Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
So would Shakespeare have been equally loved by both the Greeks and Romans, or equally hated?
- Location
- Luton Airport
Pathos and knob gags?! The man's a genius!
PyroTechno
The Procrastination Pokemon
i just realized that i didn't actually vote
lol
lol
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
Can't wait to see the fluff on this. One group of Greek men arguing passionately for the virtues of the marrried woman vs. another group of Greek men arguing passionately for the virtues of the widowed woman.
If an Athenian, a Korinthian and a Spartan walked into the assembly right then they'd be so shook.
PyroTechno
The Procrastination Pokemon
If an Athenian, a Korinthian and a Spartan walked into anywhere they'd be shook. Because they'd be trying to strangle each other.
THE WAIFU WARS WILL CONTINUE
(In all seriousness, I was being entirely genuine before when talking about wanting to do an even bigger Persephone & Demeter festival around the harvest.)
Turn 8, 352 OL: Children of War
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Turn 8, 352 OL: Children of War
352 OL
Capeva, Campania
"Youngest men in front, oldest in the back!"
We are not a warlike people. We are shepherds, simple and plain. We live, we laugh, we love. We tell stories to our children and hope they will carry on our memory. Our wives weave and our daughters sing, and we are all content. We live in the uplands and no one bothers us. We are at at peace, in confederation with each other. The people are pious, and pray to the Gods, and some tell stories of an ocean cloth of the eastern coast as smooth as pools of water. And then, the time comes when we have to send our boys away.
"Hold Formation! Stay below the standard!"
It happens when the starving returns, and the children all go hungry. It may come in a year, or a decade, or a century, but it comes. The grazing lands become full with the people and their herds, and fights begin. The tribes of Safinum fall apart in jealousies. The peace ends and the blood runs down the mountains and the hills, and fear grips us. Men wound men, women wound women, children wound children. All fight against all. The conflict between tribes becomes too much, and so the decision is then made. We must send our boys away.
"Breakthrough, on the left! Now, Marcus, Now!"
We sanctify them and we tell them they are blessed by Mamers from their time of birth, we promise them riches and wealth, we honor them and tell them victory is their destiny. Our leaders, our heroes, our men who throw javelins like Gods, advise them of the best cities and the richest lands to take, the tactics and the strategy by which they will wage their wars of conquest. We watch as they fall in love but know they will never marry. We watch as they think up dreams of peaceful life and happy wives then remember they were born for war. We embrace them and tell them they will always be our children, but still we send our boys away.
"Do not brawl for the spoils! You are not dogs!"
We tell ourselves that they will vanquish all the lowlands and conquer all before them, that they will grow old and live as conquerors, that they will graze their flock as far as the western sea. But we know that it does not matter. They will never visit us again, call our names again, and they are not our children anymore. How could they be? We have abandoned them, forced them out. Those who do not leave we all put to death, even when they beg and call us by the names they had for us as children. For they are no longer ours to hold, but Mamers' children, and their fate lies in his bloody hands. We know they will never love us again, and so we send our boys away.
"The breach is made! Charge, now!"
So we sit among our pastures and our flocks, and we tell ourselves we are not a warlike people. We tell ourselves that it was all for good, that we had to do it, that the God Mamers demanded it and truly it was a fine and holy thing. The speakers and the wisest men tell us it was for the sake of Safinum that they had to go, and that we should be happy. Then, as we watch the mountain passes brim with feathers and see them marching down the valley, we want to scream at them to stop, to turn back, to apologize to them, but we know they will not listen and cannot hear us as they disappear over the horizon.
Most of all, though, we are sorry for those who have to meet the boys we sent away.
"Burn the city."
Capeva, Campania
"Youngest men in front, oldest in the back!"
We are not a warlike people. We are shepherds, simple and plain. We live, we laugh, we love. We tell stories to our children and hope they will carry on our memory. Our wives weave and our daughters sing, and we are all content. We live in the uplands and no one bothers us. We are at at peace, in confederation with each other. The people are pious, and pray to the Gods, and some tell stories of an ocean cloth of the eastern coast as smooth as pools of water. And then, the time comes when we have to send our boys away.
"Hold Formation! Stay below the standard!"
It happens when the starving returns, and the children all go hungry. It may come in a year, or a decade, or a century, but it comes. The grazing lands become full with the people and their herds, and fights begin. The tribes of Safinum fall apart in jealousies. The peace ends and the blood runs down the mountains and the hills, and fear grips us. Men wound men, women wound women, children wound children. All fight against all. The conflict between tribes becomes too much, and so the decision is then made. We must send our boys away.
"Breakthrough, on the left! Now, Marcus, Now!"
We sanctify them and we tell them they are blessed by Mamers from their time of birth, we promise them riches and wealth, we honor them and tell them victory is their destiny. Our leaders, our heroes, our men who throw javelins like Gods, advise them of the best cities and the richest lands to take, the tactics and the strategy by which they will wage their wars of conquest. We watch as they fall in love but know they will never marry. We watch as they think up dreams of peaceful life and happy wives then remember they were born for war. We embrace them and tell them they will always be our children, but still we send our boys away.
"Do not brawl for the spoils! You are not dogs!"
We tell ourselves that they will vanquish all the lowlands and conquer all before them, that they will grow old and live as conquerors, that they will graze their flock as far as the western sea. But we know that it does not matter. They will never visit us again, call our names again, and they are not our children anymore. How could they be? We have abandoned them, forced them out. Those who do not leave we all put to death, even when they beg and call us by the names they had for us as children. For they are no longer ours to hold, but Mamers' children, and their fate lies in his bloody hands. We know they will never love us again, and so we send our boys away.
"The breach is made! Charge, now!"
So we sit among our pastures and our flocks, and we tell ourselves we are not a warlike people. We tell ourselves that it was all for good, that we had to do it, that the God Mamers demanded it and truly it was a fine and holy thing. The speakers and the wisest men tell us it was for the sake of Safinum that they had to go, and that we should be happy. Then, as we watch the mountain passes brim with feathers and see them marching down the valley, we want to scream at them to stop, to turn back, to apologize to them, but we know they will not listen and cannot hear us as they disappear over the horizon.
Most of all, though, we are sorry for those who have to meet the boys we sent away.
"Burn the city."
[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the
assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the
assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.
Goings on from around the Mediterranean, presented by Xenoparakletor Obander Eupraxis of the Demos Antipatria
OBANDER: Citizens, I bring news from Sicily. I have dispatched a number of emissaries to the cities of SIcily and provided them with the talents to pursue any available routes to collecting information (-30 talents). From this I have been able to build a series of options I will present to the assembly on our actions in Sicily before my departure. I am well aware, after all, that the situation in Sicily is so delicate, and so crucial, that it would not be right for myself to act alone. I can only act with the support of the assembly or else I could act improperly and without good counsel in decisions that could dedicate the very fate of Sicily, Italia, and Eretria Eskhata itself.
