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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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I will also say if people feel that the cost of war is too great then they could argue for peace and avoiding war in situations like this one. That's fine, and keeping with a commercially minded philosophy, but obviously that's got it's own tradeoffs. Nothing is free.
 
"I sense the mood in the city is belligerent, but I would caution against a rush to confront Taras. The Tarantines are near-enough to us as rivals as to be dangerous to confront on the field. Their cavalry was the finest in Italia before the return of Herodion. Their hoplites now fight as free citizens as well in the tradition of their ancestors from Lakedaemon. Furthermore they would be fighting to avenge the dishonor that we, coerced by Kerkyra perhaps, imposed upon them decades ago. If the gods always favored the side with the most just cause I should fear for our polis. It is true that we have advantages with our allies, and would enjoy more still should we align with the Messapii confederacy. But we are not alone in our interests.

Taras was founded of Sparta, and remains close to her mother-polis. Right now the Spartans and Athenians clash for hegemony of Hellas, in the greatest struggle since the battle of the Greeks against the Medes. Sparta's ally, our rival Corinth, detests our presence in the Adriatic. Athenian silver has found its way to the hands of the Messapii and this ambitious king Avithos. We could easily become caught in this rivalry that shakes all of the civilized world should we rush into war with Taras. If we do not win a decisive clash immediately this prospect grows. We have other enemies, such as Syracuse or the Dauni, that might involve themselves or make mischief in our distraction. It serves the interests of some cities, such as Metapontion and Krotone, that Eretria and Taras remain in a balance of power with one another. They might seek to redress a Tarantine defeat by building the sort of coalition that we ourselves have enjoyed such success with.

Now perhaps war is inevitable. If so I will stand beside my fellow citizens in the phalanx and prove myself the equal of my fathers. It may be to the advantage of the city to provoke Taras to war right now. I am uncertain myself. But we should not lie to ourselves. To align with the Messapii is to seek war with Taras and soon. That will bring all the dangers I have listed. Should we pursue this course I would argue in favor of seeking to strengthen the Messapii as allies, as we will be in a fearful struggle that might last far beyond what any but the Olympians and the Fates can foresee. We should be prepared to make common cause again with Kerkyra despite the way they forced us into a shameful position, and even accept that we will fight alongside Athens in their war with Sparta and its many allies.

And yet if we wish to avoid a war right now, to deal with some of our other foes first, I would suggest to the ekklesia that we divide the Messapii with the Tarantines. That will strengthen Taras, and may make war inevitable later. But it will take them some time to digest the barbaroi that have no love for them. That will buy years of peace, and perhaps we might yet succeed in restoring something of the warmer ties that existed between our cities at the Founding. We can in turn take the most promising cities of the Messapii under our protection and turn our attention to yoking the Dauni or securing our trade in the Adriatic while Corinth and Kerkyra fight one another. Taras will be stronger, but we can make ourselves stronger still from the opportunities available to our city. We might renew the alliance with Metapontion and strengthen our Epulian League as well.

If nothing else, I desire that the city not begin a war ignorant or heedless of the many dangers it runs and then to take half-measures in pursuing it. And if I am wrong, then I desire that any fellow citizen help correct my understanding and reassure me of the course the city looks ready to run."
 
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If we really want to make training improvements for festival based training, our best option might well be this one.
Cetashwayo said:
The City of Eretria is a dirty, messy city. It has few great works and the citizens have been clamoring for years for there to be renovations or expansions of the city's temples. Others suggest that the athletic field outside the city should be transformed into a full stadium so that the summer festival of Artemis and Apollon can become a true Panepulian celebration, and still others recommend instead that the city focus on expanding its larger western harbour for the sake of the city's security and commerce.
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This would raise the prestige of our games for us and all our allies people. It's a very antipatrid thing too, so it will probably be the next great work they suggest. (Personally, i'd still prefer the harbor by far, so we can begin gaining trade routes again.)
 
The Messapii can not be trusted with a full alliance and I don't think the citizens mood or morale would tolerate it if we need to cede more power to metics and allies to fight Taras.

[] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].
[] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[] [League] We have already conceded much to the Metics. The league can afford to wait a few years [Special League policies in 349 OL election platforms].
[] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[] [King] Better to keep the Confederacy weak and potentially reliant on Eretrian direction.
 
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Gah, I was not at all considering sparta being Taras' mother city in the equation. No Peloponnesian war for us, thanks!

[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
 
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Remember that if you're redoing your vote to redo your entire vote or else I don't think it will count any of your choices except for the one in your most recent post.
 
Slinger could be very useful too. For a long time they were consider better than archerduring this time.
 
