Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[Deadly Snark]

But the most useful, especially if we want to pursue intensive colonization.

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Only if we successfully ally with them, which is unlikely with Obander as our diplomat. Again remember that part of the challenge of the game is not simply to pick the best option, but insure that we pick the options that our officials can actually succeed at.

Send Obander to the Dalmatae and there is a good chance that his hellenic ways will end up with both him and Memmon dead, and then we have no allies for the campaign, and we lose two experienced diplomats.

 

[Night_stalker]

[x] Plan Adriatic Focus

 

[racnor]

[] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].

This option seems like it might be good, but we must remember that the hatred of Syrakousoi for us is increased due to use selecting them as a rival. Our chances of neutralizing the the city we chose as our main rival this way are much lower than they were for Taras.

It only really makes sense to Ally with them if we are going for the iron ram strategy. If Liburnian is experiencing a land invation it will be about impossible to bait them to attack our forts.

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Even for the iron ram, the Enetoi and Histri are possibly more valuable for their smaller, more nimble fleet and experience in the local waters.

And for the war definitely leaning toward Epiktos not least because Xanthos' Lawfulness 1 makes me concerned.

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Third, Eretria could destroy the seapower of the Liburni and Iapodes and spread terror among the islands in a way it had never done before, showing all of the Adriatic its prowess in battle and its ability to project force to every end of the Adriatic, crucial for convincing both allies and the Hellene outposts of the southern Adriatic that it was the true hegemon of the region.

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What ever could you mean, this guy sounds swell! Nothing could go wrong here!

 

[Taut_Templar]

I'm very much of the opinion keeping Athens firmly out of Magna Graecia is important. We don't want them to lose, or perhaps it's better to say we don't want Sparta to win, but their hubris and blatant imperialism is a disastrous combination if they decide there's good pickings to be had west of Hellas.

 

[Deadly Snark]

I'm very much of the opinion keeping Athens firmly out of Magna Graecia is important. We don't want them to lose, or perhaps it's better to say we don't want Sparta to win, but their hubris and blatant imperialism is a disastrous combination if they decide there's good pickings to bad had west of Hellas.

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Hence the issue. We dont want them in Sicily, but if we push them out, they might very well interfere in Italia and Epulia in retaliation. So its like, welp.

 

[Cavalier]

I think we might consider a campaign against the Sikels as well for the Congress, if only because it would likely strengthen the Sikeliote League and other Sicilian powers more than it would Syracuse, especially if Gela could take Morgantina and cut the Syracusans off from further gains in the interior.

 

[Murska]

My preference is Sicily fighting a long distracting war with someone, Carthage is a good target, while we focus on making money and colonies. And the Iron Ram, if it succeeds, is a huge boost to our prestige and eliminates piracy for good rather than patches it up so we have to do it again later. Enetoi definitely for allies, gives us a better chance of getting Venice next election cycle and their nimble fleets can support us and help us avoid ambushes.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Broadly speaking I am of the mind that alienating Athens would go poorly. They havent really cared about us drifting away from them so far because there is still a sense of friendship there and they feel that with the distances involved they dont really need to fuck with an old ally who is occupied elsewhere.

But push them out of Sicily entirely and they will retaliate against us. And I would prefer that we dont have both Syracuse and Athens going after our heads. Sicilian Hoplites on one front, Athenian navy on the other is one of the few things that will end with our city being sacked.

Frankly Syracuse will probably achieve dominion over Sicily eventually, even the update points out that we cant keep the balancing act up forever. So I would rather that in the process of delaying that from happening, we dont end up burning our other diplomatic bridges in the process, as those bridges would be useful against a united Sicily.

And well, Athens is a fairly good leverage to have as an ace in the hole.

 

[PyroTechno]

[] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].

Illyria, the land of opportunity. If word gets out, then we could see an even greater influx of immigrants to Eretria using the city as a springboard into the colonies... but Eretria will most likely keep most of the talent, since there'd be necessarily more demand for artisans in a large city than on the frontier.

[] [Colonization] Allow any citizen organize a colonial expedition with Assembly approval [Worse relations with local powers, more chance of citizen-led colonies].

If we get more Eretrian citizens out in the colonies, their loyalty to Eretria should be improved. Surely, one day we shall unite all Epulia in the spirit of JOLLY COOPERATION COLONIZATION!

[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].

I envision, one day in the future, transitioning from the government of a city-state to the government of an Epulian nation. This seems like an organic "Step 1".