Aside from this news I come bearing happy tidings; the Tarentines are delighted that we have accepted their peace. Telesphoros and his peace party have won another election in Taras amid the planting of the trees of peace in our respective cities, along with the transfer of proxenoi, has done much to lay old hatreds to rest. The citizens of Lykai have surrendered to the Tarentines after a short siege and the founding families of the city will be expelled as we agreed, but only once Eretria Eskhata has won the war in the Adriatic. In the meantime, Taras will ensure their relative safety until such time as we have been victorious so that we may decide what to do with them in the confidence of peace, not the uncertainty of war.
This is also the year of the 89th Olympic Games. Eretria has done pitifully this year, without even a single silver medal, though this is blamed partly on the necessity of our war, with many of our greatest athletes needed at home.
Now I turn to news from abroad.
News from Hellas! Athenai's dominance from the previous year is being rapidly reversed. An Athenian attempt to seize Megara is vanquished, ending their incursions into the Megarid. An incursion into Boeotia, intending to cut the plain in two, has been thrown back at the Battle of Delium. Led by Hippokrates, the Athenians were meant to attack the Boeotians from two directions, but one prong led by the general Demosthenes landed too early and was forced to withdraw. Hippokrates withdrew as well, but was caught by the Thebans at Delium and was killed at the beginning of the bloody battle. The Thebans were said to have used according to some claims flamethrowers either at the battle or at the siege of the Athenian camp at Delium, though the news remains confused. Then, in the north, another critical loss has been delivered to Athenai, with the arrival of the Spartan general Brasidas and his army in the Chalkidike. Amphipolis, an Athenian colony and source of Thracian silver, has defected to him, and the general dispatched to force him out, Thucydides, came too late to save the city and has been exiled.
News from the West! Kimon Phileous has been re-elected xenologos of Thurii and thanks the people of Eretria for transferring Herakleia Lukania to its protection. The Congress of Gela approaches and all are watching. In Africa, Carthage has been delivered a series of defeats by the local Numidians, who have defeated the forces of her allies. It is now clear that Carthage must commit considerable resources to their subjugation, which is fine news for Syrakousai which wishes for no foreign distractions from Carthage to achieve its diplomatic victory over the Sikeliote League. In Campania, disaster. The Etruscan cities have fallen to the interior tribesmen, who have taken to calling themselves the Campani, an Oscan tribe. They are migrating further towards the coast and have arrived at the border of Hellene territory after delivering another terrible defeat against Kymai. As much as a fifth of Kymai's male population has been killed in The Battle of the Streams, where the Oscans trapped them against a river and a marsh and slaughtered those who tried to swim across. Many escaped only by luck of discovering a pathway of drier land in the marsh. Pompeii has fallen to the Oscans and Kymai is now under siege, though the city has strong, stout walls and can supply itself by sea. Neapolis remains unscatched, with the main Oscan focus on the city. The countryside has been ravaged and overrun entirely outside these cities, and most farmers have fled behind the walls or been captured. It is truly a terrible time for the Campanian Hellenes.
News from the North! A sudden turnaround in Odrysian Thrake, for King Sitalces who united the tribes of the region has perished fighting the Triballi. His son Seuthes I has succeeded him and may yet keep the confederation together, but it will be a difficult time, and surely he will prefer to turn inward than to take the risks that killed his father. So ends the participation of the Odrysians in the great war of Hellas. In the east, a new king has been elected master of all Persia, the Mede Darius II Nothu, having triumphed over his rivals through treachery and open combat.
Goings on from within the city, presented by Proboulos Theron Archippos of the Demos Exoria
THERON: Citizens! We have achieved something truly mighty this year. The Hill of the Divine Marriage, the object of years of construction, has finally been completed! It rises above the city now, a platform of the Gods, closer to the heavens that we have ever been before. Upon its mighty top are the greatly expanded Temple of the Divine Marriage, the new Arkadion, A fine Temple to Zeus Olympios, and finally a monument to our Artemis, the Artemis Amarysia, who returns to us from old Eretria after all these years. This goddess, who had protected our city in times of war and peace and preserved our traditions in the olden times, which we had left behind, has come back to us, and this is her abode, and a grove besides. Truly, the Gods should be thankful for this. And too, there is now a calendar to celebrate all the Gods that does not shift from year to year, but stays affixed, save for the addition of days every few years that can balance out any growing discrepancy. The end of the old confusion is upon us, and in its place, harmony on heaven and on earth. Our finances will soon return to surplus, though we shall receive one more bit of grief in the Illyrian expedition being organized this year by our brave strategoi, which shall surely cost us, but Nike willing, only for this year!
It is pleasing, too, that we celebrate the Gods by dedicating awards in their image. The painted stone of Athene, the olive wreath of Apollon...these are more than simple baubles. They are an acknowledgement by the citizenry that extraordinary service matters, that it is something to be sanctified and celebrated. With this ends a chapter in Eretrian history in which the Gods were not properly sanctified or celebrated, and in its place a chapter in which the Gods have been given their proper due. Let us all celebrate them, and look upon the monuments that we have built!
As always, we give thanks to the citizens who spoke long in the assembly. The following citizens are thanked and given trophies of drachmas for their participation: Harmokydes, son of Isandros, Dareios the One-Named who is asked not to insult the concept of children before the assembly, Phokion the Victorious whose motion passed through the assembly, Kalyx the animal breeder, Leukos the hater of graffiti, Nereos son of Theodotos, Methodios son of Pelagios who returns to us from the Aegean, Skantarios who gave fine effort in arguing with Phokion, Erastos son of Nikedemos who has recovered from his illness, Alkaios son of Kleitos who spoke well, Glaukommes son of Perixeontes who defended the sanctity of the assembly, Kipekos the wide-speaking, Alkibiades son of Kyros, not Kyros Gennadios but Kyros Antipater, but not the elder Antipater...continuing on. Arktos Arkadios who is asked not to fall over in excitement over the concept of the Conquest of the Seain the midst of the assembly, Kleon son of Aristophanes, Heliodoros who became deeply confused in the argument about festivals, Eutychion son of Eutychos, Theopilos the elder and the younger, who argued with one another in a friendly spirit, Kleon who returned in grief from ill-fated Kymai, Kaidos the Messenger, Isigas son of Euplastos, Hermesdora Eretriazenis who has fully recovered from their grievous injury of a sprained ankle, and Iskander Xanatos.
