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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Professor Vesca said:
@Cetashwayo What is Obanders opinion on the Dalmatae? Does he think he can treat with them well?
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Obander is hesitant, obviously. The Dalmatae, despite stereotypes, are not some kind of Conan the Barbarian image of primitive barbaroi. They are, however very unhellenized, and most importantly have no prior relationship with Eretria beyond trade. Unlike the Enetoi and the Etruscans, who are either more hellenized or have an existing relationship, Obander must walk into the situation seeking not to extend a prior relationship but establish one. He think he can do it, though, or else he wouldn't present the option.
 
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Cetashwayo said:
Obander is hesitant, obviously. The Dalmatae, despite stereotypes, are not some kind of Conan the Barbarian image of primitive barbaroi. They are, however very unhellenized, and most importantly have no prior relationship with Eretria beyond trade. Unlike the Enetoi and the Etruscans, who are either more hellenized or have an existing relationship, Obander must walk into the situation seeking not to extend a prior relationship but establish one. He think he can do it, though, or else he wouldn't present the option.
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Arkadios is a captain who sails on trading missions up and down the adriatic. Would I have anything to add to the temperament of the Dalmatae? What do we know of them, what are they like, what do they respect?
 
Professor Vesca said:
Arkadios is a captain who sails on trading missions up and down the adriatic. Would I have anything to add to the temperament of the Dalmatae? What do we know of them, what are they like, what do they respect?
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The Dalmatae are a warlike tribe of Illyrians who are primarily herders and shepherds, similar to the Oscan Samnites, with a patriarchical society led by chiefs. Some contact and trade with the Eretrians, as well as the growing flow of silver from inland, has allowed the formation of more organized chiefdoms, and an element of larger organization mainly composed in the meetings of the more notable chiefs.

They respect wise patriarchs and strength. They are most skeptical of slippery or mercurial men.
 
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The Sandman said:
The Labyrinth Has But A Single Exit
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"I agree with most that you say Methodios, but I have a single concern.

My question is that how long the Enetoi can project their forces to help us? They are traders, living from their ships and the Expedition will be at least five months, more if the Liburni not take the bait. Our triremes can stay for that long, our ekdromoi are sacred warriors ready for long war and our coffers our filled. But can we rely them in that too? On the other hand the Etruscans can send us money which is always needed and warships that are designed for war and already fighting the pirate. Also, I am convinced that Obander are more than suitable to deal with the Etruscans WHO live in sacred league of twelve cities, like our ionian cousins in The East and worship the same gods under strange names.

I think these facts are need to be take into account. "

Says Kleon Prokopios, proposer of the Artemis, Ploutos, Athene Plan, favoured by three God!
 
"Should the Ekklesia be persuaded by my arguments to ally with the Dalmatae, then let it be known that I will purchase a slave of that race from a citizen, to serve as a translator and guide for their customs, with his loyalty in this endeavor ensured by a guarantee of manumission when the visit is concluded, and that I would offer accompany Obander on this, even as little more than a porter, so that any dangers faced on the mission I have argued for would also be dangers that I would face. Let none say that Theopilos, son of Theopilos, would send others into danger while cowering from it himself, or that he would put the fortunes of others at risk, but not his own."
 
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The thing about Xenoparakletor is that they are the leader of our foreign relations. They cannot specialize in only one group as the proxenos does. They are the face of Eretria and that means they will have to talk with Barbaroi and Hellene alike. We voted him in as Xenoparakletor, so give Obander a shot at doing his job.
 
[] Plan Protos
-[] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
-[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
-[] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to chase Carthage from the Island! Carthage, with the claims of its mysterious gold and its wide-ranging trade empire, is the greatest threat to Sicily. Better to strike now when Carthage is distracted, and more cynically, to spend a generation's lives against another power [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will come into conflict with the Carthaginians].
-[] [War] The Wooden Wall
-[] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].
-[] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)

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This draws on the previous plan, with Wooden Wall as the Illyrian military option.

Overall, this is a policy of short-term risk, medium- to long-term benefit. We ally with the Dalmatae because once we start setting up Illyrian outposts, we're going to want a friendly land power that we can profitably trade with, given that our focus for the near future is going to be investing in a urban, mercantile empire on the Illyrian coast to enrich the mother city through trade.

As before, we set up Carthage as a long-term nemesis to draw the states of Italy closest to us; economic growth in Illyria lets us build a navy to challenge Carthage once they're pushed off the island; and we look for other ways to buy off Athens later on.

