supposed to protect is counter productive.
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This has no relevance to the mission. If anything, this knowledge hurts the mission by making Kragg and Belegar have other concerns on their mind when the most important thing is the liberation of Karak Eight Peaks. And no one can get fixated like a Dwarf.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
[X] Tell Belegar.

I think we should tell both, but Belegar at least would be fine.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

Kragg seems to have ideas. Better to clue him in. He might reach conclusions or have ideas that Mathilde lacks the knowledge to infer. Some people expect Kragg to go crazy about "orcish corruption" or something. I don't. He isn't stupid. It something that was likely never heard off, so its good info. He is also in front of her, and ought to be able to get a good reading of her. He was able to feel the Waagh build-up in both the Citadel and Karag Nar. If there was any remnant inside Mathilde's soul, he should be able to notice it. On the surface she looks perfectly fine, and we know ooc that she's fine inside as well, so nothing to worry.

I'm not worried about Ranald. They both come from cultures that have no contact with Ranald, so they shouldn't have any preestablished bias or stigma. Besides, Mathilde already proved herself as a stout ally, and even earned the title Dawongr - Dwarf-friend. If Mathilde trusts him, then he ought to be good enough for them. Besides, he messed up one of the Grobi gods real good. That alone will earn Ranald enough goodwill.

I think it is only prudent to mention the Chaos Dwarves. Mathilde never heard of them, so it is a reasonable assumption to make wether Karak Anzor even knows of their existence. As such, it is only reasonable to inform her allies about a possible enemy, especially since that enemy already unleashed a massive menace in the form of the Black Orcs. This could lead to an IC understanding of how heavy of a sore spot this is, and why she should not mention this to anybody - even to the Grey Order, which is something she would naturally do otherwise.

Bottom line is, Belegar already extends a massive amount of trust to Mathilde. I think it is only fair to show that the trust goes both ways, by giving him the full story, and Kragg is better prepared to make use of the knowledge, or declared it secret.

[X] Join the hunting with Ruprecht Wulfhart
[X] Cook with Karak Izor
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki

[X] Telling war stories
[X] Put on a magic display (Petty and Lesser only)
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
 
[X] Remain silent.

[X] Join the hunting with Codrin
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus

[X] Telling war stories
[X] Gambling
[X] Sparring

[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 

Have you considered that maybe he doesn't but pretending he does is how he fishes for more information by default?

Like, Kragg isn't going to be polite by default, he doesn't need to. If he honestly suspected more than we gave him, he wouldn't have gone "Yeah, sounds legit"
 
Karugus said:
On Greenskin hallowed ground when they're preparing a never before seen ritual to split the twin gods in twain. People act like this is going to be reoccuring issue- anyone with half an understanding of these, like say one of the most powerful Runepriests in the world- is going to see the massive narrative confluence that allowed for all this to occur for what is.
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And? That doesn't mean he's going to be logical. Our MAP helped clear things up, he hated it because. We did great things for the Dawi, he all but threw the belt at us to get it over with simply because of wanting to rid the favor owed.

Ultra ANYTHING do not act rationally when those phobias get poked.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
We're not manipulating them though.
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
If anything, this knowledge hurts the mission by making Kragg and Belegar have other concerns on their mind when the most important thing is the liberation of Karak Eight Peaks. And no one can get fixated like a Dwarf.
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Sounds like you're trying to manipulate them to me, keeping information from them so they do what you think is best (because we obviously know best and they can't be trusted to make informed decisions). However you might think friends should act like to each other, that is not how friends should act like to each other.
 
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Reynal said:
If not sharing relevant information is a core aspect of being a Grey Wizard or a follower of Ranald, then we need to change that aspect. Keeping secrets for secrecy's sake is pretty much pointless, and both the gods of the Greenskins and Chaos are most certainly hostis humani generis. Opsec is all well and good, but prioritizing it over the missions it is supposed to protect is counter productive.
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This isn't relevant information, and it's not keeping secrets for secrets sake, but because if they respond to the information in a negative but perfectly rational, indeed sensible way, it would be a catastrophe on both a personal and geopolitical stage.

Sharing this might not only compromise this mission, but compromise dwarven relations with all wizards, with the Empire itself, and the position of wizards within the Empire. It's that big a deal, as neither the dwarves nor anyone else has any way at all of verifying that what happened to Mathilde was a one off, rather than a weakness to possession shared by every Magister that can be triggered in an unknown number of potential scenarios.

Remember how incredibly risk averse dwarves are. Even radical runelords personally test runes they've invented for centuries before making more for other people to use, to avoid potential problems with their work affecting other people.
 
