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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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You know I expected a lot of different explanations, but Baelor going rouge and pulling a Rambo was not one of them.

In retrospect it actually seems quite obvious given his character.

beansidhe said:
So what you're saying is Viserys looks at them like a proper dragon should lol.
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Hey, why worship when you can become business partners? Far more profitable, as we have demonstrably proven.

[X] Snowfire
 
Crake said:
Danelle had issues with taking on a false guise and saying things that would be interpreted as someone divinely inspired because of how convincing we are, though of course neither could really stop us from influencing things indirectly.
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Pretty sure we can talk around that, at least in the immediate term.

Nothing unholy about us staying silent at the meeting and just talking with people, for one.

Doubt she will kick up an unmanageable fuss, not if we schedule a meeting this very day with her and Lucan anyway.
 
Eleas said:
Oh, shit. Am I slow for finally realizing the possibility that Lucan was sending Baelor to bring us to heel by dynastic authority? Because it fits.

"Behold! Here is the paragon of your line, sanctified in the light of the Seven, and he disapproves of your moral shortcomings. Unless you're truly beyond hope of redemption, it is your duty to respect the head of your house and mend your ways."

Lucan is a firm adherent of the idea of a celestial Hand that Guides the Flock, an elder brother that teaches and instructs and corrects errors from the perspective of greater insight and hard-won experience. When a powerful upstart starts recklessly breaking conventions and messing with Bad Things in service of the Greater Good, what do you do, especially when you think you need to make Viserys listen?

If you're Lucan, you get your phone out and call his dad.
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I wish he had called up Aerys, sacrificing him to the Heart tree, would have been even sweeter than doing it to Baelor was.
Goldfish said:
Stuck at work again (running company-wide inventories sucks!), but I wanted to get some of my thoughts out there for consideration.

[] Plan TBD
-[] "Even the Old Valyrians, my unlamented ancestors, who committed atrocities you cannot likely imagine, had better sense than to Call beings from other Spheres whom they could not control."
-[] "I must admit, Lady Danelle, that it is quite worrisome to learn Lucan, the Chosen of the Father, could make so grave an error in judgement. Such an act would be considered criminal negligence within my realm."
-[] "There is much we have to discuss, and little of it pertains to Lucan Longfield, save that he too should hear what I have to say. I will gladly release his people, if he agrees to a peaceful parlay."
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That's in direct opposition to what our laws actually are, you have to have special dispensation to summon things like Fiends, and you better be able to control them, but you aren't required to keep Celestials under control.

At least precedent lean this way, as Yrael is having his people call up more Archon's and other Celestials, and they are only bound by their own word and beliefs, not by the summoning.

Of course Lucan should not have summoned such a dumbass like Baelor, but Celestials are citizens in our realm, so keeping them under control would actually be illegal, what Lucan did wrong was foolishly calling someone untrustworthy, but now that we know Baelor acted on his own, I'm inclined to label this only a stupid mistake.

We shouldn't be encouraging keeping called Outsiders under control, by our realms law doing so is slavery, what we should be encouraging, is being more careful not to call problematic dumbasses.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Pretty sure we can talk around that, at least in the immediate term.

Nothing unholy about us staying silent at the meeting and just talking with people, for one.

Doubt she will kick up an unmanageable fuss, not if we schedule a meeting this very day with her and Lucan anyway.
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Our mere presence can influence people to say or not say things, though. Esp. if we make concerted effort to influence people in-between votes.

But whining about us getting political when Kyle and Ollidor and to a lesser extent if through a religious lens the other two are also being political about it. Even Lucan, who might feel he is trying to save Westeros, has to play politics for the essential votes.

Kind of hypocritical to say "you don't get a say!" when we're not exactly going to just go away and stop effecting Westeros just by existing and having legitimacy towards our claim over it.
 
tarrangar said:
I wish he had called up Aerys, sacrificing him to the Heart tree, would have been even sweeter than doing it to Baelor was.
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Aerys' soul is probably enjoying the 'comforts' of the Abyss right now, but it is unlikely to have transitioned to Outsider (if it ever will considering he was hardly known to be strong-willed)

Anyway vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 18, 2019 at 10:55 AM, finished with 146 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] What is Personal
    -[X] "It was not an experience I would wish to repeat, to be left little choice but to see him simply...stopped. But given the power he had been invested with, I had few options."
    --[X] Explain how you did not seek to rend Baelor's soul, nor damn him to a hell of the Old Gods' making. The blessing, perhaps curse, he had called down upon himself would have continued to return him to life no matter how many times you defeated him. You can at least be thankful that he was given peace in death. "Made my enemy by circumstance of the power he bore Baelor might have been, but he was still my kin, Danelle." Stealth reference to Rina. She's going to be extremely relevant later on.
    --[X] "But this is more a discussion for the summoner, and perhaps the ones whose words set my ancestor so irrevocably against me." If the second half gets a reaction, I'm really not going to be happy, but I'm also not going to be surprised.
    -[X] Express your desire to speak to both her and Lucan, tonight if possible, under oaths of parlay. You have clearly misinterpreted the man in some things, and you would like to rectify that in the hopes of finding some common ground or compromise. Entirely truthful.
    --[X] You will release two of those you took from Lucan as a show of good faith. The two you keep will be treated as guests, with all the respect that implies, until their release upon a peaceful resolution to the parlay.
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Crake said:
Our mere presence can influence people to say or not say things, though. Esp. if we make concerted effort to influence people in-between votes.

But whining about us getting political when Kyle and Ollidor and to a lesser extent if through a religious lens the other two are also being political about it. Even Lucan, who might feel he is trying to save Westeros, has to play politics for the essential votes.