We would normally ask citizens not to devote such strenuous debate to the subject of wives, who would be better left alone from the mob of the assembly's constant brawling, but as this debate was a matter of a women's festival in the form of the Courting of Ploutos and the Return of Persephone, the proboulos instead thanks the citizens for the vigor of their debate, as we are sure their wives will as well, so strong was the effort of Eretrian men in ensuring that the truest expression of womanly virtue was chosen. In final words, the newest play by the playwright and friend of all the assembly Timanthes Thymoetes will air next week in the Theater of the Thunderbird. Citizens who wish to come and enjoy the Reconciliation of Zeus and Hera can expect a stirring and amusing tale of comedy and romance that has already won first place in the festival of Artemis & Apollon's theatrical contest. In celebration of the assembly's vigor in its argumentation for the festival of women, the boule will personally fund the play so that women can gain entry into the theater without charge. Spread the word to wives and daughters!
Colonial Ambitions
As Eretria planned for the Congress at Gela and the Illyrian Expedition, a third matter weighed on its mind, put forward by the Drakonia-controlled Popular Tribunal, in charge of maintaining the bounds of citizenship. In Eretria, minor offices such as this were able to speak without gaining the required number of lifters for their rock, and were reserved special rights to present their ideas and arguments before the assembly without needing the acceptance of the proboulos or the assembly beforehand, so long as their proposals were legal. Korydon Morys, his strange name an artifact of the fact that he was a Thracian slave freed on the city's arrival who had become one of the city's foremost ship captains, had been appointed speaker for the tribunal, and now spoke on behalf of it, and for the Demos Drakonia.
This was the vaunted colonial reform. It had been the brainchild of Epiktetos Linos, but had been provoked by the growing experimentation with citizenship first embarked on by the Sicilians. Although the bounds of citizenship obviously remained tightly guarded in Eretria, why should this be so in the colonies? Thurii had been founded as a collection of twelve different tribes of Hellenes, a true Pan-Hellenic settlement with ambitions to match, even if it had been promoted by the Athenians in particular. There was a sense of newness in the air, that the political bounds of the world were not set in stone, that had also been inspired by the changing of the demoi so frequently. New ideas were being promoted and pushed to the fore all across the Mediterranean, while old ideas stagnated and died. But this was also an age of competition, and brutality, and war, and these laws were proposed not only for the sake of newness but practicality.
After all, allowing colonial citizenship for a set period of twenty-four years would do two things; in the first place, it would weaken the clear bonds of citizenship in the colonies until such time that it was so tied to Eretria that the colonists could not imagine themselves being part of any other domain. When citizenship was "locked in" at the twenty-fourth year, a mixed amalgam of citizens would form an identity based not on their own unique circumstances, but on their origin: As colonists of Epulia. Once Eretria Eskhata had established itself, after all, it was jealous of any and all imitators who might attempt supplant it in the Adriatic, and there was a forward-thinking belief that in the future Eretria should never have to fear anything from these colonies it is founding and tying politically to itself. There was much objection and unhappiness to this proposal from Ankon, but the colony was overruled by the other Epulians, who saw this as an opportunity for themselves as much as Eretria.
Still, there was some division in the assembly, and the tribunal, on what exactly some aspects of that colonial law should be like. For example, the selection of colonists was a contentious issue. Some wanted it restricted to lotteries of the poor and the landless to prevent a flood of labor from fleeing Eretria and weakening the city, while other argued that not only was it ideal to allow these families to migrate and gain their own land and citizenship of their own will, but it would strengthen the city by removing those elements who were most destitute and rebellious by allowing them the ability to find a new life in Ankon, Issa, or any other colony to be founded in the future. Another example of division was on central control; the colony of Ankon had been founded by a private citizen who had collected three hundred of his fellows to start a new life, but it was a fear in the city that allowing such haphazard colonization could repeat the "Mistake of Bare", which was the city's original confused torching of the city that it stood on, which some more sentimental citizens still regretted. Regardless of the morality of the act, though, it would create issues with the barbaroi of the Adriatic, who might see Eretria as insatiable in its lust for land and thus a threat. Strictly controlling colonization and tying it to negotiations with the locals would discourage citizens, however, who might wish to make their stamp on history by founding their own colonies, and reduce enthusiasm for colonization as a whole.
Finally, there was a proposal given by Pylonos, strategos of the Epulian League, who suggested it might be better to cleave off Ankon and the other new colonies from the Epulian League. The argument was that although the new colonies would surely be a collective effort not just of Eretria but the whole Epulian League, with their support and population also allowed to settle in these new colonies, they were not of the same tier as the "proper" Epulians. They were, after all, much further away, could not commit troops to the defense of Epulia, and necessarily commercially oriented rather than focused upon land and the defense against the interior barbaroi. Instead, they would be much more concerned with the northern Italic tribes, the Illyrians, and maintaing clear lines of trade with Eretria, whom they relied on. Therefore, it would better if they were a separate district of the Epulian League, the Adriatic Ring, also opening it up to a more general league of all of the Hellenes in the Adriatic, and having a separate synedrion, meeting place, and laws which gave more primacy to Eretria.
Of course, there was pushback by Ankon, which argued that although it might be willing to take on naval obligations rather than fiduciary ones, creating a separate ring with weaker powers would disincentivize the joining of other Adriatic colonies, and that this was a cynical ploy by Pylonos for the old cities of Epulia to maintain their own grip on power in the Epulian League, having already supported Eretria undermining citizenship in Ankon. To some in Eretria, however, this accusatory tone simply confirmed for them that stronger control of the colonies, and therefore the Eretrian trading network, was necessary if it was to be maintained. A colonial empire, after all, had only been tried by the Athenians to the same extent, but they had relied more on harsh treatment and settling Athenians at key points and garrisons, than on mass colonization of an entire region. Would a lighter hand be needed, or a stronger grip required?
The matter of all these issues fell to the ekklesia.
How should colonists be selected from among the citizens of Eretria?
[] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
[] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
How should the city plan colonization and organize the founding of new colonies?
[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
[] [Colonization] Allow any citizen organize a colonial expedition with Assembly approval [Worse relations with local powers, more chance of citizen-led colonies].
How should the political control of new colonies be organized?
[] [League] Create a separate ring of the Epulian League with naval and trade obligations [New district of Epulian League with stronger Eretrian control].
