Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Thucydides has a family estate in Thrace. He has no reason to go to Eretria.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- Philippines
[X] Plan Phokion
Kill all, destroy all, burn all pirates.
The rest I agree with Phokion.
- Iskandar Xanatos trying to be laconic.
Kill all, destroy all, burn all pirates.
The rest I agree with Phokion.
- Iskandar Xanatos trying to be laconic.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
look, just because he's sitting on a literal gold mine in Thrake doesn't mean we can't try
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
I, Timanthes Thymoetes, am most honored by the reception of my newest play. I thank all those who have supported me and those who made helpful suggestions that enabled my work to further honor both the gods and Eretria. I encourage you all to come and see it, and to continue to support me and my future works.
I am as yet new to the debates of the ekklesia, and with the city marching off to war I am hesitant as yet to offer any great counsel without first learning more about the situation. However, there is one matter which I would like to address.
Given plans which have been presented to the ekklesia regarding plans for an expedition to the Enetoi, it may be beneficial to gain closer relations with them, so that this trading venture may find more success. Of course, it may also be beneficial to seek other allies and not involve the Enetoi, so that if the campaign were to go awry, the failures therein would not be held against us, which could result in the failure of a trading expedition.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
[X] Plan Phokion
Has pretty much everything I want.
Has pretty much everything I want.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
Hmm...several hours more before I can have access to a desktop to attempt to write a plan.
Or I could not participate in voting this one time by IC reason of being an Olympic participant and still being on my way home.
Hmm...decisions, decisions...
@Cetashwayo, those cash prices for excellence in public speaking...if the person supposed to receive the cash prices are out of the city for the moment, are the cash prices being kept in safekeeping until they return?
Or I could not participate in voting this one time by IC reason of being an Olympic participant and still being on my way home.
Hmm...decisions, decisions...
@Cetashwayo, those cash prices for excellence in public speaking...if the person supposed to receive the cash prices are out of the city for the moment, are the cash prices being kept in safekeeping until they return?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Yeah, they are.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Phobos
-[] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
-[] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[] [] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
-[] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4
"In all other matters, your words ring true to my ears, but on the matter of the Liburnians I must dissent. Their hatred for us is well-known and rooted deep in the ages. Furthermore, it is difficult for a city to stop raiders and pirates wholly, especially for a scattered tribe of barbaroi, and one for whom many of the most wealthy and powerful may be pirates at that. Rather than give them the chance to return at some later time when we are once again distracted, it might be best to strike decisively now and make a certain end of this."
OOC:i'm uncertain which anti-pirate option is better, even with the questionable strategos, so here's my plan that is identical except for the strategos. I've already stated why the enetoi are better for this plan, so even that stays
-[] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
-[] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[] [] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
-[] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4
"In all other matters, your words ring true to my ears, but on the matter of the Liburnians I must dissent. Their hatred for us is well-known and rooted deep in the ages. Furthermore, it is difficult for a city to stop raiders and pirates wholly, especially for a scattered tribe of barbaroi, and one for whom many of the most wealthy and powerful may be pirates at that. Rather than give them the chance to return at some later time when we are once again distracted, it might be best to strike decisively now and make a certain end of this."
OOC:i'm uncertain which anti-pirate option is better, even with the questionable strategos, so here's my plan that is identical except for the strategos. I've already stated why the enetoi are better for this plan, so even that stays
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Excellent post. I've been picking through my brain, here's what I've found amidst the lint.
There are a couple of different schemes we could make use of here. Restricting selection keeps our own growth sharp while limiting that of the colonies (who although capable of naval and trade contributions are rather far to provide hoplites and the like), so those with more of an Italian focus in line with the Antipatrids or Exorians may wish to keep the selection by lot rather than funding voyages. Of course, increasing the growth rate of the Adriatic colonies makes them less liable to be snuffed out, and being the linchpin of a network of Greek cities has plenty of its own benefits- consider how much more readily a colony off the Liburnian coast would begin to shoo away pirates that threatened the lifeblood of its trade, even before we could have heard of it. Such problems could be snuffed out in their cradle, far before the pirates could grow strong from a steady diet of wealth and prestige to challenge Eretria. With I having my bias to the Adriatic, I support heavy emigration to reduce the vulnerability of fledgling colonies- with some restrictions, however.