I have no real opinion on the matters of Sicily. From the start, I've considered the whole thing a mistake, and voted against the initial Syracuse rivalry. As far as I can see, the GM has given us more than enough rope to hang ourselves with here. Good luck with that.





Since we're getting into the Sicilian adventures either way, it's probably best to be quick and decisive in this Illyrian war.

(yeah, I know, but I can dream)

[] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)

[] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].

Full invasion. The Wooden Wall is a bandage over the open wound of Adriatic piracy, and even if successful leaves a pissed-off neighbor; the Iron Ram is the actual treatment, or perhaps even the cure. An alliance with Dalmatia combos well with the Exorian strategy, and explicitly aids us with the colonization thing - meanwhile, we don't really need the boats from the other options.




If a plan comes up with these options, I'll vote for it. I would make this a plan, but we have to do something with Sicily, and I doubt my favored write-in "[] Tell Sicily to go fuck itself" will win.

 

[fictionfan]

Even for the iron ram, the Enetoi and Histri are possibly more valuable for their smaller, more nimble fleet and experience in the local waters.

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I thought that iron ram was about destroying them completely? For that we would need feet on the ground. Not just destroying their boats, but their ability to make boats.

 

[Deadly Snark]

I have no real opinion on the matters of Sicily. From the start, I've considered the whole thing a mistake, and voted against the initial Syracuse rivalry. As far as I can see, the GM has given us more than enough rope to hang ourselves with here. Good luck with that.





Since we're getting into the Sicilian adventures either way, it's probably best to be quick and decisive in this Illyrian war.

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Sicily was always going to be an important part of the quest no matter what we choose.

The danger of an United Sicily conquering all of Greek Italy was a very real one OTL. Our choices meant that we can actually influence that to a meaningful degree, rather than waking up one day and oh look its Dionysus I with his fucking Siege Engines knocking down walls like they were made of mud.

In other words telling Sicily to go fuck itself will end with Sicily fucking us.

 

[fictionfan]

How good intelligence do we have on Liburni and vis versa? Our big worry about iron ram is traps. Traps require both for them to know that we are coming and that we don't know about the traps.

 

[Cavalier]

I think the best option might be to work with the Athenians to bribe Selinous to switch sides, and to promote an invasion of the Sikel lands. We won't thereby alienate Athens and keep her in play in Sicily as a last resort against Syracuse growing too powerful, and pressing war on the interior barbaroi to distract everyone is probably a safer bet than trying to promote peace and reconciliation (safer for us anyway given Syracuse's power). Also our allies are likely to gain more from such a campaign than Syracuse would, strengthening them for further confrontations in the future.

Meanwhile basically every other city is in the way of Carthage and Syracuse, so likely they'd all suffer the brunt of any war and either wind up grateful to Syracuse for their support or in no position to resist Syracuse afterward.

 

[Taut_Templar]

Hence the issue. We dont want them in Sicily, but if we push them out, they might very well interfere in Italia and Epulia in retaliation. So its like, welp.

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The Athenians are somewhat distracted at the moment. I was more concerned about them 'getting a foot in the door.' Basically, using the opportunity to secure a toehold to further their ambitions without any great investment. If we lock them out, they might be irritated but they'll probably move on for easier pickings, as Eretria Eskhata isn't an enemy Athens will make over something so petty.

 

[Deadly Snark]

The Athenians are somewhat distracted at the moment. I was more concerned about them 'getting a foot in the door.' Basically, using the opportunity to secure a toehold to further their ambitions without any great investment. If we lock them out, they might be irritated but they'll probably move on for easier pickings, as Eretria Eskhata isn't an enemy Athens will make over something so petty.

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The issue is that one of the rising Stars in Athenian Politics is a brash populist who would be the sort to propose something as foolhardy as sending the Athenian Navy to bring the Epulian League and Eretria to heel, and use that to extract tributes to fund the war against Sparta. If we give insult to Athens by kicking them out entirely.

 

[fictionfan]

The Athenians are somewhat distracted at the moment. I was more concerned about them 'getting a foot in the door.' Basically, using the opportunity to secure a toehold to further their ambitions without any great investment. If we lock them out, they might be irritated but they'll probably move on for easier pickings, as Eretria Eskhata isn't an enemy Athens will make over something so petty.

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It depends on how long Athens memory is. They are distracted now, but if we treat them as an enemy then they are going to start treating us as an enemy.

 

[kilopi505]

@Cetashwayo, are the Olympic participants of Eretria still travelling back home to Eretria as of this vote or have they already returned and would presumably be able to vote too?