[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
The Congress of Gela
The congress is here. After years of anticipation the impending diplomatic confirmation of Syrakousai's victory over the Sikeliote League is finally at hand. But what is at stake is more than a few stadia of territory between the two powers, no matter how much either insists so. Instead, the congress is a challenge to the entire balance of power in Sicily, for as it began to approach the representative of Syrakousai, Hermokrates, developed an ingenious plan with a simple slogan: Sicilia for Sicilians. What was once a dispute between two near-equal Sicilian powers was about to be transformed into a congress on the path that Sicily would take in the future, for Hermokrates sought to convince the congress not only that Syrakousai had rightfully gained territory, and more importantly the prestige of defeating its rival, but that the seeking of any alliance with a non-Sicilian power would be subject to punishment from the rest of Sicily. Alliances would be broken, pacts severed, and emissaries sent home. Syrakousai, whose allies of Gela and Akragas were both Sicilian, would hold the balance of power, and the remaining states of Sicily in the form of Rhegion, Himera, Selinous and the Sikeliote League would be unable or unwilling to oppose them.
Opposing them were the protectors of the status quo: Rhegion, Himera, and the Sikeliote League. Ever since the final defeat of Hiero and his pan-Sicilian tyranny, and the dissolution of Syrakousai's hegemony over the entire Hellene portion of the island, these three powers had been most intent to ensure there was never another Hiero. Combined with Selinous and the powers aligned with Syrakousai, these seven powers formed the Sicilian Heptarchy, who agreed to be bound by the law of the common peace which had maintained stability in Sicily since his death. All were afraid of Syrakousai, but all were also afraid of war and Carthage, and in the intervening years Syrakousai had gained territory and prestige at the expense of its neighbors. Eretrian intervention had prevented their further expansion, but also enraged them, and given new arguments to those who suggest that outside powers would simply prefer to keep Sicily weak and divided to their benefit, and now a swan song was rising of a united Sicily against the Mediterranean, with Syrakousai directing the chorus.
Now, everything hinges on the victory of Syrakousai and its resolution at the Congress. Eretria now has a unique and powerful role in deciding the outcome, as its reserves of talents and its diplomatic acumen is unmatched among the western Greeks. Many Sicilians outside of Syrakousai still respect the Eretrians due to the role of their hero Herodion in the liberation of Sicily and the end of both Gelo and Hiero. In contrast to some of the Italians, much neglected by Eretria, the Demos Drakonia had sustained strong ties to Sicilia through its alliance to the Sikeliote League. Leading it now was the strategos Gorgias of Leontini, a brilliant democrat and the best orator that the western Greeks had to offer, unparalleled in popularity in Sicily as a statesman. However, his star had been fading for years, with growing opposition to his policies of challenging Syrakousai from a faction who preferred peace and cooperation and who wanted to put old hatreds to rest. Gorgias now depended on Eretrian aid and diplomatic support to tip the scales in his favor. But in case that didn't work, to Obander's horror, he had another ace up his sleeve.
The Athenian Alkibiades, a talented young man who had spent some time in the west as a young boy, had been invited to Katane, the capital of the Sikeliote League. It was there he met with emissaries of Eretria who panicked at the realization that an Athenian was at the congress, as well as Gorgias. Gorgias explained that he felt that Eretria, by going into war with Taras so suddenly, had left the door open for Syrakousai to attack. Syrakousai had been following a clever diplomatic strategy in years before of letting the Sikeliotes attack and then conceding, building up sympathy as an aggrieved party that was no longer the pillar of Sicily. It was all an act, though, and Syrakousai showed its true strength when it defeated the Sikeliotes in battle and threw them out of a sacred grove before calling the congress. With the Sikeliotes isolated, Gorgias had no choice but to invite Athenai.
The Athenian plan was to leverage the fear of their intervention to convince Syrakousai to step down and sway either Gela or Selinous, who were on the edge. The Athenians, despite their defeats this year, were much feared and could dispatch as many as 2,000 soldiers and 20 triremes to Sicily, along with some of their much-feared marines who had a reputation greater than Spartan hoplites after their defeat at Sphakteria. The mere presence of Athenai could bring Syrakousai to heel. On the other hand, though, was the danger of the opposite; that by participating Athenai would capsize the entire congress by giving truth to Syrakousai's claim that outside powers were intervening in Sicilian politics, and thus flip Selinous and Gela against the Sikeliotes. In both directions there were dangers; sending the Athenians away would weaken Eretria's hand and alienate that power, but allowing them to stay could cause a massive conflagration at the congress and potentially even cause a war.
On top of that, of course, Obander had limited time. With the Illyrian expedition needing his services in wrangling allies from among the northern Adriatic peoples, and the necessity of rallying the Sikeliote League and its allies to ensure Eretria did not lose the support of Himera or Rhegion even before Obander went to Gela and Selinous, he needed to choose to focus on one or the other. Selinous was a great trading city, and the gateway to the west, but it was also mercurial and mercantile and was shifting towards Syrakousai simply because it felt that it better suited its interests against a powerful Carthage. On the other hand, Gela was the sacred center of Sicily, where the first unification had begun and a center of culture, poetry and art on the island, much respected by the other cities. It had normally been neutral but had shifted only recently to Syrakousai, but its leadership was not entirely pro-Syrakousai and might still be swayed if they are convinced there is more advantage in maintaining a balance of power.
Finally, of course, Eretria Eskhata could convince the Sikeliotes to steer the congress in a specific direction. The goal of this was not only to provide a distraction from the compelling narrative of Sicily for Sicilians, but to consume the energy of the Sicilian powers for as long as possible. This was to an extent deeply cynical on the part of Eupraxis, but there was a very real awareness that Eretria could not maintain this balancing act forever, especially with how badly Syrakousai despised it; either Syrakousai would accept its play as a power among others, or it would be destroyed. The alternative option would be a unification under it that would place Eretria in grave danger, and the best way to avoid that would be to either spend the energy of Sicily in a war against Carthage or the natives, or else encourage enough cooperation and communication between the powers that a war would become impossible as there were no solid blocs and all the powers worked together to prevent any other from growing too powerful.
The details of the options for keeping the Sicilian peace were somewhat more complicated. Eretria could, for example, encourage a war against the Sicels. Although the Elymians and Siculi were protected by their close relationship with Carthage, making any attack on them perilously risky given their propensity to call Carthage into their wars with the Sicilian Hellenes, the Sicels had no such protection and occupied some of the wealthiest parts of Sicily that had not yet been subjugated by the Hellenes. Best of all for this option, Syrakousai would be placed on a disadvantage due to their relatively small border with the Sicels and the possibility that Gela and the Sikeliotes could cut them off from further gains in the interior. Although it could lose a valuable future native ally against Syrakousai, it could also significantly increase the power of the Sikeliotes and distract the entirety of eastern Sicily for some time.