As the city funds the voyages, it would be best to ensure that these expeditions are actually within the city's interest. We have no need for a band of transient Metics to seize our wealth and use it to descend upon an ally or trade partner, sparking conflict where there had been a profitable peace. By ensuring that our efforts are concentrated against only the weakest and most diplomatically isolated powers of the Adriatic, or the ones most welcoming of Hellenic civilization, we do not split our focus. This means that our heavy emigration can build up strong fledgling colonies as intended, rather than distributing themselves amidst great multitudes of sites that are then vulnerable to the counterattacks of the barbaroi they enrage.
In line with this policy, I think it best to keep them in a full league. With an Eretria left somewhat diminished by the outflows relative to the other state, and the few colonies created strong from the focus on them, it will eventually be difficult for Eretria to enact and maintain an iron-fisted policy from across the seas. Instead, we should capitalize on the goodwill of the new colonists whose journey and carefully picked site were provided by Eretrian efforts and induct them as full members. Additionally, we may yet profit from the reckless colonization of other Greeks (should we choose to accept them into our fold with their attending problems), as extending full league membership incentivizes their joining.
There's much to consider here, but some clear synergies present themselves. Observe, for instance, how Selinous has trading interests in the west and concern about the Elymians. Since Carthage owns most of what is to the west of them aside from what is the Elymians, we can likely discern that attempting to strike Carthage would do a number on their trade and open them up to Elymian harassment while their efforts are concentrated elsewhere; voting to chase Carthage off is therefore unlikely to win them over. Moving against the Sikels would likely strike fear and dismay in the heart of the other local barbaroi, however. Gela as the ceremonial center of the Sikeliote identity is probably more prone to that Sicily for Sicilians idea, and it has suffered rather greatly from foreign intervention. However, I really doubt that Athens would help us with this while they're looking for an edge in their massive war (and besides that, it seems rather suspicious to have the two big foreign powers advocating for the foreigners to not be involved). However, if we do want to have them attack Carthage and start up that storm again, it might be best to spread the blame around rather than painting it all on ourselves- the more folks Carthage is angered by, the less likely any particular one is to be smote furiously. Involving Athens may shift more responsibility for the subsequent debacle on them, what with their being the larger empire and all.
I'm rather torn- I definitely don't want to be on the bad side of Athens, since it has quite a lot of sway even with the recent change of fortune against it. However, building a group of Sicilians to constantly manage the peace among themselves is exactly what I have declared that I wanted- so long as Syrakousai is a city among others and not THE city and decider, we should be relatively safe because campaigning all the way out in the Adriatic is just such a far pain when they have local barbaroi and the Carthaginians to worry about. I think that I will bite on the bullet of somewhat worse relations and hope that our vital grain exports carry us in the meantime until we can make things up to them, as being able to divest more of our attentions away from here and towards the Adriatic is a priceless treasure to my enjoyment. The alternate idea is getting together with Athens to convince Gela to troll the Carthaginians (as I'm not sure that fighting the Sikels after aligning with Selinous would be all that compelling considering how the Sikels are so poor and apparently not regarded as all that much of a threat and more of annoyance), but then I'm afraid that we exchanged the worry about Syrakousai's revenge to an even stronger entity even further away from the area I want to focus on.
I think I fall on the side of preferring a cold Athens for a Syrakousai unable to assert itself over a tightly bound Sicily emphasizing its own interests as a block and maintaining internal balance of power. We don't have an inherent reason to stick our thumbs into the pie of Sicily over and over like this, it's mainly driven by not wanting our population slaughtered and sold into slavery if the island gets unified under Syrakousai who might then use Sicilian manpower to enact their revenge- and really, I don't think the rest of the Sicilians would be into that prospect either.
