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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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To be clear : I am against planned obsolescence IRL.

And glad to hear that increasing market magnitude will be negating this issue in the short term !
In the long term we can just shift our economy, and voilà !
 
Goldfish said:
I don't like that last part too much. It seems a bit too similar to "traveling magic salesman" to me. And a bit too close to the kind of temptation I would expect a less subtle Devil to attempt on a potential mark.

Maybe instead we could pose a hypothetical problem, such as one having a secret lover who would be frowned upon by others; not only could magic discover such, but it can also be used to hide this from the world at large, perhaps even make it possible to continue the relationship more easily?
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[X] Goldfish

Good point.
 
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Goldfish said:
Maybe instead we could pose a hypothetical problem, such as one having a secret lover who would be frowned upon by others; not only could magic discover such, but it can also be used to hide this from the world at large, perhaps even make it possible to continue the relationship more easily?
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Might as well throw an envelope full of compromising photos on the table.
 
DragonParadox said:
Spoiler: Veiled Assassin
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Second spoiler is mis-titled.

I liked this chapter a lot, it's good to see that we have effectively altered the cost benefit analysis, the rest will do its own work.

It's annoying but anticipated that they'd be after our communications, I'm assuming to do something to the network rather than just preventing a message home as Leto could've been a TP messenger when it fled.

Though I question why the Dryad ship can't just seal herself completely against regular water, makes sense these things can break through but it sounded like the crew was already dealing with mundane water. Is that the case?
 
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Dealing with magitech : masterpost​

I'll try to keep this updated with ideas, policies, etc. Please suggest and criticize as needed !

  • Wide-scale magitech risks causing an enormous economic crisis. IRL, such enormous changes in the structure of production were either helped and guided along by government efforts (left-wing or right-wing governments both intervened in their own way in such situations), or they caused riots, destitution and/or wars. Therefore, either we do nothing and fight to preserve the status quo (tariffs, bans, price controls...) or we go full magitech and try to help the economy transition into its new paradigm as seamlessly as possible. I personally prefer going full magitech.
    • I will be trying to keep this "nonpolitical" (ie, centrist and easily agreed upon).
    • DP has vetoed any and all "magic post-scarcity utopia" scenarios. No infinite spell traps for everything, no Heart Tree supermarkets... So we need a functioning economy (and a capitalist one, because communism feels OOC and feudalism or top-down "palace systems" scale poorly and handle industrialisation quite badly). Agreed ?
  • In this post, I will be adopting an institutionalist framework. The idea is to provide a blueprint that can be easily adapted to each individual sector, and that doesn't depend on Companions to work. Basically I want a solution that Viserys can add as official policy, and then offscreen all this as "something our institutions are doing" so that we can have fun with magitech as needed.
Proposals :
  • We want an economy where mass-produced, cheap and long lasting goods are available (magitech production, yay!), but where people still want custom-made things, where a local service economy is a thing, and where arts and tech are a thing (not just agriculture and industry). This is inspired by IRL : we produce more than we need, but instead of everyone just getting the same super cheap stuff and living more comfortably than they do now, we have varied and artificially stimulated demand.
    • Advertising and constantly renewed demand (see the fashion industry) helps such a system to work. I personally hate this for IRL ethical reasons, but promoting this seems totally IC for Viserys...
    • Furthermore, our existing anti-monopoly position should help stimulate constant competition, which will help with this. Competition spurs new product creation or improvement, after all (assuming worker's rights have a rock bottom of some sort).
  • Make sure people don't starve to death if they're too poor to afford food
  • Make sure that people attempting to start a new business can theoretically access capital loans and/or investment, assuming their credit is reasonable enough. Iron Bank microcredit, backed by Divination ? Is this already being handled ?
  • Nudge people in threatened sectors into reconverting into sectors we think will develop, and not into other threatened sectors.
  • Provide access to education and/or job training if they need to make an intense career change and are too poor to afford it themselves. Basically, give appropriate (not in a dying sector) job training to the jobless and destitute who want it.
  • Have our education and prison system focus on training people in skills that our growing industries will find useful. Skilled artisans, service workers, etc.
 
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@DakkaMania We already trade salt for iron (which we turn into steel and trade for yet more iron). There's a little island in the Stepstones whose sole trade is salt.

We could make airship with potentially absurd carrying capacities, but they are very expensive and take high level enchanting times.
 
Thinking about it, actually, what can we really do other than hype up our own "product"? If she's worried about security against tradition, demonstrating to her how irrelevant tradition is in the face of a rapidly and REALLY changing world is effective. Hugely so.