What was Eretria's best performance in this Olympics?

 

[dontpressenter]

Athenai, what are you doing? Athenai, stahp. Focus on not getting your arse kicked in Hellas.

Okay, from the top:

Colonization
I feel that it would be better to a controlled colonization program. Better our colonies be slow-growing but solid trees than fast-growing weeds. Further, let us not repeat our original sin and instead work with the local barbaroi as is the Eretrian way. Furthermore, I do not believe we can afford to spend military force in conflict with said local barbaroi.

Finally, there was a proposal given by Pylonos.

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Pylonos! I knew we would see the likes of him again! And with a proposal I disagree with! Just now we witness Athenai's colony Amphipolis defect, and with the boorish Kleon of Athens wringing his supposed allies dry, the Delian league grows ever more divided. Let us not divide the Epulian league likewise. After all, Eretria is city of unions.

Congress of Gela
Athenai, what are- ahem.

I will be honest with you, citizens of Eretria. I grow weary of Athenai's constant interference into affairs west of the Ionian sea. First with Thurii, now with this. As stated before, I'd much rather Athens actually clean up the mess they made in Hellas without being distracted like a young kit. I do not want to cause undue offence to either the city or to Alkibiades, who does not disappoint his talented reputation, but I implore our Athenian friends to refocus their efforts against the Peloponnesian league.

Especially since war in Sicily is inevitable. We know that Syrakousai's ambitions will not stop at the shores of Sicily, and that they have a grudge against us. A united Sicily is a Sicily under our rival, for that is why they brought that idea to the table. Also, I do not want to fight against Carthage, as the last thing we need is another large player in this mess. That leaves incursions against the interior natives as the best course.

I do not know which city to push towards neutrality, but I am leaning towards Selinous. Gela seems like they would be too idealistic in the idea of a united Sicily to sway.

The Liburnian Expedition

Gentlemen. Fuck pirates.

I would stop there, but I should elaborate. We have defeated pirates before, but it is akin to cutting weeds at the stem. They will grow back. In order to remove weeds, one must uproot them. And though Epitektos is noble, his plan merely cuts stems. If we truly do want to solve the pirate problem, I feel we should do so decisively.

However, there are two notable concerns that should be discussed. First is one of our allies. Although the Dalmatae are mighty and would be of great help to our cause, I feel that we may be too different to reach out to them effectively, even with our Mnemnon assisting Obander. I feel much more comfortable with working with the Enetoi, who hate pirates just as much as we do, and have been our friends ever since the founders of our fair city saved some of their people from a shipwreck so long ago.

The second concern is of brave Xanthos. The greatest of men to his friends, the greatest of terrors to his enemies, in many ways he reflects Eretria herself. Yet there is the fear that he will be too much of a terror to his enemies. But fellow citizens, consider this:

Fuck pirates.

 

[Cetashwayo]

[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].

[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].

[X] [League] Create a separate ring of the Epulian League with naval and trade obligations [New district of Epulian League with stronger Eretrian control].

[X] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.

[X] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].

[X] [Peacekeeping] It is time to chase Carthage from the Island! Carthage, with the claims of its mysterious gold and its wide-ranging trade empire, is the greatest threat to Sicily. Better to strike now when Carthage is distracted, and more cynically, to spend a generation's lives against another power [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will come into conflict with the Carthaginians].

[X] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].

[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)

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Remember, plan voting.

I thought that iron ram was about destroying them completely? For that we would need feet on the ground. Not just destroying their boats, but their ability to make boats.

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It's destroying their will and ability to resist, which isn't necessarily killing them all, which is both absolutely beyond the pale even for anti-Pirate Eretria and impossible.

How good intelligence do we have on Liburni and vis versa? Our big worry about iron ram is traps. Traps require both for them to know that we are coming and that we don't know about the traps.

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You don't have that great intel. They could have anywhere between 50-90 Pentekontors, but what matters is how they're used and deployed given they're much smaller than triremes.

@Cetashwayo, are the Olympic participants of Eretria still travelling back home to Eretria as of this vote or have they already returned and would presumably be able to vote too?

What was Eretria's best performance in this Olympics?

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They'd probably be on their way back home.

The performance was bad. No one even in the top five of the competitions, mostly because the best athletes (the ekdromoi) are at home.

 

[veekie]

[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].

[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].

[X] [League] Create a separate ring of the Epulian League with naval and trade obligations [New district of Epulian League with stronger Eretrian control].