I prefer the more cautious approach here. It's emphasized again and again that the strength of the Liburnians is in their ambushes in the narrow inlets, where large ships cannot maneuver well and they can rely on their small, maneuverable craft as well as the local knowledge of coves and islands to ambush. The Iron Ram plan challenges this head on by sailing straight up in force with nearly our entire fleet into this area of their relative strength. If we can instead establish a hold at the Issa, we can take the time to become a bit more familiar with the area and make use of the capabilities of the allies that I hope to draft in. If we look at what our possible allies may bring to the table, we see quite different capabilities.
The northern Etruscans (perhaps just the Etruscans at this point, since despite the southern existence on the map it seems from @Cetashwayo's intro that they got overrun by the Samnites?) bear riches and triremes, though we do not really lack for either. Their triremes are likely as bulky as ours (possibly more so since we went for a novel design with less crew albeit similar capabilities if I recall correctly), so they are likely as not to just clutter up our already large seas in some of the narrow channels that we will need to raid to bait out the Liburnians. Overall I see this as the worst military addition, but it's always nice to get paid.
The Enetoi and the Histri have not only warriors but forty pentekontors, the light and maneuverable ships that the Liburnians make use of in these narrow waters. These may be used to maneuver where our large triremes may not, potentially flushing out ambushes and bringing to bear the same piratical qualities to draw the ire of the Liburnians on raids. I think that this serves as the best complementary force; though they are not so numerous as that of the enemy, if they can be used to discover ambushes or draw out the foe we will be perfectly capable of using our superior triremes to crush the foe.
The Dalmatae as the strong local land power are another reasonable military choice, though as they operate in another sphere it's rather hard to coordinate; they cannot very easily land on the island hideouts to sweep for pirates laying in ambush, for instance, and my preferred strategy doesn't really take the fight close enough to the Liburnians to give them a big hand either by distracting land forces. They would be a solid choice to establish good contacts with if we were having the willy-nilly colonization just to head off our tiny land colonies getting winked right out by angry barbaroi whom we haven't built any prior credibility with, but for the controlled colonies that I prefer... eh.
So far as I see it, if the Liburnians again take up piracy, that presents another chance to encroach upon them with the blessings of everyone else harmed by it- this time with better local knowledge, allowing us to penetrate deeper. If the Liburnians get wiped out by a land rival whose sway they fall under, that's a bit harder to me. By coordinating closely with the Enetoi and the Histri (which incidentally helps us to see the tactics we're facing more easily from our side as well as they use similar ships), I think we can butter those merchants and fishermen up for better trade deals (think of the amber!) and simultaneously engage in this war in a way least harmful to us and not so deleterious to the integrity of the Liburnians. This means that further tantrums on their part when we are better established in the area can be used to feed our colonization efforts, even as the locals are more so on our side.
Considering all this, I present my plan:
[x] Plan Adriatic Focus
[x] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
[x] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
[x] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
[x] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
[x] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[x] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
[x] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
[x] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
There are a couple of different schemes we could make use of here. Restricting selection keeps our own growth sharp while limiting that of the colonies (who although capable of naval and trade contributions are rather far to provide hoplites and the like), so those with more of an Italian focus in line with the Antipatrids or Exorians may wish to keep the selection by lot rather than funding voyages. Of course, increasing the growth rate of the Adriatic colonies makes them less liable to be snuffed out, and being the linchpin of a network of Greek cities has plenty of its own benefits- consider how much more readily a colony off the Liburnian coast would begin to shoo away pirates that threatened the lifeblood of its trade, even before we could have heard of it. Such problems could be snuffed out in their cradle, far before the pirates could grow strong from a steady diet of wealth and prestige to challenge Eretria. With I having my bias to the Adriatic, I support heavy emigration to reduce the vulnerability of fledgling colonies- with some restrictions, however.