Ultimately, I don't see a policy of "never challenge Athens" as one that's going to be successful. Athens, like us, is going to be looking to set itself up as Italiote hegemon; unlike us, Athens has the potential to make it stick, and they may also have the diplomatic and political acumen to hold it together, given how much more advanced statecraft is because of Eretrian interference.
 
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Secretariat said:
Ultimately, I don't see a policy of "never challenge Athens" as one that's going to be successful. Athens, like us, is going to be looking to set itself up as Italiote hegemon; unlike us, Athens has the potential to make it stick, and they may also have the diplomatic and political acumen to hold it together, given how much more advanced statecraft is because of Eretrian interference.
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Honestly, I want us to 'Divine Marriage' our way into a merger with Athens. :V
 
[X] Plan Lasting Peace
-[X] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
-[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[X] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
-[X] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
-[X] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4
Known for his friendliness which he uses to lead men to battle, as well as his courage. A man of glory who won recognition as an Ekdromos defeating Illyrians in battle as well as Messapii as a young man. Known for being freewheeling in his tactics, genial and inspiring in battle, and innovative in his tactics. The naval commander during the war against Taras with impressive victories against the


Hector the Rower steps forward.

There is little I have to add to the matters of colonization. On most points the ekklesia seems to agree. I would only say, to let join one of the new colonies, whoever wishes to.

On the Congress of Gela I have however more to say.
First, I am of the opinion that the Athenians should stay out of it. Sicily does not concern them. Especially while they still have their War with the Spartans.
Someone with better oratory skill than me should convince them of that.
Secondly, we should not look for simple and quick answers. Distracting the Sicilians with a war is exactly that. Ten years may sond like a long time, but by the end of it we stand right were we are standing now. Meanwhile Carthage might not be distracted forever. When they find a disunited or otherwise occupied Sicily, it will be all they need to widen their control of the island.
Uniting them peacefully and diplomatically will hopefully open the way for lasting stability and prosperity for all. The only thing to watch out for here, would be Syracousai subverting these efforts for their own gain.

Lastly the expedition. Many have discussed the merits of the Iron Ram over The Wooden Wall. Let me say why I prefer the Ram.
One, Xanthos Irenaeos is an outstanding naval commander. He has won us many victories, both in the war against Taras and before that. I believe he has the ability to lead us to victory once more.
With the help of the Enetoi and the Histri, many of the weaknesses of his plan could be balanced out. Their pentekontors could scout any oh so cunning ambush of the pirates, and follow them into waters where our triremes would have trouble manouvering. Our fleet can stay concentrated focusing on important targets, while they attack the smaller villages and pirate fleets. Even our relative lack of knowledge of the area may be irrelevant, as the Enetoi and Histri are proud sailors themselves and surely know their home waters.
And two, why should we be content with simply giving the pirates a bloody nose. Like with Sicily, we shouldn`t go with easy and quick answers but with lasting ones. Moreso than with Sicily, a lasting peace in the adriatic could bring prosperity and opportunity the likes we may have never seen in Eretria.

Our City should not be one of half measures. It should be known as a protector and promoter of peace and stabilty, by word and deed, where ever it can.

So speaks Hector the Rower.
 
SneakySnek said:
"I agree with most that you say Methodios, but I have a single concern.

My question is that how long the Enetoi can project their forces to help us? They are traders, living from their ships and the Expedition will be at least five months, more if the Liburni not take the bait. Our triremes can stay for that long, our ekdromoi are sacred warriors ready for long war and our coffers our filled. But can we rely them in that too? On the other hand the Etruscans can send us money which is always needed and warships that are designed for war and already fighting the pirate. Also, I am convinced that Obander are more than suitable to deal with the Etruscans WHO live in sacred league of twelve cities, like our ionian cousins in The East and worship the same gods under strange names.

I think these facts are need to be take into account. "

Says Kleon Prokopios, proposer of the Artemis, Ploutos, Athene Plan, favoured by three God!
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I am of the opinion that involving ourselves in the politics of the Etruscans, about which we know nothing but that they undoubtedly have differing factions with differing aims as all groups large enough to move beyond individual arguments do, would serve to place inexcusable delay on the expedition assuming our ignorance does not scupper an alliance altogether. The Enetoi and Histri are simpler to deal with, and their internal workings better-known to us besides.

Furthermore, the Etruscans ultimately provide us with nothing but more of what we ourselves are bringing to the expedition, which, while welcome, does not provide us any otherwise unavailable opportunities. The Enetoi and Histri, however, give us two highly important things we cannot ourselves provide to this endeavor: superior numbers to blockade the Liburni and provide weight to our line when the Liburni do finally give battle, and local pilots who can provide us knowledge of the straits and shoals along the Illyrian coast that would otherwise only be held by our enemies.