Not sure on the rest, revisiting when less busy

 

[racnor]

I thought that iron ram was about destroying them completely? For that we would need feet on the ground. Not just destroying their boats, but their ability to make boats.

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Yeah, but we still need naval attacks up and down the coast to do that. Also, more skirmishers are always important when your plan involves lots of defeat in detail, since we would need to win the skirmish phase to really run down the enemy effectively.

 

[Cavalier]

[X] Plan Phokion
-[] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
-[] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
-[] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontor
-[] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 6, Friendliness 4, Courage 2, Magnificence 6, Wisdom 2


"We have much business to discuss at this Assembly. On the matter of colonization I believe it best to take a measured and steady approach. This program is to strengthen the glory of our city, not to make new enemies to fight. And while we have subjugated the Iapyges and brought them under our benevolent rule it would be difficult to do so again so far from our polis. Let our settlements be centers of commerce and not fortresses in a hostile sea. And as for the League I favor retaining the unity that we have hitherto allowed. We should seek to maintain an association of Hellenes rather than build an empire under our control like that of the Medes. And the more cities in the League, the more difficult it will prove for parties to obtain the supermajority to veto our will; so while we cede some direct control over the cities we would found, in the end our primacy in the Epulian League will be stronger rather than weaker.

And for the matter of the upcoming campaign I favor Epiktetos Linos as our strategos. The islands of the far coast of the Adriatic are a danger to folly. The methodical approach of Epiktetos is to be favored when there is no need to rush for a decisive victory. We should rather than race into the islands the Liburni know too well, where their swarms of small ships might harass and board our triremes at will, instead force them out of their nests. The Enetoi, our good friends and trading partners from the founding of Eretria Eskhata, would make the best choice of allies for this endeavour. They can provide the smaller ships needed to screen our triremes on raids against the Liburni and pilots who know the waters better. Our colonies would also be established to trade with them, so we should renew our friendship in this manner beforehand.

But having said these words it is now Sicily that is most to be dreaded in our deliberations. The news there is not good. Syracuse has almost secured a great victory. We must deflect their vengeance at this Congress or face grave danger. That is why I do not favor sending away the Athenians. Should the Syracusans become the hegemon of Sicily we will need the support of Athenai to stymie their thirst for vengeance. And with that in mind I favor the approach to Selinous, where our silver and the promise of further trade and wealth may sway the leading men of the city to turn against Syracuse.

We should then guide the Sikeliote League to propose the conquest of the Sikels, as war with the tribes of the interior does not compromise our relations with Carthage dating from Herodion's service. Nor does it offer the danger of a war where Syracuse would either be invaluable for the survival of the other cities or would be the least-damaged in the strife. Indeed should our allies secure more of the Sikel lands and enserf the barbaroi they will be strengthened, and since Syracuse used the Sikels against us in the past their conquest would deny Syracuse a possible ally. So that is all to the good."

 

[Cetashwayo]

@Cavalier You have the Carthage option picked but advocate for the Native option.

 

[Secretariat]

Unsure about the Illyrian expedition, but here's a very brief colonial/Sicily proposal:

[ ] Also, Maybe He'll Write A Book About Us
-[] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
-[] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].

-[] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
-[] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[] [Peacekeeping] It is time to chase Carthage from the Island! Carthage, with the claims of its mysterious gold and its wide-ranging trade empire, is the greatest threat to Sicily. Better to strike now when Carthage is distracted, and more cynically, to spend a generation's lives against another power [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will come into conflict with the Carthaginians].

-[] [User Motion] Invite Thucydides of Athens to take up residence in Eretria. A strategos of Athens, his insights into that city will prove valuable to the ekklesia, in order to understand the will and nature of that city. (Pending @Cetashwayo's approval.)

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The focus here is Sicily. My ideal long-term goal is tying a Sikeliote league to an Epulian league; the way I see to achieve that is to create a larger threat to force us to band together. Carthage is the big boogeyman here to induce cities to surrender sovereignty, in the same way that the threat of the Soviet Union forced European unity.

In that sense, I see Gela as the easiest to sway, because it would be the natural political center of a stronger Sikeliote league -- Syracuse is too big and too much of a threat for others to be comfortable putting the seat of power there.

For colonial policy, this plan would encourage the formation of defensible urban centers in Illyria initially, while keeping it under central control to keep from being dragged into overseas conflicts. We can and should revisit that policy once Sicily is resolved, though.

 

[Cavalier]

@Cavalier You have the Carthage option picked but advocate for the Native option.

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Oops, copy/pasted without double checking. Fixed now.