As the city funds the voyages, it would be best to ensure that these expeditions are actually within the city's interest. We have no need for a band of transient Metics to seize our wealth and use it to descend upon an ally or trade partner, sparking conflict where there had been a profitable peace. By ensuring that our efforts are concentrated against only the weakest and most diplomatically isolated powers of the Adriatic, or the ones most welcoming of Hellenic civilization, we do not split our focus. This means that our heavy emigration can build up strong fledgling colonies as intended, rather than distributing themselves amidst great multitudes of sites that are then vulnerable to the counterattacks of the barbaroi they enrage.
In line with this policy, I think it best to keep them in a full league. With an Eretria left somewhat diminished by the outflows relative to the other state, and the few colonies created strong from the focus on them, it will eventually be difficult for Eretria to enact and maintain an iron-fisted policy from across the seas. Instead, we should capitalize on the goodwill of the new colonists whose journey and carefully picked site were provided by Eretrian efforts and induct them as full members. Additionally, we may yet profit from the reckless colonization of other Greeks (should we choose to accept them into our fold with their attending problems), as extending full league membership incentivizes their joining.
There's much to consider here, but some clear synergies present themselves. Observe, for instance, how Selinous has trading interests in the west and concern about the Elymians. Since Carthage owns most of what is to the west of them aside from what is the Elymians, we can likely discern that attempting to strike Carthage would do a number on their trade and open them up to Elymian harassment while their efforts are concentrated elsewhere; voting to chase Carthage off is therefore unlikely to win them over. Moving against the Sikels would likely strike fear and dismay in the heart of the other local barbaroi, however. Gela as the ceremonial center of the Sikeliote identity is probably more prone to that Sicily for Sicilians idea, and it has suffered rather greatly from foreign intervention. However, I really doubt that Athens would help us with this while they're looking for an edge in their massive war (and besides that, it seems rather suspicious to have the two big foreign powers advocating for the foreigners to not be involved). However, if we do want to have them attack Carthage and start up that storm again, it might be best to spread the blame around rather than painting it all on ourselves- the more folks Carthage is angered by, the less likely any particular one is to be smote furiously. Involving Athens may shift more responsibility for the subsequent debacle on them, what with their being the larger empire and all.
I'm rather torn- I definitely don't want to be on the bad side of Athens, since it has quite a lot of sway even with the recent change of fortune against it. However, building a group of Sicilians to constantly manage the peace among themselves is exactly what I have declared that I wanted- so long as Syrakousai is a city among others and not THE city and decider, we should be relatively safe because campaigning all the way out in the Adriatic is just such a far pain when they have local barbaroi and the Carthaginians to worry about. I think that I will bite on the bullet of somewhat worse relations and hope that our vital grain exports carry us in the meantime until we can make things up to them, as being able to divest more of our attentions away from here and towards the Adriatic is a priceless treasure to my enjoyment. The alternate idea is getting together with Athens to convince Gela to troll the Carthaginians (as I'm not sure that fighting the Sikels after aligning with Selinous would be all that compelling considering how the Sikels are so poor and apparently not regarded as all that much of a threat and more of annoyance), but then I'm afraid that we exchanged the worry about Syrakousai's revenge to an even stronger entity even further away from the area I want to focus on.
I think I fall on the side of preferring a cold Athens for a Syrakousai unable to assert itself over a tightly bound Sicily emphasizing its own interests as a block and maintaining internal balance of power. We don't have an inherent reason to stick our thumbs into the pie of Sicily over and over like this, it's mainly driven by not wanting our population slaughtered and sold into slavery if the island gets unified under Syrakousai who might then use Sicilian manpower to enact their revenge- and really, I don't think the rest of the Sicilians would be into that prospect either.