People already think of Viserys as mercantile, this isn't a huge leap to adjust it towards political realities.

A vote for Crake is a vote for increasing our market share!
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
To be clear : I am against planned obsolescence IRL.

And glad to hear that increasing market magnitude will be negating this issue in the short term !
In the long term we can just shift our economy, and voilà !
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Click to shrink...

To be fair, a lot of the planned obsolescence is down to the product being horribly outdated anyway in a few years time. Be it energy efficiency or general performance.

But for the stuff produced in-quest, that's not really an issue given that the stuff used is supposed to last for years already.


Another fun bit that just occurred to me: Plentiful grain means the proportion of money spent on food in the cities drops, meaning more money used on other stuff. Like services and entertainment. Coupled with healing magic and near modern sanitation means cities aren't actually demographic sinks as their RL counterparts were at that point in time.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
That isn't something she likes or respects though.
To a Westerosi nobles, markets and merchants are secondary : in the end, the people with military power win and the merchants follow.
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If that was actually that important to her, everyone could see it as blindingly obvious that we are more powerful than any seven Great Houses put together.

Stormlander pride dictates that she ask after other things before bending the knee. She wants someone to pitch to her!
 
Crake said:
If that was actually that important to her, everyone could see it as blindingly obvious that we are more powerful than any seven Great Houses put together.

Stormlander pride dictates that she ask after other things before bending the knee. She wants someone to pitch to her!
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Actually, from my read she's actually stupid enough to think her father's oath to Robert matters, never mind the fact her father also had an oath to Aerys he ignored. So she's not playing hard to get, she's legitimately unsure what's going on and probably doesn't even understand enough about magic or war to be able to tell we have more of it than the other guys.

I'm starting to think we should be blunt, tell her we know her secret, and then explain why we know this but others don't: Targaryen ancestral magic bloodline that makes us the powerful Sorcerer King. We can just skip the part about how it works by spying on people's dreams which is the really creepy one.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Dealing with magitech : masterpost​

I'll try to keep this updated with ideas, policies, etc. Please suggest and criticize as needed !

  • Wide-scale magitech risks causing an enormous economic crisis. IRL, such enormous changes in the structure of production were either helped and guided along by government efforts (left-wing or right-wing governments both intervened in their own way in such situations), or they caused riots, destitution and/or wars. Therefore, either we do nothing and fight to preserve the status quo (tariffs, bans, price controls...) or we go full magitech and try to help the economy transition into its new paradigm as seamlessly as possible. I personally prefer going full magitech.
    • I will be trying to keep this "nonpolitical" (ie, centrist and easily agreed upon).
    • DP has vetoed any and all "magic post-scarcity utopia" scenarios. No infinite spell traps for everything, no Heart Tree supermarkets... So we need a functioning economy (and a capitalist one, because communism feels OOC and feudalism or top-down "palace systems" scale poorly and handle industrialisation quite badly). Agreed ?
  • In this post, I will be adopting an institutionalist framework. The idea is to provide a blueprint that can be easily adapted to each individual sector, and that doesn't depend on Companions to work. Basically I want a solution that Viserys can add as official policy, and then offscreen all this as "something our institutions are doing" so that we can have fun with magitech as needed.
Proposals :
  • We want an economy where mass-produced, cheap and long lasting goods are available (magitech production, yay!), but where people still want custom-made things, where a local service economy is a thing, and where arts and tech are a thing (not just agriculture and industry). This is inspired by IRL : we produce more than we need, but instead of everyone just getting the same super cheap stuff and living comfortably we have varied and artificially stimulated demand.
    • Advertising and constantly renewed demand (see the fashion industry) helps such a system to work. I personally hate this for IRL ethical reasons, but promoting this seems totally IC for Viserys...
    • Furthermore, our existing anti-monopoly position should help stimulate constant competition, which will help with this. Competition spurs new product creation or improvement, after all (assuming worker's rights have a rock bottom of some sort).
  • Make sure people don't starve to death if they're too poor to afford food
  • Make sure that people attempting to start a new business can theoretically access capital loans and/or investment, assuming their credit is reasonable enough. Iron Bank microcredit, backed by Divination ? Is this already being handled ?
  • Nudge people in threatened sectors into reconverting into sectors we think will develop, and not into other threatened sectors.
  • Provide access to education and/or job training if they need to make an intense career change and are too poor to afford it themselves. Basically, give appropriate (not in a dying sector) job training to the jobless and destitute who want it.
  • Have our education and prison system focus on training people in skills that our growing industries will find useful. Skilled artisans, service workers, etc.
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Click to shrink...

