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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
Phoenixes lay eggs when they choose to, when they feel they can feel they have the time to instruct and help a young phoenix phoenix grow. If any of them feel they would be better served on the Plane of Fire than the material plane they will say so and go back, it's not like you are compelling them to stay.
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I know that. But it was considered before than too many Phoenixes might now want to accept our offer if they have somewhere on the Plane of Fire they feel they would be more needed. I'm proposing we market the Imperium as nice place to raise kids. Down to a nice fire aligned hatchery demiplane and tons of plucky kids for their children to grow around.

If some of those baby Phoenixes and kids get along enough to become Phoenix touched Mage and familiar? That's just another plus.
 
Abhishek M said:
I know that. But it was considered before than too many Phoenixes might now want to accept our offer if they have somewhere on the Plane of Fire they feel they would be more needed. I'm proposing we market the Imperium as nice place to raise kids. Down to a nice fire aligned hatchery demiplane and tons of plucky kids for their children to grow around.

If some of those baby Phoenixes and kids get along enough to become Phoenix touched Mage and familiar? That's just another plus.
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Sure you guys could do that.
 
Abhishek M said:
I know that. But it was considered before than too many Phoenixes might now want to accept our offer if they have somewhere on the Plane of Fire they feel they would be more needed. I'm proposing we market the Imperium as nice place to raise kids. Down to a nice fire aligned hatchery demiplane and tons of plucky kids for their children to grow around.

If some of those baby Phoenixes and kids get along enough to become Phoenix touched Mage and familiar? That's just another plus.
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We're having them run orphanages at the moment...

Gosh, how long ago WAS that? Jeeze.
 
zxzx24 said:
We're having them run orphanages at the moment...

Gosh, how long ago WAS that? Jeeze.
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Heh I know. But egoo said somewhere we are likely to summon 200 a month if we dont have any other summoning targets. At those numbers we might as well put a Phoenix Family living around and working in every Orphanage, School, Free Clinic, Nursery and Daycare on the continent.
 
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Crazyone47 said:
Yeah but there must be some kind of limit otherwise life just seems kind of endless and hedonistic.\
Some kind of soul rot as their souls are brought back bodies eventually breaking down. some manner in which death even becomes matter of fact for a god.
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Until the planes are fixed, staying alive has its merits ...
 
[X] Duesal

I really want this fey for a simple reason, he's not insufferable and did not trigger my purging desires the moment he opened his mouth like most of his kind do.
Seems like a nice lawful gentleman.
 
MTB said:
Until the planes are fixed, staying alive has its merits ...
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The thing is though. Nothing Immortal in dnd actually stays wholly...well themselves. From gods to outsiders to lichs. Even elves only live to be 400 on average. To spirits to even souls in afterlives. In the end they all become some concept bound think shaped after what their free souls used to be like. Souls just arent as immortal in the way we usually think of them in the setting. Sure your soul or something like it will always be there unless it is destroyed or used up.

Heck take even the reincarnation spell. A NPC gets 5 levels on average through their lives. XP is literally soul stuff. Reincarnation takes a level. In 5 reincarnations they have used up the equivalent of how much soulstuff they originally had after a full human life. You telling me that has no effect? Burning a fifth of your soul to be young again and again and again and again and again.
 
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Abhishek M said:
The thing is though. Nothing Immortal in dnd actually stays wholly...well themselves. From gods to outsiders to lichs. Even elves only live to be 400 on average. To spirits to even souls in afterlives. In the end they all become some concept bound think shaped after what their free souls used to be like. Souls just arent as immortal in the way we usually think of them in the setting. Sure your soul or something like it will always be there unless it is destroyed or used up.

Heck take even the reincarnation spell. A NPC gets 5 levels on average through their lives. XP is literally soul stuff. Reincarnation takes a level. In 5 reincarnations they have used up the equivalent of how much soulstuff they originally had after a full human life. You telling me that has no effect? Burning a fifth of your soul to be young again and again and again and again and again.
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First of all, Outsiders are very person-like in ASWAH, arguably too person-like but there you go.

Second, Reincarnation burns up one of the levels you got in your life, and gives you a whole new life to gain levels in, so even your hypothetical NPC is likely to recover what they lost. Because XP drain, caused by any of the many sources of it, is recoverable.
 
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065tdsa said:
First of all, Outsiders are very person-like in ASWAH, arguably too person-like but there you go.

Second, Reincarnation burns up one of the levels you got in your life, and gives you a whole new life to gain levels in, so even your hypothetical NPC is likely to recover what they lost. Because XP drain, caused by any of the many sources of it, is recoverable.
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That's the think. Outsiders are person like but they arent exactly normal are they? Beings intrinsically linked to their concepts. For whomever changing their minds is literally changing their being. And you can get levels sure but every level is literal soul stuff. Level drain 0 is soul death. A lvl4 reincarnating loses a fifth of it. That's supposed to have no repercussions on cyclical use? Is their minds supposed to stay the same never forgetting any of their life while a fifth of their very being is used up every time they redo it?
 