I prefer the more cautious approach here. It's emphasized again and again that the strength of the Liburnians is in their ambushes in the narrow inlets, where large ships cannot maneuver well and they can rely on their small, maneuverable craft as well as the local knowledge of coves and islands to ambush. The Iron Ram plan challenges this head on by sailing straight up in force with nearly our entire fleet into this area of their relative strength. If we can instead establish a hold at the Issa, we can take the time to become a bit more familiar with the area and make use of the capabilities of the allies that I hope to draft in. If we look at what our possible allies may bring to the table, we see quite different capabilities.
The northern Etruscans (perhaps just the Etruscans at this point, since despite the southern existence on the map it seems from @Cetashwayo's intro that they got overrun by the Samnites?) bear riches and triremes, though we do not really lack for either. Their triremes are likely as bulky as ours (possibly more so since we went for a novel design with less crew albeit similar capabilities if I recall correctly), so they are likely as not to just clutter up our already large seas in some of the narrow channels that we will need to raid to bait out the Liburnians. Overall I see this as the worst military addition, but it's always nice to get paid.
The Enetoi and the Histri have not only warriors but forty pentekontors, the light and maneuverable ships that the Liburnians make use of in these narrow waters. These may be used to maneuver where our large triremes may not, potentially flushing out ambushes and bringing to bear the same piratical qualities to draw the ire of the Liburnians on raids. I think that this serves as the best complementary force; though they are not so numerous as that of the enemy, if they can be used to discover ambushes or draw out the foe we will be perfectly capable of using our superior triremes to crush the foe.
The Dalmatae as the strong local land power are another reasonable military choice, though as they operate in another sphere it's rather hard to coordinate; they cannot very easily land on the island hideouts to sweep for pirates laying in ambush, for instance, and my preferred strategy doesn't really take the fight close enough to the Liburnians to give them a big hand either by distracting land forces. They would be a solid choice to establish good contacts with if we were having the willy-nilly colonization just to head off our tiny land colonies getting winked right out by angry barbaroi whom we haven't built any prior credibility with, but for the controlled colonies that I prefer... eh.
So far as I see it, if the Liburnians again take up piracy, that presents another chance to encroach upon them with the blessings of everyone else harmed by it- this time with better local knowledge, allowing us to penetrate deeper. If the Liburnians get wiped out by a land rival whose sway they fall under, that's a bit harder to me. By coordinating closely with the Enetoi and the Histri (which incidentally helps us to see the tactics we're facing more easily from our side as well as they use similar ships), I think we can butter those merchants and fishermen up for better trade deals (think of the amber!) and simultaneously engage in this war in a way least harmful to us and not so deleterious to the integrity of the Liburnians. This means that further tantrums on their part when we are better established in the area can be used to feed our colonization efforts, even as the locals are more so on our side.
Considering all this, I present my plan:
[x] Plan Adriatic Focus
[x] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
[x] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
[x] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
[x] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
[x] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[x] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
[x] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
[x] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
...
*On a boat sailing back to Eretria, amongst a group of gloomy men sad over their performance in the Olympics, was a somewhat less sad man writing his notes on papyrus regarding the interesting results of his culinary experiments on including seaweeds in fish soup, done with the help of metics paid to taste test the soups. All of a sudden he stops writing and looks up at the sky*
I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the psiloi, sense something being decided in Eretria without my presence.
Last edited:
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Right, those were the northern Etruscans, but weren't the southern ones at Capeva just wiped out as an independent power by the Samnites? So then these might be just the Etruscans from this point, not the northern Etruscans.
These guys.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
No, because they're Etruscan colonies in the Po Valley. The Etruscans extend across the entirety of central Italy. That whole area in the middle are Etruscans.
- Location
- nowhere
[X] Plan Phobos
-[] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
-[] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[] [] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
-[] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4
-[] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
-[] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[] [] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
-[] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Ah. I thought all of Etruria proper (however you'd call the central brown area just north of where the Romans and Volsci cut them off) was considered as lumped in with the term northern Etruscans as well as the part covering the Po Valley. My apologies.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
No worries. Far as we know the northern Etruscans had their own league of cities and were a separate entity even if culturally tied to the "main" Etruscans.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A brief explaination of why I still prefer Iron Ram despite the high chance of unpleasentness. Info for comparison
One annoyance I have with the Iron Ram plan, however, is why not START with the capital. We only have the advantage of surprise once, so why not smash as many ships as we can in the first blow?