McLuvin said:
Personally I want a Venetian Trade port next term, help us further our Adriatic dominance.
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It's 10 years before we open another trade route slot. I'm in no desperate hurry for that opportunity.
Orisha91 said:
The Messapii can not be trusted with a full alliance and I don't think the citizens mood or morale would tolerate it if we need to cede more power to metics and allies to fight Taras.
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[X] [King] Promote King Artahias as a strong leader for the Confederacy to lead it against Taras and keep the peace with Eretria [-15 talent fee].
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Promoting the king will not mesh well with stealing his cities.
 
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@Cetashwayo Are you willing to shed some light on what would happen (both narratively and gameplay wise), if we were to go for the combination of secret alliances and funding the Messapii king?
Would this undermine our efforts to split off some cities? Or would these cities simply ignore a more powerful king, knowing we will still have their backs?
Basically, I'm wondering if this would decrease the chance of Messapii cities defecting to us? Or, would this simply strengthen Messapii resistance to Taras?
 
[X] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] We have already conceded much to the Metics. The league can afford to wait a few years [Special League policies in 349 OL election platforms].
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[X] [King] Better to keep the Confederacy weak and potentially reliant on Eretrian direction

Ultimately decided to err on the side of caution. War with Taras can wait for a few more tears while we get our affairs in order and expand our subject network. While Taras will undoubetedly expand into the remaining Messapii lands they will have to shed blood to do so and spend time consoldiating their gains. In the meantime we'll hopefully have the time for one more election where we can implement further military buildup.
 
Spacegnom said:
@Cetashwayo Are you willing to shed some light on what would happen (both narratively and gameplay wise), if we were to go for the combination of secret alliances and funding the Messapii king?
Would this undermine our efforts to split off some cities? Or would these cities simply ignore a more powerful king, knowing we will still have their backs?
Basically, I'm wondering if this would decrease the chance of Messapii cities defecting to us? Or, would this simply strengthen Messapii resistance to Taras?
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Potentially both, though it's more likely that if Taras invades the Messapii next year an emboldened and more powerful Messapii leader would probably avoid pissing off Eretria.
 
Another thing to consider is that we just voted to anger Korinth. Not enough to cause war on it's own, but that makes 2 major members of the spartan faction angry at us if we take Taras, more likely to go to war over it and more likely to give it their all when taking us down.
 
"To seek hegenomy in Italy is to make a contest with Taras inevitable, sooner or later. And in the long run we must seek hegemony for our own safety's sake, for even if we do not see ourselves as hegemon, others will look to our wealth, and our lands, and our allies and see us as a danger. We cannot simply sit at our corner of the Adriatic forever and grow wealthier and stronger without consequence. That way lies simple folly.

If we must contest Taras, then I would prefer the contest to be now. Yes, it will drag us onto the periphery of Athenai's war against the sons of Lakedaemon, but in the long run this is inevitable. Korynthos jealously covets our trade, and we sell Athenai grain and take their silver in recompense. We cannot hope to remain neutral forever, except at a very steep cost indeed. A contest with Taras now is a contest where we have allies, and I do not fear Sparta overmuch when they are separated from us by two seas and the Athenian navy.

With the Mesapii and our other allies at our backs, we can beat Taras in the field. Of course there are risks, as in all great undertakings, but they are manageable, and we have the crucial advantages. With our navy and Thurii's too, we can guard our coasts and neutralise Korynthos, who must also consider the Athenians in everything they do. Thurii's armies are also well placed even if they remain at home, for they will give Metapontion much pause for thought about any intervention.

We need not seek to destroy Taras, merely humble them with a victory. After that, we could even show magnanimity in victory, perhaps giving them a Mesapii city in the treaty, whilst we take the rest under our protection. The important thing is that the other Greek cities of Italy see us as a judicious and strong protector. With this one victory we may buy a much longer period of calm, where we can strengthen our alliances with our barbaroi friends, subdue the Dauni, and build a larger and stronger League."
 
Admiral Skippy said:
To seek hegenomy in Italy is to make a contest with Taras inevitable, sooner or later. And we must seek hegemony eventually for our own safety's sake, for even if we do not see ourselves as hegemon, others will look to our wealth, and our lands, and our allies and see us as one. We cannot simply sit at our corner of the Adriatic forever and grow wealthier and stronger without consequence. That way lies simple folly.

If we must contest Taras, then I would prefer the contest to be now. Yes, it will drag us onto the periphery of Athenai's war against the sons of Lakedaemon, but in the long run this is inevitable. Korynthos jealously covets our trade, and we sell Athenai grain and take their silver in recompense. We cannot hope to remain neutral forever, except at a very steep cost indeed. A contest with Taras now is a contest where we have allies, and I do not fear Sparta overmuch when they are separated from us by two seas and the Athenian navy.