The second option would be provoking a war with Carthage. Distracted by the Numidians and facing a coalition of Hellene Sicilian cities, the Carthaginians could be overwhelmed and ejected out of Sicily. Carthage, after all, for all its friendship with Eretria was fairly jealous with its trading network and tended to restrict trade in Western Sicily to a few key ports, preventing access to much of the western Mediterranean through its imposing naval fortress of Motya. On the more cynical side, if the Carthaginians were victorious, Sicily would surely be weakened, and this would significantly reduce the amount of resources a unified island could bring to bear against the Eretrians. However, of course, this raised some concerns, such as potential Carthaginian retribution against Eretria in the long run, the loss of good relations with Carthage, and that although the Sikeliotes would be fairly insulated against Carthage compared to some of the western cities, so would Syrakousai. Selinous, bearing the brunt of a Carthaginian attack and the loss of any trade relations, would be the most negative about this option.
The final option was more radical, though favored by Obander Eupraxis who disliked the chaos of war, even if he believed in its necessity. In this option, a new Sicilian Congress or League (a "league of leagues") would be formed with limited powers. Most of its powers would be symbolic, with its ceremonial and cultural functions centered around Gela. The new congress would, however, have the power to adjudicate disputes between the cities, and make war between them illegal. Instead, disputes would be solved not through warfare but through negotiation and a vote by a majority of the cities, held through a synedrion or congress in the city of Gela that would meet yearly. There were both advantages and disadvantages to this approach. In the first place, this approach, if successful, could permanently end Syrakousai's attempts to conquer and subjugate the rest of Sicily, but if it was too successful might instead create a situation where a new unified Sicily rises in its place, though far more sympathetic to Eretria. And of course, it could also become a vehicle for Syrakousai's hegemony, though for the moment it would significantly check their impulses, revert their conquests of the Sikeliote League, and force them into an unsatisfactory status quo. The Congress would have no other powers beyond keeping the peace, and thus could not become a unified state without severe difficulty (and indeed, some suggested making such changes subject to veto by any Sicilian).
All three options had their risks in the case of failure. If the Sicilian cities could not be convinced of these options, it could lead to the accession of Syrakousai to first power on the island, rather than the disgruntled first among equals it had held before. And, of course, it would lead to the severing of alliance between the Sikeliote League and Eretria, as a majority of the Sicilian cities would vote to cut foreign alliances and eject emissaries of foreign powers who sought alliance or intervention in their wars.
The choice was left to the assembly, as Eupraxis wisely knew he alone did know have the answer to these questions.
What should be done about the presence of Athenai at the Congress of Gela?
[] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
Which Sicilian polis should Obander be focused on pushing towards neutrality before the conference?
[] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
In order to ensure Sicily does not erupt into war again for a longer period of time, what should be done to maintain a Sicilian peace?
[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to chase Carthage from the Island! Carthage, with the claims of its mysterious gold and its wide-ranging trade empire, is the greatest threat to Sicily. Better to strike now when Carthage is distracted, and more cynically, to spend a generation's lives against another power [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will come into conflict with the Carthaginians].
[] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
The Liburnian Expedition
Illyrian piracy was not a natural phenomenon. The sleek pentekontors and their cutthroat crews did not emerge fully formed from the Adriatic Sea. Instead, they had their havens and their villages and their coves, and they could be defeated. To do so, however, would be a significant effort in seapower. For decades, Eretria Eskhata had been willing to expend it, but only sparingly; even during the time of Drakonid dominance at sea, there were not expensive continious raids on the Liburnians, but a punitive expedition once every decade. This treatment did not engender any goodwill among the Liburni or their Illyrian neighbors, the Iapodes, who found that Eretrian expeditions often had a whiff of piracy to them as well, simply directed back at the Illyrians. An unpleasant kind of hatred developed between the two, with the Eretrians seeing the Liburni and Iapodes as little more than scum and treating their villages accordingly, and the Liburni and Iapodes inflicting elaborate tortures on the Eretrians when they captured their ships or found washed up crew after wrecks.
For all of this, Eretrian efforts had kept the Adriatic relatively safe for seafarers for decades. Sudden political dynamism, however, shifted Eretrian attention away from the Adriatic for a time, and the Liburni once again began to raid. Their loose confederation was mostly defensive and entirely built around defending them from the Eretrians; in the past it had failed. Now, with their alliance with the Iapodes, they knew they still stood a slim chance against Eretrian seapower, but still hoped it would be enough to defend their lands and their people. On the other hand, of course, there were far less pleasant motives than mere patriotic defense at play; the Liburni and Iapodes had made large amounts of money from raiding and piracy, and did not intend to stop unless they were forced to. And for all the high-handed retribution delivered by Eretria, the other powers of the region, from the Dalmatae to the Etruscans, had little patience for having their sailors beheaded at sea by pirates hunting for treasure among their fishing boats.
In the end, after pressure from the assembly, it was finally decided that Eretria should go to war. It would be a swift war, all agreed; the Liburni could rebuild their ships quickly, but they could not sustain themselves at sea for very long, and had little recourse to Eretrian triremes. On the other hand, there remained dangers; the coves and islands of the area are treacherous and could lead to traps for the larger triremes, and the problem remained that the Liburni and Iapodes would not stop unless they were forced to stop, which meant a more aggressive campaign into those treacherous islands. Military thought among the Eretrian strategoi fell into two camps; those who believed in a more deliberate and defensive strategy focused around securing the southern Liburnian islands, and those who wanted to plunge headlong into the main region of Liburnia and force them to end their piracy once and for all. The Liburni themselves had few true warships, relying mostly on pentekontors and ambushes in narrow inlets in order to oversome superior foes, and an unknown number of these one-row ships, from fifty to as much as ninety by some guesses.
In the defense camp fell Demos Antipatria and Demos Drakonia. Demos Antipatria's strategos, Theron Zosimos, did not stand for election because he felt outclassed at sea; instead, he offered his services as a superb commander of ground forces and marines to whichever party won, an act of much modesty which gave him distinction among the people in this new age of politics where principle was favored over faction. Instead, the competition came between two unquestionable qualified candidates. On the one hand was the careful and strategic Epiktetos Linos, who had won Eretria the battles against Taras. On the other was Xanthos Irenaeos, who had been an extraordinary naval commander in the same war. Both had experience at sea and both were men of quality. The question thus became whose strategy should be used.
Epiktetos Linos argued that to go too far into Liburnian territory was dangerous. Instead, leveraging allies on either land or sea, Eretrian forces should land on the island of Issa and secure the other islands around, root out the local havens and coves, build forts to defend them, and then hold them against any Liburnian attack while using raids to lure the Liburni and Iapodes out to sea. This was a safer strategy, he contended, and one less likely to end in folly, but it depended on the Liburni engaging the Eretrian forces in order to have a decisive victory, and it put a great deal of weight on allies to support the Eretrians on land or sea and force the Liburni to confront Eretria Eskhata or lose the war.