The highlight here for me is that the main threat to our naval forces is ambush. In Iron Ram, we open the war with a base strike and burn some of their ships in harbor, then continue raiding cities as a cohesive unit. In Wooden Wall, we spend 66% more time in the area, cede the initiative to them without burning their fleets in the harbor, and then split our triremes into 6 tiny raiding forces. That sees like a great recipe for ambushes, both in the water and on land.
One annoyance I have with the Iron Ram plan, however, is why not START with the capital. We only have the advantage of surprise once, so why not smash as many ships as we can in the first blow?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Iadar is well-fortified and has a fortified harbor. It's not exactly an easy target.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
The way I see it, the problem for ambushes is more based on our environment. Out on the open seas our large ships are faster and can carry themselves out of a sticky situation while having the room to turn themselves around and cause destruction. The problem with the narrow channels is that the room they need to turn and position themselves is quite low, they have little margin before they start running onto rocks while the small and light pentekontors don't suffer as much, particularly since the Liburnians have local knowledge. If we have a bunch of huge ships in a tiny area, we worsen our capability to maneuver. We can't easily smash the small ships surrounding us if we have to pull the naval equivalent of a three point turn between a bunch of jagged rocks while they can readily slip through. Issa where we'd be staying is a bit better terrain in this respect, you can see that it's a much more open environment. I'm not concerned about our ability to demolish pentekontors out in the open, we've done that fairly convincingly in every engagement we've had with them.
Also, look on the map for where Iadar is. There are a lot of narrow straits, archipelagos and islands in the area (the map is an oversimplification and it still looks harrowing) and just making a straight cut for it would allow us to easily be enveloped from behind. We're still a bunch of huge ships navigating crazy coastlines with jillions of small islands, we're not going to come upon their capital unannounced when they have so many people with ships that are nimbler for the area able to dash on over.
Edit: Got to get ready for a long day at work in not so many hours, I'll respond more tomorrow evening unless I end up having to stay late.
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[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
[] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
I am very tempted by the Carthaginian option but since I very much doubt that we could keep our involvement there secret I have to vote for another option since I really don't want to create a lasting enmity with the Phoenician giant, distracted it may be. Though I could see myself see supporting the war against the sicels since I fear that any sicilian league will end up being influenced by Syracuse to a greater degree than we may be entirely comfortable with. And I fully admit that keeping the Athenians out is probably the better option but I just can't resist the option of cooperating with Alkibades and making an impression on him (plus on a more cynical note better to have Atehns distracted with Sicily and likely Carthage than the Adriatic).
[] [Allies] The Northern Etruscans. Wealthy and powerful, an alliance made with the northern Etruscans will draw Eretria into their politics, with its advantages and disadvantages. The northern Etruscans can commit a small force of triremes and pay for part of the Eretrian expedition, considering their fight against piracy a service [If successful, better relations with Northern Etruscans, +40 talents, 5 allied triremes].
[] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
A lot of good and interesting choices to take here but I personally like the idea of gaining the Etruscans as friends the most even if that means going with the more passive option in regards to war.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
It is the Daunii raid all over again. While ambitious, and we will need to put Iadar to the torch eventually, if only to break the will of the Liburnians and wean them from piracy once and for all, now is not the time. We send our triremes into narrow straits where they cannot maneuver against an enemy who favors boarding actions to ramming. In open waters our triremes are faster, and can wheel about in an instant to break their ships upon our rams. In the northern islands? The advantage is theirs, without even addressing their superior local knowledge of sandbars and islands and passageways and hidden coves.