Thus speaks Methodios, son of Pelagios.
 
Citizens, I Phylacus the weasel salesman would speak!

First, I would apologise for my absence from the Ekklesia last year. For reasons I will soon make clear I was unavailable. I am gratified at the wisdom shown in the Ekklesia's decisions whilst I was gone.

Now onto the matters at hand. Many know me as an advocate of Athenai, but I do not come before you today to speak of Sicily or Hellas. Many similarly know me as a trader and former ship captain but I do not come before you to talk of pirates. No, my brothers I wish the topic were so pleasant.

Our daughter, the city Kymai is beset. A full fifth of her citizenry lie dead on the Campanian plains. Pompeii has been burnt. Her men slain, women raped and children slaughtered. The temple of Apollon plundered. You ask where I was for the voting of great import last year?

I was in Kymai.

I watched from the walls as the barbaroi laid siege to the city, I spoke with survivors of Pompeii. These are our cousins across the sea, citizens of our colony. We must send aid!

Kymai has stout walls and stouter men, but against hunger even the most stout will fall. I understand that the demes intend to present plans for the assistance of Kymai next election and I welcome their honourable intention but circumstances dictate that we must act now.

Therefore, I propose that the Ekklesia authorise the purchase of a measure of grain and the shipping of it to Kymai at our expense to help support the city until more detailed plans can be voted on.

Will anyone lift my rock?

OOC: I know that might not be entirely accurate to what actually happened to Pompeii @Cetashwayo but I'm explaining it as him not being there and mostly getting third hand accounts. I hope I'm not presuming too much by doing this?
 
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I, Nereos son of Theodotos, believe that fouding successful colonies is paramount. Our entire course of action, even in Sicily, should be crafted with that aim in mind.

We know that the Liburni hate us. They will never allow Hellenes to settle peacefully among them. They need to be brought to heel. Then our colonies will have time enough to grow and prosper, with the threat of Liburnian attacks diminished. The pirates know our strength. They will try to whittle down our triremes in hidden coves and treacherous channels. We need allies that can navigate this maze. The Enetoi have fought the Liburni in the past. Victory eluded them, but they still gathered valuable knowledge that will complement our own. Epiktetos Linos is wise to promote a plan that plays to our strength, while limiting the pirates' odds of sinking our fleet in some cunning trap.

Once war ends in Illyria, we can establish colonies. However, fighting could quickly resume if we are not careful. War is the greatest threat to new colonies. Moreover, who among this assembly would be willing to cross the sea, with their wives and children, to settle in a war-plagued land? We remember the long struggle against the Peuketii, the bloody war waged against the Dauni. Unless we are willing and able to suffer a series of skirmishes over decades, or even wage a sustained war, we need to maintain cordial relations with neighbouring tribes. We can do this by controlling where and when new colonies are established.

Yet although we do not wish for war in our future colonies, we must be ready for it. It is vital that we encourage close relations between the new colonies, those already established by other cities, and the Epulian League. A stronger solidarity between the cities of the Adriatic, under our aegis, is the surest way to ensure that any colony under attack would quickly receive aid. Let all our colonies share in the Epulian League's might!

As for Sicily, I do not know enough about the land to speak at length about our options. Yet I feel that a chance of peace is better for Eretria than certain war. War is fickle. Look no further than the events in Hellas, as stated by our Xenoparakletor! Athens was preeminent, going from victory to victory, and now they suffer one setback after the other. How can we trust word that Athens will send men and treasure to Sicily, while they are so hard-pressed at home?

I will lift Methodios' rock.


[X] Plan The Labyrinth Has But A Single Exit
 
"I, Theopilos, son of Theopilos, will lift your rock, Phylacus. I will donate a measure of my own harvest to this end."

"As will I, beside my father. The citizens of Kymai are our kin, we cannot abandon them."
 
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The Sandman said:
I am of the opinion that involving ourselves in the politics of the Etruscans, about which we know nothing but that they undoubtedly have differing factions with differing aims as all groups large enough to move beyond individual arguments do, would serve to place inexcusable delay on the expedition assuming our ignorance does not scupper an alliance altogether. The Enetoi and Histri are simpler to deal with, and their internal workings better-known to us besides.