Xanthos Irenaeos, as was his wont as a daring naval commander, advocated it would be better if Eretria were to strike deep into their territory. The reasons were threefold. First, Eretria could better support its allies, who were all approaching either from the land into Liburnian territory or from the northern end of their archipelago. Second, Eretria could deliver a true crushing blow to the Liburni, win great glory and loot for itself, and finally force the Liburni not only to concede defeat but to cease piracy altogether. Third, Eretria could destroy the seapower of the Liburni and Iapodes and spread terror among the islands in a way it had never done before, showing all of the Adriatic its prowess in battle and its ability to project force to every end of the Adriatic, crucial for convincing both allies and the Hellene outposts of the southern Adriatic that it was the true hegemon of the region.
And, of course, on top of all of this arguing was the necessity of allies. There were a number of allies Eretria could court, but its strategy could not rely on all of them, and Obander had limited time. He would need to go to these barbaroi and explain to them the value of cooperation and supporting Eretria. Obander explained that he would take Mnemnon Keylonos with him, as his mythic status as a kind of "barbaroi whisperer" had reached unreasonable heights in the city, even if Mnemnon had never sailed in his life. In reality, however, Mnemnon could only be an aid to smooth out the worst wrinkles and give Obander advice, and the success or failure to reach out to Adriatic allies were still dependent on Obander's own attributes and skills as an old, wise statesman.
The matter of war and allies was put before the ekklesia.
Strategy: The Wooden Wall
- Supporters: Demos Antipatria, Demos Drakonia
- Goal: Establish firm control of the archipelago around Issa and defeat any Liburnian response.
- Specifics:5. If even this is not enough to force the Liburni to sue for peace, use the established fort at Issa as a base of operations for the winter and establish a colony there, then use this well-developed infrastructure to run smaller raiding expeditions next year while keeping a hand open for a general peace.
1. Cross the Adriatic and land on Issa and the Southern Liburnian Islands, seizing control and establishing a harbor and a fort as a base of operations in the regions should the campaign need to cross into next year.
2. Force the Liburnians to attack by utilizing allies to press them on land and sea, taking local communities hostage, and raiding their coast with squads of three triremes. Make it so that the fort at Issa is a critical threat to their continued safety.
3. When the Liburni attack, defeat them in a naval battle and sue for peace, seizing the southern Islands.
4. If the Liburni do not attack, depart from Issa and land along the islands near the capital, raiding and reaving until they are forced into a naval battle for the sake of their pride and their crops with the harvest approaching. Allies would be utilized to raid on the mainland or other islands. - Eretrian Forces: 18 Triremes, 500 Hieros Ekdromoi, 200 Psilloi.
Allied Forces: Dependent on decisions. - Campaign Length: 5 Months.
- Cost: 90 talents (Naval Upkeep), 5.1 talents (Army Upkeep), 15 talents (Island Forts) = 110.1 talents.
Strategy: The Iron Ram
- Supporters: Demos Exoria
- Goal: Plunge deep into the islands of the northern Adriatic and destroy Liburnian seapower once and for all.
- Specifics:
1. Cross the Adriatic.
2. Destroy pirate forces and villages among the Southern Liburni, targeting major villages and relying on veterans of past expeditions for information. This area is well-known to Eretria and should be an easy target.
3. Begin a general raiding expedition that climbs up from Issa and the southern Liburnian islands all the way to the capital of Iadar and beyond, targeting settlements, burning ports, destroying navies in their harbors, until the Liburnians concede defeat. Plunge deep even into the islands where many pirates have their coves and havens.
4. Allies would support this general offensive from the sea or on land.
5. In order to avoid being caught and ambushed Triremes will divide into groups of three or four for smaller raids and gather up again for larger ones, spreading terror throughout the islands and breaking Liburnian seapower which is reliant on their fishermen and their pentekontors.
6. Sue for peace with the Liburni,seizing the southern Islands and establishing the colony of Issa as an anchor in the region and an operating post for future operations. - Eretrian Forces: 18 Triremes, 500 Hieros Ekdromoi, 300 Hoplites, 200 Psilloi.
- Allied Forces: Dependent on decisions.
- Campaign Length: 3 months.
- Cost: 54 talents (Naval Upkeep), 7.7 talents (Army Upkeep) = 61.7 talents.
[] [Allies] The Northern Etruscans. Wealthy and powerful, an alliance made with the northern Etruscans will draw Eretria into their politics, with its advantages and disadvantages. The northern Etruscans can commit a small force of triremes and pay for part of the Eretrian expedition, considering their fight against piracy a service [If successful, better relations with Northern Etruscans, +40 talents, 5 allied triremes].
[] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
[] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].
To which Strategos should Eretria entrust the Liburnian expedition to?
[] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4
Known for his friendliness which he uses to lead men to battle, as well as his courage. A man of glory who won recognition as an Ekdromos defeating Illyrians in battle as well as Messapii as a young man. Known for being freewheeling in his tactics, genial and inspiring in battle, and innovative in his tactics. The naval commander during the war against Taras with impressive victories against the
[] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 6, Friendliness 4, Courage 2, Magnificence 6, Wisdom 2
A man of much moderation, known in the past for his leadership against pirates in the Adriatic. Wealthy and kind, he has devoted much of his life to assisting the Eretrian poor rather than building great works. He is known for his preference for avoiding battle in favor of more methodical and careful tactics, but what was once assumed for cowardice has become heroism after his success in the Tarentine War.
Note: This map is for geographic reference and does not reflect border changes between 349 OL-353 OL. The map is updated every four turns, so the next update is 353 OL (423 BCE). Thanks to you completing a great work this turn, you will also receive an updated map of the city of Eretria Eskhata, and a little something extra, next turn.
When voting, please copy out vote text in its entirety in order to preserve the coherency of the vote. That includes the word with the vote brackets.
No plan votes; if you want to vote for someone else's plan in its entirety, copy and paste their votes. (This was changed following some thought from the original plan vote decision).
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
This is alot to digest. I expect that I will be name voting for someone else that can put more thought into this.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Now that the Olympics have come up, I'd just like to ask: are the Heraean Games still a thing?
A minor correction, but Syrakousai is listed as opposing Syrakousai.
- Location
- USA
A lot of tough choices.... and Athens at the conference hmm... ideally I would like to set the Sicilians onto a path to a greater congress with the Italoite and Epulian Hellens so that all of us can met and talk and work with one another as we are caught between Carthage to the south, Samnite, Romans and other Italoite peoples to the North and Persia and Athens-Sparta conflict to the East.