Institutionalism:

We already have a feudal system where we want the lords to hand off the boring work to our clerks. From there, federalism is basically just a namechange of difference. This would help in government response time and regional specialization. The risk is of course destructive competition.

Artificially stimulated demand: We have the RL vehicles of that. The rich and famous. In our case, Nobility, Magisters and Companions. If the nobility is crazy for certain fashions, people will follow the lead. If a Companion is caught with something other than adventuring gear that is impossible to afford, people will emulate that. Over time, we need to ensure the rise of a middle class. Most likely it will come from artisans and low talent casters that can't rise very far.

Social security: We have lots of cheap grain. A Roman style grain dole should be doable. It's enough to survive on but not worth the bother to exploit.

Education: Maybe tie the Legions into it? Have them offer training positions for camp followers. Smiths, engineers, carpenters and so on. They'd do military service and earn the money, we get more recruits and they exit with a pension and useful skills.

I'm not familiar with rituals. Are caster levels needed or can it be done by anyone that knows it? If anyone can do it, it seems like a good way to use exces population.


Granted, short to medium term, most people will head off to newly opened land and become farmers because subsistance isn't seen as something bad. The big glut comes when all the farmland is filled to capacity and the non.ionheriting kids head for the cities.
 
065tdsa said:
Actually, from my read she's actually stupid enough to think her father's oath to Robert matters, never mind the fact her father also had an oath to Aerys he ignored. So she's not playing hard to get, she's legitimately unsure what's going on and probably doesn't even understand enough about magic or war to be able to tell we have more of it than the other guys.

I'm starting to think we should be blunt, tell her we know her secret, and then explain why we know this but others don't: Targaryen ancestral magic bloodline that makes us the powerful Sorcerer King. We can just skip the part about how it works by spying on people's dreams which is the really creepy one.
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Can we not assume people are too stupid to possess their position right off the bat without having it demonstrated first? She made an indication near the end of last chapter of wanting to be sweet talked.

Let's sweet talk her, that's the thing we're supposed to be great at.
 
[X] Plan Usurper Bad, Dragon Good
-[X] "My lady, make no mistake, we did not travel to Haystack Hall to buy your loyalty with magic trinkets or bottled miracles."
--[X] "There are, of course, a number of advantages freely available to the citizens of my realm, from something so basic and mundane as free education for any willing to learn, to the more fantastical, such as the healing provided, again free of charge, to any who is sick or injured."
---[X] "Why, a significant number of citizens now living in Sorcerer's Deep, thousands of them in fact, were sent from Westeros by agents of the Crown. They came in ships barely worthy of the name, some dangerously overloaded, most half-starved and on the edge of dehydration. Those unfortunates were sent not only to die, but to spread disease and suffering in their wake. Instead, they were made well, healed of the sicknesses which plagued them, then welcomed into the Imperium."
----[X] "Robert Baratheon sent a fleet to destroy my city before I ever turned my eyes to retaking the Iron Throne. When that one did not succeed, he sent another, a plague fleet intended to bring us low where force of arms failed. That is the man you profess loyalty to, in your father's name, despite swearing no oaths of your own."
-----[X] "There are other advantages, I must admit, beyond the simple satisfaction of knowing you support a worthy king, rather than a lout of an Usurper." As we finish speaking, use our Greater Ribbon of Disguise to transform into a woman, one resembling our mother as she was in her early womanhood. "Much can be accomplished through magic, after all." Return to male form.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
@Duesal, @DakkaMania is correct. Making Hardened Steel more easily available will be a problem.
Furthermore, I would tax the cheap steel arriving from the PoE to protect our internal markets.


I personally like the idea of going full magitech, but we don't have a way to deal with the unemployment issues yet.

Edit : IMO, we should make it clear IC that our education system and economic policy should aim to shift things towards magitech-compatibility (more services, arts, social security, tech sectors, skilled and customised products...). But let's not try to push it through this year. Poor Uraka would have a heart attack :D
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Protectionism is never going to fix this.



Our government is actually quite capable and willing to ensure for Physiological and Safety needs regardless if the smith has maintenance work, the rest is just sorting things out.

We're in luck because the vast majority of the population will be happy to have that covered, if the demographics were like the modern world where people are (in the short term) less able to provide themselves luxury then we would have social unrest but that's just not the case here.