Abhishek M said:
The thing is though. Nothing Immortal in dnd actually stays wholly...well themselves. From gods to outsiders to lichs. Even elves only live to be 400 on average. To spirits to even souls in afterlives. Souls just arent as immortal in the way we usually think of them in the setting. Sure your soul or something like it will always be there unless it is destroyed or used up.

Heck take even the reincarnation spell. A NPC gets 5 levels on average through their lives. XP is literally soul stuff. Reincarnation takes a level. In 5 reincarnations they have used up the equivalent of how much soulstuff they originally had after a full human life. You telling me that has no effect? Burning a fifth of your soul to be young again and again and again and again and again.
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You're kind of just injecting this into the setting though. There's not any indication this is a problem. Half a dozen different classes have a mechanism for becoming an immortal with little in the way of personal downsides. Most of them involve lots of magical power, but still. Additionally, plenty of flat out unaging things exist - including the genie we regularly deal with. They don't have the same mindset as a mortal, but they still operate on our scale, and aren't nearly as alien as say the fey.

More to the point, your original assertion about life needing to end to have meaning is a value judgment. It seems to be the basis of your belief such a mechanic should come into play.

I don't happen to believe that death is any sort of gift, or that life would eventually become so unbearable that death would be the only way out. Sure, specific life styles could leave someone burned out, but life always allows for some sort of change. I believe that the downsides of immortality get played up as a societal scale sour grapes moment to make us feel better about dying.

I'm not saying either of our personal beliefs is the obviously correct philosophical position, but the idea you're espousing is not a universally recognized truth. It's certainly worth debating and exploring through the viewpoint of an immortal, but not just baking another value judgment into the universe to enforce one of them.

Edit: removed extra word.
 
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Abhishek M said:
The thing is though. Nothing Immortal in dnd actually stays wholly...well themselves. From gods to outsiders to lichs. Even elves only live to be 400 on average. To spirits to even souls in afterlives. In the end they all become some concept bound think shaped after what their free souls used to be like. Souls just arent as immortal in the way we usually think of them in the setting. Sure your soul or something like it will always be there unless it is destroyed or used up.

Heck take even the reincarnation spell. A NPC gets 5 levels on average through their lives. XP is literally soul stuff. Reincarnation takes a level. In 5 reincarnations they have used up the equivalent of how much soulstuff they originally had after a full human life. You telling me that has no effect? Burning a fifth of your soul to be young again and again and again and again and again.
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Nice post, but sadly wrong.

D&D has a whole bunch of sentient beings (with souls and afterlives and all) who naturally live forever. Elan, Warforged, various Awakened stuff, body-hopping casters, high-level Necromancer wizards who have any of the multiple spells that indefinitely extend your life without making you undead, an outsider or a concept...

And any mortal can become an Elan, too. It just takes a ritual that you can straight-up buy. Being an Elan doesn't warp your mind or anything either, and it barely touches your body apart from giving you 2 power points and letting you ignore time somehow.
 
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Abhishek M said:
That's the think. Outsiders are person like but they arent exactly normal are they? Beings intrinsically linked to their concepts. For whomever changing their minds is literally changing their being. And you can get levels sure but every level is literal soul stuff. Level drain 0 is soul death. A lvl4 reincarnating loses a fifth of it. That's supposed to have no repercussions on cyclical use? Is their minds supposed to stay the same never forgetting any of their life while a fifth of their very being is used up every time they redo it?
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This is getting close to fear-mongering.

With reincarnation taking a level, the person in question has another life to get more levels. Whatever is taken away will in time be mended.

Will some memories leave? Yes. But not nearly as much as you're suggesting.
 
Abhishek M said:
That's the think. Outsiders are person like but they arent exactly normal are they? Beings intrinsically linked to their concepts. For whomever changing their minds is literally changing their being. And you can get levels sure but every level is literal soul stuff. Level drain 0 is soul death. A lvl4 reincarnating loses a fifth of it. That's supposed to have no repercussions on cyclical use? Is their minds supposed to stay the same never forgetting any of their life while a fifth of their very being is used up every time they redo it?
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It will probably have some effect, though there's no way to know what until repeated reincarnation actually happens.

Do you guys want an update next or an interlude?
 
OK, then let's see.