For sicily:
[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
[] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
I actually wish I could combo these two, one to get them to work with each other and the also to reduce the allies Carthage can send against our fellow Hellens.
For colonization:
[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
We have our own experience of how much effort can be consumed with fighting locals and we are in an area with many other Hellenic cities that we could ally with. Those further north in the adriatic are more likely to be isolated. Furthermore friendly relations with the locals provides a land based shield against the migration of others that would bring war in. Control of the sea allowing trade to flow from these colonies while the colonies are protected on land first by the locals being between them and hostiles and then the forces of the colonies themselves.
In addition we see the value that trade with the locals can bring with just the cattle drive, let us make friends of the locals so that they trade with us as well as giving us markets for goods of Hellens.
[] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].
We rule the see, let us instead bring forth a land based power to work in conjunction with as well as bettering relations when we place colonies in the region- they would make good local allies and trade partners in the long term.
As for strategos and strategy both have good points so I am unsure.
For sicily:
[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
[] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
I actually wish I could combo these two, one to get them to work with each other and the also to reduce the allies Carthage can send against our fellow Hellens.
For colonization:
[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
We have our own experience of how much effort can be consumed with fighting locals and we are in an area with many other Hellenic cities that we could ally with. Those further north in the adriatic are more likely to be isolated. Furthermore friendly relations with the locals provides a land based shield against the migration of others that would bring war in. Control of the sea allowing trade to flow from these colonies while the colonies are protected on land first by the locals being between them and hostiles and then the forces of the colonies themselves.
In addition we see the value that trade with the locals can bring with just the cattle drive, let us make friends of the locals so that they trade with us as well as giving us markets for goods of Hellens.
[] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].
We rule the see, let us instead bring forth a land based power to work in conjunction with as well as bettering relations when we place colonies in the region- they would make good local allies and trade partners in the long term.
As for strategos and strategy both have good points so I am unsure.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Of course.
Thanks, fixed.
- Location
- USA
For ease of reference:
Colonization-
[] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
[] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
[] [Colonization] Allow any citizen organize a colonial expedition with Assembly approval [Worse relations with local powers, more chance of citizen-led colonies].
[] [League] Create a separate ring of the Epulian League with naval and trade obligations [New district of Epulian League with stronger Eretrian control].
[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
Conference-
[] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
[] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to chase Carthage from the Island! Carthage, with the claims of its mysterious gold and its wide-ranging trade empire, is the greatest threat to Sicily. Better to strike now when Carthage is distracted, and more cynically, to spend a generation's lives against another power [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will come into conflict with the Carthaginians].
[] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
Anti-Pirate expedition-
[] [Allies] The Northern Etruscans. Wealthy and powerful, an alliance made with the northern Etruscans will draw Eretria into their politics, with its advantages and disadvantages. The northern Etruscans can commit a small force of triremes and pay for part of the Eretrian expedition, considering their fight against piracy a service [If successful, better relations with Northern Etruscans, +40 talents, 5 allied triremes].
[] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
[] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].
[] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4
Known for his friendliness which he uses to lead men to battle, as well as his courage. A man of glory who won recognition as an Ekdromos defeating Illyrians in battle as well as Messapii as a young man. Known for being freewheeling in his tactics, genial and inspiring in battle, and innovative in his tactics. The naval commander during the war against Taras with impressive victories against the
[] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 6, Friendliness 4, Courage 2, Magnificence 6, Wisdom 2
A man of much moderation, known in the past for his leadership against pirates in the Adriatic. Wealthy and kind, he has devoted much of his life to assisting the Eretrian poor rather than building great works. He is known for his preference for avoiding battle in favor of more methodical and careful tactics, but what was once assumed for cowardice has become heroism after his success in the Tarentine War.
Colonization-
[] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
[] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
[] [Colonization] Allow any citizen organize a colonial expedition with Assembly approval [Worse relations with local powers, more chance of citizen-led colonies].
[] [League] Create a separate ring of the Epulian League with naval and trade obligations [New district of Epulian League with stronger Eretrian control].
[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
Conference-
[] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
[] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to chase Carthage from the Island! Carthage, with the claims of its mysterious gold and its wide-ranging trade empire, is the greatest threat to Sicily. Better to strike now when Carthage is distracted, and more cynically, to spend a generation's lives against another power [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will come into conflict with the Carthaginians].
[] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
Anti-Pirate expedition-
[] [Allies] The Northern Etruscans. Wealthy and powerful, an alliance made with the northern Etruscans will draw Eretria into their politics, with its advantages and disadvantages. The northern Etruscans can commit a small force of triremes and pay for part of the Eretrian expedition, considering their fight against piracy a service [If successful, better relations with Northern Etruscans, +40 talents, 5 allied triremes].
[] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
[] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].
[] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4
Known for his friendliness which he uses to lead men to battle, as well as his courage. A man of glory who won recognition as an Ekdromos defeating Illyrians in battle as well as Messapii as a young man. Known for being freewheeling in his tactics, genial and inspiring in battle, and innovative in his tactics. The naval commander during the war against Taras with impressive victories against the
[] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 6, Friendliness 4, Courage 2, Magnificence 6, Wisdom 2
A man of much moderation, known in the past for his leadership against pirates in the Adriatic. Wealthy and kind, he has devoted much of his life to assisting the Eretrian poor rather than building great works. He is known for his preference for avoiding battle in favor of more methodical and careful tactics, but what was once assumed for cowardice has become heroism after his success in the Tarentine War.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
One thing I will say is I'm definitely going to reduce the number of things I'm juggling per year in the future. It's definitely fun, but it's also way too much stuff to handle while I'm working on actual work. This turn was fucking crazy.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Do Eretrian Women participate, and does Eretria have something similar?
- Location
- USA
This does feel like it would be one of the busier years, pirate mission, colonization policy for the future and a major conference? Hopefully future years will be a little less packed.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Eretrian women don't really participate, no. I'm not sure the games are very popular with Ionians.
I think it was partly an issue of a lot of big policies for each deme. I kind of over-packed it for the four year cycle this time; next time I'll probably cut it down.
@Cetashwayo This is a great turn. I always like your introductions. All the other discussion is about the decisions so I just wanted to point out how evocative the intros are.
The decisions this turn are great(/brutal)! There is not a single one where I feel certain about the correct path. This is how it should be. I'll probably wait a day before I vote on anything here.