Even your past example of selling their excess grain for profit to buy new shoes is optimistic for most of the population and it doesn't matter because new shoes falls under Physiological and Safety needs anyway.

It is a sad truth that most of the population will consider a number of things that fall under those two categories as luxury items.

[X] Crake

I would like elements of @Goldfish's plan added to @Crake's though to illustrate this isn't all distant theory and stories, mention the military action she already knows failed, twice and the plague ships show military desperation on Robert's part and Moral/Feudal superiority on ours.
Adhoc vote count started by Deliste on Jul 10, 2019 at 7:13 PM, finished with 48 posts and 6 votes.
  • [X] Peace of Mind
    -[X] "Without having the opportunity to see the results access to such arts grants, it is understandable to weigh the value of them as one might things like grain and gold, but given the abundance of the former by those same arts and the relatively rapid and assured devaluation of the latter with access to realms that have it in abundance, that just makes what has been produced thus far all the starker."
    -[X] "Even in a city like Tyrosh the results can be seen plainly in its reconstruction and also the glut of trade in the docks, pulled in from half the world over and beyond by words that can travel from one piece of artifice to another like the Glass Candles of antiquity, but they take no strength of will or the shedding of blood to power. Magic is full of mystery and dark tale because of all of the monsters roving the edges of our perception preying upon our misconceptions as much as the powerful attempt to hoard its very capabilities as much as its benefits, so people will fear them and hesitate to act against them. I can think of few ways to make this more obvious than showing you the Sky Havens of Armun Kelisk or the jeweled majesty of the Opaline Vault first hand."
    -[X] "In Sorcerer's Deep I could show you a thousand works that make the people prosperous and mine and my allies wealthy beyond comparison to even the likes of the Lannisters. But wealth or even glory is not what you would stake your House's future on."
    -[X] "What problems ail or trouble you? Perhaps close friends or family would counsel you to seek aid elsewhere, and perhaps you might find aid with such matters, but I have not yet met someone in your position yet who would claim if a problem could only be solved using magic, there was anyone else with better access to it. Let that speak plainly of my message--if a Lord or Lady of the realm should require it, I would not be the miser only letting a trickle pour through as Tywin Lannister might imagine its use."
    [X] Plan Usurper Bad, Dragon Good
    -[X] "My lady, make no mistake, we did not travel to Haystack Hall to buy your loyalty with magic trinkets or bottled miracles."
    --[X] "There are, of course, a number of advantages freely available to the citizens of my realm, from something so basic and mundane as free education for any willing to learn, to the more fantastical, such as the healing provided, again free of charge, to any who is sick or injured."
    ---[X] "Why, a significant number of citizens now living in Sorcerer's Deep, thousands of them in fact, were sent from Westeros by agents of the Crown. They came in ships barely worthy of the name, dangerously overloaded, half-starved and on the edge of dehydration. Those unfortunates were sent not only to die, but to spread disease and suffering in their wake. Instead, they were made well, healed of the sicknesses which plagued them, then welcomed into the Imperium."
    ----[X] "Robert Baratheon sent a fleet to destroy my city before I ever turned my eyes to retaking the Iron Throne. When that one did not succeed, he sent another, a plague fleet intended to bring us low where force of arms failed. That is the man you profess loyalty to, in your father's name, despite swearing no paths of your own."
    -----[X] "There are other advantages, I must admit, beyond the simple satisfaction of knowing you support a worthy king, rather than a lout of an Usurper." As we finish speaking, use our Greater Ribbon of Disguise to transform into a woman, one resembling our mother as she was in her early womanhood. "Much can be accomplished through magic, after all." Return to male form.
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Adhoc vote count started by Deliste on Jul 10, 2019 at 7:19 PM, finished with 48 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] Peace of Mind
    -[X] "Without having the opportunity to see the results access to such arts grants, it is understandable to weigh the value of them as one might things like grain and gold, but given the abundance of the former by those same arts and the relatively rapid and assured devaluation of the latter with access to realms that have it in abundance, that just makes what has been produced thus far all the starker."
    -[X] "Even in a city like Tyrosh the results can be seen plainly in its reconstruction and also the glut of trade in the docks, pulled in from half the world over and beyond by words that can travel from one piece of artifice to another like the Glass Candles of antiquity, but they take no strength of will or the shedding of blood to power. Magic is full of mystery and dark tale because of all of the monsters roving the edges of our perception preying upon our misconceptions as much as the powerful attempt to hoard its very capabilities as much as its benefits, so people will fear them and hesitate to act against them. I can think of few ways to make this more obvious than showing you the Sky Havens of Armun Kelisk or the jeweled majesty of the Opaline Vault first hand."
    -[X] "In Sorcerer's Deep I could show you a thousand works that make the people prosperous and mine and my allies wealthy beyond comparison to even the likes of the Lannisters. But wealth or even glory is not what you would stake your House's future on."
    -[X] "What problems ail or trouble you? Perhaps close friends or family would counsel you to seek aid elsewhere, and perhaps you might find aid with such matters, but I have not yet met someone in your position yet who would claim if a problem could only be solved using magic, there was anyone else with better access to it. Let that speak plainly of my message--if a Lord or Lady of the realm should require it, I would not be the miser only letting a trickle pour through as Tywin Lannister might imagine its use."
    [X] Plan Usurper Bad, Dragon Good
    -[X] "My lady, make no mistake, we did not travel to Haystack Hall to buy your loyalty with magic trinkets or bottled miracles."
    --[X] "There are, of course, a number of advantages freely available to the citizens of my realm, from something so basic and mundane as free education for any willing to learn, to the more fantastical, such as the healing provided, again free of charge, to any who is sick or injured."
    ---[X] "Why, a significant number of citizens now living in Sorcerer's Deep, thousands of them in fact, were sent from Westeros by agents of the Crown. They came in ships barely worthy of the name, dangerously overloaded, half-starved and on the edge of dehydration. Those unfortunates were sent not only to die, but to spread disease and suffering in their wake. Instead, they were made well, healed of the sicknesses which plagued them, then welcomed into the Imperium."
    ----[X] "Robert Baratheon sent a fleet to destroy my city before I ever turned my eyes to retaking the Iron Throne. When that one did not succeed, he sent another, a plague fleet intended to bring us low where force of arms failed. That is the man you profess loyalty to, in your father's name, despite swearing no paths of your own."
    -----[X] "There are other advantages, I must admit, beyond the simple satisfaction of knowing you support a worthy king, rather than a lout of an Usurper." As we finish speaking, use our Greater Ribbon of Disguise to transform into a woman, one resembling our mother as she was in her early womanhood. "Much can be accomplished through magic, after all." Return to male form.
Click to expand...
 