With the Mesapii and our other allies at our backs, we can beat Taras in the field. Of course there are risks, as in all great undertakings, but they are manageable, and we have the crucial advantages. With our navy and Thurii's too, we can guard our coasts and neutralise Korynthos, who must also consider the Athenians in everything they do. Thurii's armies are also well placed even if they remain at home, for they will give Metapontion much pause for thought about any intervention.

We need not seek to destroy Taras, merely humble them with a victory. After that, we could even show magnanimity in victory, perhaps giving them a Mesapii city in the treaty, whilst we take the rest under our protection. The important thing is that the other Greek cities of Italy see us as a judicious and strong protector. With this one victory we may buy a much longer period of calm, where we can strengthen our alliances with our barbaroi friends, subdue the Dauni, and build a larger and stronger League.
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I don't think we can give away Messapi citys if we ally with them and trigger the war.
 
racnor said:
I don't think we can give away Messapi citys if we ally with them and trigger the war.
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We absolutely can if we don't unite them under a strong unified leader, since we will be in the driver's seat. The Mesapii will be a weak bundle of reeds when we are not holding them together. Their city closer to Taras is nearly depopulated, in fact, so it would make a pretty good candidate.

Still, what policy we take after our victory is probably getting ahead of oursevles a bit.
 
[X] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].

[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].

[X] [League] Let us listen to the concerns of our Hellene allies [League Synedrion will be called next year].

[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.

[X] [King] Better to keep the Confederacy weak and potentially reliant on Eretrian direction.

Having further considered the matter, the prospect of near-immediate war with Taras does not appeal when a far more lucrative and less Hellenic target beckons in our hinterland. Therefore, let us instead conclude treaties with individual Messapii cities as we might desire; if we must content ourselves with Taras' crumbs, we shall at least ensure we have acquired the most toothsome of the lot without interfering with our plans to gain ample salt for seasoning.

Thus speaks Methodios, son of Pelagios.
 
Skantarios the hoplite, who has hereto remained silent, speaks:

Hear you, sons of Eretria, the sound of your demise? Or has Ares put into your heads the dream of Elysium everlasting? For there is none other reason that we see what we see: that the city rises to war with Taras, a war ill-considered, a war that is being birthed earlier than its time. Better that we poach what we can and consolidate what we must to seek war later and at a more opportune time.

[X] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] We have already conceded much to the Metics. The league can afford to wait a few years [Special League policies in 349 OL election platforms].
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[X] [King] Better to keep the Confederacy weak and potentially reliant on Eretrian direction

Furthermore, discussion among the citizens has inspired me to put forth an idea:

[X] USER MOTION: State-Supported Naval Marines
-[X] To better protect commercial shipping, naval marines shall be recruited and a new building constructed
for the purpose of training and garrisoning them. They shall be salaried, and the salaries will be paid for by the city.
-[X] On high-risk routes Eretrian traders, if they so desire, may be lent out a unit of said marines to serve as security
free of charge or cost. Otherwise Eretrian traders may hire said marines as security for a discounted price that will comprise
of the marine's salaries for the duration of the voyage and an additional fee.
-[X] Non-Eretrian merchants and factors may request to hire Eretrian marines for a price comprising of the marine's salaries for the duration
and a sizeable fee depending on the route and the duration.

Who among you will lift my kleft?

OOC: @Cetashwayo is this fine?
 
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Satar said:
[X] USER MOTION: State-Supported Naval Marines
-[X] To better protect commercial shipping, naval marines shall be recruited and a new building constructed
for the purpose of training and garrisoning them. They shall be salaried, and the salaries will be paid for by the city.
-[X] On high-risk routes Eretrian traders, if they so desire, may be lent out a unit of said marines to serve as security
free of charge or cost. Otherwise Eretrian traders may hire said marines as security for a discounted price that will comprise
of the marine's salaries for the duration of the voyage and an additional fee.
-[X] Non-Eretrian merchants and factors may request to hire Eretrian marines for a price comprising of the marine's salaries for the duration
and a sizeable fee depending on the route and the duration.
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This seems like something that would probably require the support of a Deme given it's going to be very expensive. Do you have any idea how many marines you'd like to recruit or the expense of the building?
 
Admiral Skippy said:
We absolutely can if we don't unite them under a strong unified leader, since we will be in the driver's seat. The Mesapii will be a weak bundle of reeds when we are not holding them together. Their city closer to Taras is nearly depopulated, in fact, so it would make a pretty good candidate.

Still, what policy we take after our victory is probably getting ahead of oursevles a bit.
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Not enough power to get them to fight a war and then surrender to the side they just beat (not to mention, the side they joined the alliance to protect themselves from), methinks.
 
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