Vote count
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 17, 2019 at 12:32 PM, finished with 45 posts and 8 votes.
  • [X] Hello New Minion
    -[X] We want the Hooded Lord as our vassal to rule the Goblin Market in our name
    -[X] What we ask is that he heed our laws and follow all the other rules of being a vassal and a citizen, and should he come into the possession of secrets that are of interest to the Imperium (the movement of enemies, and nefarious plots, etc) he then pass it on to the Inquisition or directly to us depending on the severity.
    --[X] We have no problem with his current form of taxation (a small cut of every bargain in the Goblin Market), it's just that our taxation would be him passing along vital intel when it comes into his hands.
    --[X] We also want to make it so that it's not possible for mortals to accidentally wander into the Goblin Market, that they be guided back to Lys should they wish to leave, and that there be at least some regulations on unfair bargains from some of the Fey we encountered in our investigations. Nothing too stringent, those bargains will still be possible, but they must be informed decisions on the part of the mortals.
    -[X] What we offer is our aid should he ever need it, equipment for himself and his enforcers from our artificers, full legitimacy as a Lord under us, freedom to traverse the Imperium as a citizen and partake in the markets of Sorcerer's Deep and the Spheres beyond, etc.
    --[X] This includes a Calligraphy Wyrm, a Whispering Brazier, etc, everything the lords of the Imperium have.
    -[X] Further, ask if there is anything in particular he wants. If it's not too much it can probably be granted.
    -[X] As a side note, to help sweeten the deal, inform him that the Nameless Fey that has so troubled him has been dealt with. //OOC: Illustrates the use of having the Dragon King at your back.
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Honestly I'm not of the position death is meaningful or anything. I'm just saying with what we know about XP and soul mechanics the way reincarnate seems to work seems like the sort of thing would give rise to some soulless husk monster or something abused longterm. There are classes dedicated to extending life, spells and rituals too. Usually involves a large shift in the person.

Reincarnate on the other hand seems to be a reach around to immortality. Cant ressurenct from natural death. That's ok just kill yourself. Being reincarnated is random. Just make it targeted. Can make younger body but mind stays the same. No issues no siree. A fourth level spell solution for eternal youth for the average person with the cash to burn. Just pay a fee, kill yourself and be prepared to lose a piece of yourself everytime. What could go wrong.

Just saying if I saw this in a movie or a dnd campaign I'd prepare a couple fire spells before meeting the people.
 
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Abhishek M said:
Honestly I'm not of the position death is meaningful or anything. I'm just saying with what we know about XP and soul mechanics the way reincarnate seems to work seems like the sort of thing would give rise to some soulless husk monster or something abused longterm. There are classes dedicated to extending life, spells and rituals too. Usually involves a large shift in the person.

Reincarnate on the other hand seems to be a reach around to immortality. Cant ressurenct from natural death. That's ok just kill yourself. Being reincarnated is random. Just make it targeted. Can make younger body but mind stays the same. No issues job siree. A fourth level spell solution for eternal youth for the average person with the cash to burn. Just pay a fee, kill yourself and be prepared to lose a piece of yourself everytime. What could go wrong.

Just saying if I saw this in a movie or a dnd campaign I'd prepare a couple fire spells before meeting the people.
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Well, we do know from personal experience that the soul fully regenerates from level-loss.
Remember when Viserys sold his shadow?
That was basically the same.
 
Abhishek M said:
Honestly I'm not of the position death is meaningful or anything. I'm just saying with what we know about XP and soul mechanics the way reincarnate seems to work seems like the sort of thing would give rise to some soulless husk monster or something abused longterm. There are classes dedicated to extending life, spells and rituals too. Usually involves a large shift in the person.

Reincarnate on the other hand seems to be a reach around to immortality. Cant ressurenct from natural death. That's ok just kill yourself. Being reincarnated is random. Just make it targeted. Can make younger body but mind stays the same. No issues job siree. A fourth level spell solution for eternal youth for the average person with the cash to burn. Just pay a fee, kill yourself and be prepared to lose a piece of yourself everytime. What could go wrong.

Just saying if I saw this in a movie or a dnd campaign I'd prepare a couple fire spells before meeting the people.
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Making it targeted costs us a 7th-level spell, AFAIK.
But yes, Reincarnate genuinely is that stupid. Its basic D&D rules, and always has been.
 
Abhishek M said:
Honestly I'm not of the position death is meaningful or anything. I'm just saying with what we know about XP and soul mechanics the way reincarnate seems to work seems like the sort of thing would give rise to some soulless husk monster or something abused longterm. There are classes dedicated to extending life, spells and rituals too. Usually involves a large shift in the person.

Reincarnate on the other hand seems to be a reach around to immortality. Cant ressurenct from natural death. That's ok just kill yourself. Being reincarnated is random. Just make it targeted. Can make younger body but mind stays the same. No issues no siree. A fourth level spell solution for eternal youth for the average person with the cash to burn. Just pay a fee, kill yourself and be prepared to lose a piece of yourself everytime. What could go wrong.

Just saying if I saw this in a movie or a dnd campaign I'd prepare a couple fire spells before meeting the people.
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Your first post on this topic outright suggested adding a mechanic that would cause these effects because you think they should be a thing. Nothing in this setting implies stuff like that. The presumption that something must degrade and the soul isn't just uniquely perpetual and can handle it is based on rules that don't apply - or need to apply - here.

You're also drawing on other media as the basis for part of your concern, which doesn't seem like a valid argument to me. It's like assuming anyone throwing lightning bolts is a Sith.

... is this the mythical "salt" I've heard about? :V
 
I'm not sure the current deal will work, he made it clear he is no Lord but more of an administrator. But let's see what happens.
We had a damn sweeter pot and a better leash, we should have offered access to select cities based on the Governor's preference and in turn get more power over contracts, every mortal could have taken a contract made on bad faith to a judge (we have those right? If not an Inquisition office) and have it reviewed, if it found to be against realm policy it would be considered null and void.
 
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