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DragonParadox said:
By contrast the knight she had brought with her, Haystack Hall's master-at-arms as he is introduced, takes one look at Ser Richard and blanches even with the glamour hiding the arcane arms and armor. A wise man, you think and mark his name and face more closely—Ser Criston Swygert. You wonder what relation he is to the idiot Ser Richard had almost skewered during the exchange of Stannis' ransom money.
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Not sure if anyone noticed this, once again Richard Motherfucking Lonmouth > Dread Sorcerer Bishonen Pretty Boy when it comes to musclehead threat acquisition rates.

If only most people knew that Viserys could probably pick apart anyone who isn't Aerys II Targaryen Kingsguard tier fighters. In fact I'm pretty sure he could reliably beat Human Paragons (Level 10) fighters without obvious magic and just Dark Sister, though that isn't saying much. He could probably do some bullshit anime "grab the sword of your enemy mid swing with two fingers" bullshit with magic, or just let someone stab him in the chest and just lift a brow when it fails to penetrate his Conceptual Scales.

And still, even with thoughts of Viserys Thanos Snapping a puny mortal out of existence, or turning into a dragon and eating them, Richard Godsdamned Lonmouth has grown ass men shaking in their boots like Arthur Dayne just walked in the room and heard you insult his mother.
 
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One look at Richard is enough to see he has zero fucks to give, but plenty of steel with which to shank you.

In the liver, kidneys, lungs, heart, or whatever other convenient organ happens to be in stabbing range.
 
@Goldfish I think you're on track, but I think we can seriously get her on sides without causing her to freak the hell out about not only her secret not being so secret, but having no real practical means to keep it secret. She's a young woman unsteady in her position, and things like gold, influence or glory aren't high on her mind right now, she's concerned with the safety of her family and the health of her romantic life--which to her mind is best maintained by being as secret and discrete as possible. She doesn't have the assurance of our victory and legal reform to make it known her lifestyle will be acceptable and her peers will just have to "deal with it", at any point if this comes out before she's secure in her position, she is doomed. That's her thought process.

Roll that back, focus on more visceral, palpable things which make her feel more secure in her position. It is the insecurity which causes her to seek counsel from someone who hates our guts.
 
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