I have sailed my vessels up and down the adriatic on trading voyages many years. Often I have had to run for my life to avoid their pentekonters whenever I stray too close to them lest my head decorate some barbaroi spike in some backwards village. This is not an illness we can excise in one fell swoop. Truly it is in our power to do so. But the Gods would have to row along side us to see the task through, and they might deny us for our hubris in assuming their blessing.
To believe that we now have the power to excise the Liburnians is hubris. Better we are to draw them out, and ally with the Enetoi and the Histri, who have better local knowledge, and vessels better suited to the islands of the Liburnians besides. Let us flush their ships out to open water and break them upon our bows. Then, next year, we might consider moving into their islands and finally breaking their will to live. The pentekonters are the threat in those islands, so we must reduce their number before we can finally put an end to this once and for all.
Reach for only that which we can hold, establish our colony, and put an end to this nonsense when we are better prepared. The Liburnians cannot stop us or our ships, so it is no great hurry to defeat them. Yes, we are unlikely to get all of their ships. But to reduce their number is to give us the advantage in the continuing conflict.
So says I, Arkadios the Captain, son of Arkadios the fisherman.
I have sailed my vessels up and down the adriatic on trading voyages many years. Often I have had to run for my life to avoid their pentekonters whenever I stray too close to them lest my head decorate some barbaroi spike in some backwards village. This is not an illness we can excise in one fell swoop. Truly it is in our power to do so. But the Gods would have to row along side us to see the task through, and they might deny us for our hubris in assuming their blessing.
To believe that we now have the power to excise the Liburnians is hubris. Better we are to draw them out, and ally with the Enetoi and the Histri, who have better local knowledge, and vessels better suited to the islands of the Liburnians besides. Let us flush their ships out to open water and break them upon our bows. Then, next year, we might consider moving into their islands and finally breaking their will to live. The pentekonters are the threat in those islands, so we must reduce their number before we can finally put an end to this once and for all.
Reach for only that which we can hold, establish our colony, and put an end to this nonsense when we are better prepared. The Liburnians cannot stop us or our ships, so it is no great hurry to defeat them. Yes, we are unlikely to get all of their ships. But to reduce their number is to give us the advantage in the continuing conflict.
So says I, Arkadios the Captain, son of Arkadios the fisherman.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The map is also a huge oversimplification of the southern Islands.For example, that little island in their very southeast? It looks like this:
In addition, you once again discard the danger of ambush on land. The wooden wall plan calls for the division of our force into 6 raiding parties. With the Enetoi added in, that's (500 Ekdromoi+200 Psilloi+200 allies)/6=150 men per raid. That seems like a perilously small number to me, especially given the completely unknown terrain.
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inawarminister
I ♥ anime
[X] Plan Phokion
Is it time for a new Iapyziges in the Sikiles?
Is it time for a new Iapyziges in the Sikiles?
dontpressenter
Irrational Philosopher
- Location
- An alternate universe not unlike our own...
As someone more at home on a farm than on the waters, I admit my knowledge on naval warfare to be significantly less than my peers. So with that being said, I think we can all agree that in the end we will have to break the will of the Liburnians in order to completely solve our little pirate problem. The question is if the conditions are suitable for such an attempt.
So I ask those in the assembly who are more experienced in this field. What are the conditions that we would wait for in which it would be possible to end this persistent and tiresome menace? For to me it seems they will always have the home ground advantage, no matter how long we wait. If not now, when?
So asks Heliodoros, son of Giorgios.
So I ask those in the assembly who are more experienced in this field. What are the conditions that we would wait for in which it would be possible to end this persistent and tiresome menace? For to me it seems they will always have the home ground advantage, no matter how long we wait. If not now, when?
So asks Heliodoros, son of Giorgios.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I will say that if it wasn't for the ridiculous 3 trireme squad thing, I would be all the way behind wooden wall after kipeci and vesca's arguments. It's just the absurd division of our forces that dissuades me. It feels to me like Linos is so proud of his guerrilla war success that he's trying to repeat it here despite this conflict being an offensive war in enemy territory that he has no knowledge of, and where retreat can be cut off easily and much more completely.