Furthermore, the Etruscans ultimately provide us with nothing but more of what we ourselves are bringing to the expedition, which, while welcome, does not provide us any otherwise unavailable opportunities. The Enetoi and Histri, however, give us two highly important things we cannot ourselves provide to this endeavor: superior numbers to blockade the Liburni and provide weight to our line when the Liburni do finally give battle, and local pilots who can provide us knowledge of the straits and shoals along the Illyrian coast that would otherwise only be held by our enemies.

Thus speaks Methodios, son of Pelagios.
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"Fair spoken Methodios! If we want to make our presence bigger in the Adria, we have to involve ourselves with the Etruscans. Why not start the formal relations with an alliance against a common foe? The Northern Etruscan league is one of the bigger nations at the shores of the sea, and if we won't start to warm them towards us, the will probably won't tolerate our colonial plans. The Enetoi might give us superior numbers, but not quality. And if we will manoeuvre between the islands of the Liburnian coast, the numbers will be of less significance than the skill of the sailors and warriors. The local pilots is a fair point but Enetoi and Histri aren't really living inside the labyrinth of the island. They are traders working in the region - just like the Etruscans.
And to be clear: I am in no quarrel with you, we share almost the same platform. Only if we manage to reach a consensus in this question, we can almost double the voters behind our plan!"

FriedIce said:
Will anyone lift my rock?
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"And I, Kleon Prokopios will lift it too! I also subsidize it with my own wealth, if the Ekklesia accept the motion! We need to act, soon!"
 
Before we heave rocks hither and yon, will we even have the triremes available to rescue the people of Kymai, while also persecuting our pirate raid?
 
Professor Vesca said:
Before we heave rocks hither and yon, will we even have the triremes available to rescue the people of Kymai, while also persecuting our pirate raid?
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I do not suggest to rescue the people of Kymai, merely to ship them some grain at our expense to support them in the siege and limit their hunger.

As stout as Kymai's walls and people, hunger will kill everyone the same.
 
Professor Vesca said:
Before we heave rocks hither and yon, will we even have the triremes available to rescue the people of Kymai, while also persecuting our pirate raid?
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OOC: The motion isnt calling on us to rescue Kymai with a military expedition. Its an motion to help Kymai survive just a little longer as we deal with other issues by shipping them grains to help them sustain the siege.
 
Professor Vesca said:
Before we heave rocks hither and yon, will we even have the triremes available to rescue the people of Kymai, while also persecuting our pirate raid?
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There are several ways to get the food and grain to Kymai, traders unaffiliated with Eretria, some of our Pentekontor Fleet, where we had about 20 or so for our fishing Fleet alone last thread, and who knows how many we have post Drakonid dominance, or just sending the money to a close supplier and letting them hand over the grain.

Triremes don't come into this, it's not a military endeavour.
 
Dareios: "I have a counter-proposal. Rather than spending good grain on a doomed city, instead send a few ships to evacuate as many of their citizens as possible and settle them in Eretria. This way, instead of wasting resources, we'd be profiting from this endeavour. And hey, we'd still be aiding them with their hunger problem by taking away some of their hungry mouths!"
 
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FriedIce said:
Citizens, I Phylacus the weasel salesman would speak!

First, I would apologise for my absence from the Ekklesia last year. For reasons I will soon make clear I was unavailable. I am gratified at the wisdom shown in the Ekklesia's decisions whilst I was gone.

Now onto the matters at hand. Many know me as an advocate of Athenai, but I do not come before you today to speak of Sicily or Hellas. Many similarly know me as a trader and former ship captain but I do not come before you to talk of pirates. No, my brothers I wish the topic were so pleasant.

Our daughter, the city Kymai is beset. A full fifth of her citizenry lie dead on the Campanian plains. Pompeii has been burnt. Her men slain, women raped and children slaughtered. The temple of Apollon plundered. You ask where I was for the voting of great import last year?

I was in Kymai.

I watched from the walls as the barbaroi laid siege to the city, I spoke with survivors of Pompeii. These are our cousins across the sea, citizens of our colony. We must send aid!

Kymai has stout walls and stouter men, but against hunger even the most stout will fall. I understand that the demes intend to present plans for the assistance of Kymai next election and I welcome their honourable intention but circumstances dictate that we must act now.

Therefore, I propose that the Ekklesia authorise the purchase of a measure of grain and the shipping of it to Kymai at our expense to help support the city until more detailed plans can be voted on.

Will anyone lift my rock?
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There will be options relating to Kymai soon and it will be done via user motion. In the meantime Kymai has enough of a granary to hold out for several years. It doesn't really need grain at this point.

That said, no problem with your wider post. If people want to elaborate on my statements like this it's fine.
 
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