Alectai said:
Have you considered that maybe he doesn't but pretending he does is how he fishes for more information by default?

Like, Kragg isn't going to be polite by default, he doesn't need to. If he honestly suspected more than we gave him, he wouldn't have gone "Yeah, sounds legit"
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An excellent point. He's only ever spoken when it's relevant or he's being spoken to (and one of those times he gave a rant).
 
Alratan said:
The fact that something happens once demonstrates that it's possible. There is no evidence any no way of proving that this is the only situation in which this is happening. Gods can get pissed off and motivated to intervene in all sorts of things. The Horned Rat probably gets pissed off about the dwarves continued existence every day. The circumstances are not explicable and not knowable because all we now know is that something is possible. That's the only thing that a sample size of one can demonstrate. It can give no other information on the limits of the phenomena.

Even if the risk of them taking it this way is small, which we've no reason to believe, as there's no benefit to telling them, only other potential costs, such as exacerbating their grudge death spiral, there's simply no good justification for this.
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With all due respect, this argument is kind of absurd. This argument 'Wizards can get possessed by evil gods/malevolent entities, therefore they can NEVER BE TRUSTED' would also prevent allying with literally any humans -- hell, the warhammer fantasy wiki has a whole page on involuntary possession (Possession). If we take that (it cites tome of corruption, though I don't have the book), any random joe with a slightly stronger than average attunement to the winds (levels that are functionally incapable of being detected) can get possessed by demons with little to no warning.
As we can see, dwarves are happy to ally with tens of thousands of humans, many of whom are just adventurers (and very few of whom had background checks). We're not going to discredit the colleges or the empire with this information. The real danger is to Mathilde.
 
Strange9 said:
With all due respect, this argument is kind of absurd. This argument 'Wizards can get possessed by evil gods/malevolent entities, therefore they can NEVER BE TRUSTED' would also prevent allying with literally any humans -- hell, the warhammer fantasy wiki has a whole page on involuntary possession (Possession). If we take that (it cites tome of corruption, though I don't have the book), any random joe with a slightly stronger than average attunement to the winds (levels that are functionally incapable of being detected) can get possessed by demons with little to no warning.
As we can see, dwarves are happy to ally with tens of thousands of humans, many of whom are just adventurers (and very few of whom had background checks). We're not going to discredit the colleges or the empire with this information. The real danger is to Mathilde.
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Possessed by a malevolent god is a very different order of magnitude of a problem.
 
Reynal said:
If not sharing relevant information is a core aspect of being a Grey Wizard or a follower of Ranald, then we need to change that aspect. Keeping secrets for secrecy's sake is pretty much pointless, and both the gods of the Greenskins and Chaos are most certainly hostis humani generis. Opsec is all well and good, but prioritizing it over the missions it is supposed to protect is counter productive.
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The concept of Need to Know is a core aspect of being a Grey Wizard. I don't think these particular dwarves (not "dawi" as a whole; these two guys in particular) have an actual need to know anything they haven't already been told.

And if they don't need to know, they don't get to know as a default.

That is somewhat different from your phrasing of "sharing relevant information" of course... but not entirely. It's not enough that information be "relevant". Lots of things could be relevant. There must also be a need to know.
 
Andres110 said:
Sounds like you're trying to manipulate them to me, keeping information from them so they do what you think is best (because we obviously know best and they can't be trusted to make informed decisions). However you might think friends should act like to each other, that is not how friends should act like to each other.
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If my friends knew something that was tangentially relevant, but I could do absolutely nothing about, and it would only worry me due to fixating on it (and I have that problem) when I have very damn big problems right in front of me, I'd appreciate it if they didn't tell me and left me in peace.
 
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[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus

[X] Gambling
[X] Telling war stories
[X] Target shooting

[X] Yes to Shenanigans

I sincerely hope we don't get drunk
 
Yeah, like, we already told more than was really safe, adding more on top of that is...

Like, what's it even going to accomplish? We know Dwarfs, it doesn't tell them anything they can take action on, and just gives them one more grudge that they can't avenge to carry.

It's literal cruelty. For all that we get on reasonably well with them, they don't have the same mindset. Them knowing "The fucking Dawi-Zharr are behind the Black Orcs" doesn't magically give them the ability to project power across the Dark Lands to fight a superpower, it just gives them one more super grudge they can't avenge when they've got too many as it is.

And that's the only strategically relevant thing we can tell them in a private discussion, period.

There's literally no gain to saying more than this, and a hell of a lot to lose.
 
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