The decisions this turn are great(/brutal)! There is not a single one where I feel certain about the correct path. This is how it should be. I'll probably wait a day before I vote on anything here.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Thank you, I appreciate it. I think I've gotten better at them as I practice the format. It's my favorite way of adding heart and pathos to the game, along with the proboulos' listing of all the players who spoke and the goofy hijinks therein.
However, I will say they've been uniformly grim, so rest assured that next year's will be a bit nicer!
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I mean, it IS a grim world we live in.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Do recall that this is where we are sending Obander. He is a great diplomat who can juggle the snake pits that are Hellenic Politics due to his reputation and aura as a virtuous Greek, and his great mastery of philosophy. But even with Memmon, he isnt the best at dealing with Barbaroi and of the potential allies the Dalmatae are the least Hellenized.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
But the most useful, especially if we want to pursue intensive colonization.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Mmm.
I see broadly two approaches that might work, roughly the "Cynical" and the "Idealistic" approach.
The first would take Athenian aid, focus on flipping Selinous as a mercantile city where Athenian silver and perhaps inducements of future trade and wealth will go over comparatively well, and steer the Congress toward taking on Carthage. I feel fairly confident this would work, but there are a couple of risks. First is that Sicily is biting off more than it can chew and we unleash an apocalyptic struggle that depopulates much of the Hellene portions of the island and leaves Syracuse lord over the ruins. The second risk is that it's too successful and the Sicilian League coheres into a real block in control over the island's coast and under Syracusan domination thanks to Syracuse's leading role in a war. Also it's kind of ugly to turn on Carthage that way, though if Athens gets involved in the war having the Athenians and Carthage going at it as the Peace of Nicias is (presumably) signed next year would be an interesting off-ramp from IRL history.
The second is to send the Athenians away, try to sway Gela as the moral and cultural center of Sicily, and push for the Common Peace based on improved communication and cooperation. This too has issues. We should definitely not incur Athenian displeasure lightly, and their talents might talk more persuasively than Obander's rhetoric. If Sicily is closed to Athenian intervention we might find them poking around in Epulia instead and that would be a true disaster. Also the Peace might again work too well and see Syracuse come to head an increasingly unified Sicily without even having to wage a brutal war to do so. This is probably on the whole more of a gamble, though the ideal outcome of a Common Peace that leaves Sicily united against outside aggression but balancing itself enough not to let Syracuse dominate is the best one from Eretrian perspectives. We'd just still have to deal with the fallout from Athens; and Obander's righteousness and wisdom might make this approach more likely to succeed than it otherwise would. It'd definitely be more of what he would personally advise, I feel, well especially in regards to sending the Athenians away. Though he might push for war against the Sicels as a surer bet for a decade-long distraction.
@Cetashwayo, where do the notables stand on what we should do regarding Sicily?
Also on the other issues I'm leaning in favor of taking a restrictionist approach to colonization since we want to increase Eretria's trade income and power and not make more enemies. Keeping the League united probably offers more long-term possibilities even if in the shorter run an "Adriatic Ring" would provide more payoff. And for the war definitely leaning toward Epiktos not least because Xanthos' Lawfulness 1 makes me concerned. Enetoi would probably be the best allies as we have a history of peaceful trade and cooperation with them and they don't bring any complications from getting involved with Etruscan politics while the Dalmatae might be vulnerable to defeat-in-detail if we don't launch a full-throated offensive in concert with them.
I see broadly two approaches that might work, roughly the "Cynical" and the "Idealistic" approach.
The first would take Athenian aid, focus on flipping Selinous as a mercantile city where Athenian silver and perhaps inducements of future trade and wealth will go over comparatively well, and steer the Congress toward taking on Carthage. I feel fairly confident this would work, but there are a couple of risks. First is that Sicily is biting off more than it can chew and we unleash an apocalyptic struggle that depopulates much of the Hellene portions of the island and leaves Syracuse lord over the ruins. The second risk is that it's too successful and the Sicilian League coheres into a real block in control over the island's coast and under Syracusan domination thanks to Syracuse's leading role in a war. Also it's kind of ugly to turn on Carthage that way, though if Athens gets involved in the war having the Athenians and Carthage going at it as the Peace of Nicias is (presumably) signed next year would be an interesting off-ramp from IRL history.
The second is to send the Athenians away, try to sway Gela as the moral and cultural center of Sicily, and push for the Common Peace based on improved communication and cooperation. This too has issues. We should definitely not incur Athenian displeasure lightly, and their talents might talk more persuasively than Obander's rhetoric. If Sicily is closed to Athenian intervention we might find them poking around in Epulia instead and that would be a true disaster. Also the Peace might again work too well and see Syracuse come to head an increasingly unified Sicily without even having to wage a brutal war to do so. This is probably on the whole more of a gamble, though the ideal outcome of a Common Peace that leaves Sicily united against outside aggression but balancing itself enough not to let Syracuse dominate is the best one from Eretrian perspectives. We'd just still have to deal with the fallout from Athens; and Obander's righteousness and wisdom might make this approach more likely to succeed than it otherwise would. It'd definitely be more of what he would personally advise, I feel, well especially in regards to sending the Athenians away. Though he might push for war against the Sicels as a surer bet for a decade-long distraction.
@Cetashwayo, where do the notables stand on what we should do regarding Sicily?
Also on the other issues I'm leaning in favor of taking a restrictionist approach to colonization since we want to increase Eretria's trade income and power and not make more enemies. Keeping the League united probably offers more long-term possibilities even if in the shorter run an "Adriatic Ring" would provide more payoff. And for the war definitely leaning toward Epiktos not least because Xanthos' Lawfulness 1 makes me concerned. Enetoi would probably be the best allies as we have a history of peaceful trade and cooperation with them and they don't bring any complications from getting involved with Etruscan politics while the Dalmatae might be vulnerable to defeat-in-detail if we don't launch a full-throated offensive in concert with them.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It only really makes sense to Ally with them if we are going for the iron ram strategy. If Liburnian is experiencing a land invation it will be about impossible to bait them to attack our forts.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Eupraxis and Mnemnon would prefer an approach to Sicily that avoids conflict with Carthage, while Epiktetos Linos, now acting figurehead of the Demos Drakonia, says it would be better to throw them up against Carthage than not, a more cynical approach but also one more likely to cause the Sicilians to fail, hopefully not too badly, as Carthage might not wish for the apocalyptic outcome you fear.
Supporting Athenai is a little different in terms of opinions. Eupraxis wants them out, Linos advises that it might be better to court Athenai here, and Mnemnon is the same. Eupraxis' opinion, however, is that Athenai getting its foot in the door is very dangerous, and could set up a situation where it becomes the Sikeliote League's primary ally, giving Athenai a "foot in the door" into the west, just as they might have gotten with Thurii if the deal with Taras was refused.