Kind of hypocritical to say "you don't get a say!" when we're not exactly going to just go away and stop effecting Westeros just by existing and having legitimacy towards our claim over it.
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That's is neither her stance nor her argument though.

She apparently had a whole speech lined up and everything.
 
tarrangar said:
I wish he had called up Aerys, sacrificing him to the Heart tree, would have been even sweeter than doing it to Baelor was.

That's in direct opposition to what our laws actually are, you have to have special dispensation to summon things like Fiends, and you better be able to control them, but you aren't required to keep Celestials under control.

At least precedent lean this way, as Yrael is having his people call up more Archon's and other Celestials, and they are only bound by their own word and beliefs, not by the summoning.

Of course Lucan should not have summoned such a dumbass like Baelor, but Celestials are citizens in our realm, so keeping them under control would actually be illegal, what Lucan did wrong was foolishly calling someone untrustworthy, but now that we know Baelor acted on his own, I'm inclined to label this only a stupid mistake.

We shouldn't be encouraging keeping called Outsiders under control, by our realms law doing so is slavery, what we should be encouraging, is being more careful not to call problematic dumbasses.
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The actual paragon of our line was probably Jaehaerys the Wise, and I doubt he was actually faithful since he was so close to the arrival he probably even had a magical education.

And while we shouldn't encourage restrictive binding on outsiders, we should still encourage responsibility! When we call something we damn well make sure it's either safe or dealt with. Baelor looked safe, but it was still Lucan's job to make sure he really was.

We should also blame the Stranger, if he really was the one who granted an unstoppable murder machine template onto a being meant to be a diplomat. Sure, Baelor asked for the blessing, but Baelor literally died because he wouldn't eat, he does not know what's best for himself.
 
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tarrangar said:
At least precedent lean this way, as Yrael is having his people call up more Archon's and other Celestials, and they are only bound by their own word and beliefs, not by the summoning.
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Yrael is our vassal. If one of the creatures he summons breaks the law of our realm, I'd expect him to make an appearance in court.
 
zxzx24 said:
That's is neither her stance nor her argument though.

She apparently had a whole speech lined up and everything.
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We're present in disguise with our own idea of the Realm's best interests at heart. People can complain about authoritarianism meaning that the people at large do not get as much, if any say, on what is best for them, but religion, esp. the Faith of the Seven, isn't all about making people aware "they get their say too", in fact it encourages obedience to your Lord or Liege regardless of your personal feelings.
 
Crake said:
We're present in disguise with our own idea of the Realm's best interests at heart. People can complain about authoritarianism meaning that the people at large do not get as much, if any say, on what is best for them, but religion, esp. the Faith of the Seven, isn't all about making people aware "they get their say too", in fact it encourages obedience to your Lord or Liege regardless of your personal feelings.
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???

I know (I think). Are you trying to tell me that or Danelle?
 
zxzx24 said:
???

I know (I think). Are you trying to tell me that or Danelle?
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I'm saying, regardless of her argument on the basis that deceiving people as to our identity being wrong, it's naive to expect us to stay hands off and that the "Faith can take care of itself" when the Faith is bound inextricably with the Realm as it stands, which we hope to rule.

It's pragmatism. Ideological bias coming at the same subject from opposite directions, but with the same intent--the good of the people at heart.

I'm just outlining what our motives for disagreeing with her are.
 
065tdsa said:
The actual paragon of our line was probably Jaehaerys the Wise, and I doubt he was actually faithful since he was so close to the arrival he probably even had a magical education.
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The actual paragon of our line is us. But if we don't count, then it's clearly Maegor :p

#MaegorDidNothingWrong

This is a joke. Maegor gets a lot of slander, but he wasn't perfect either
 
Maegor was a monster, the minor details get caught up a bit but his conduct towards people was obviously cruel and sadistic.

But if fighting the Faith was your intention, it's not exactly a terrible idea to curb or limit their power just in the context of House Targaryen, but not if you're going with only half measures. And clearly, if burning an army to the ground doesn't discourage rebellion, burning down their Septs won't either. You need to break their spirit before their bodies.
 
Crake said:
I'm saying, regardless of her argument on the basis that deceiving people as to our identity being wrong, it's naive to expect us to stay hands off and that the "Faith can take care of itself" when the Faith is bound inextricably with the Realm as it stands, which we hope to rule.

It's pragmatism. Ideological bias coming at the same subject from opposite directions, but with the same intent--the good of the people at heart.

I'm just outlining what our motives for disagreeing with her are.
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o.k. that's sounds good.
 
065tdsa said:
The actual paragon of our line was probably Jaehaerys the Wise, and I doubt he was actually faithful since he was so close to the arrival.

And while we shouldn't encourage restrictive binding on outsiders, we should still encourage responsibility! When we call something we damn well make sure it's either safe or dealt with.

We should also blame the Stranger honestly, if he really was the one who granted an unstoppable murder machine template onto a being meant to be a diplomat. Sure, Baelor asked for the blessing, but Baelor literally died because he wouldn't eat, he does not know what's best for himself.
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Yeah we should encourage responsibility in summoning, but seeing as keeping your summon bound is more or less slavery, our rules should be about not summoning problems, not about making sure not to lose control of your summon.
MTB said:
Yrael is our vassal. If one of the creatures he summons breaks the law of our realm, I'd expect him to make an appearance in court.
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I would expect him to make an appearance in court too, but I wouldn't expect it to be as one of the people being accused, I would expect it to be as a witness.

Which is a big difference, Yrael would be expected to tell why he summoned the lawbreaker, but he wouldn't be held responsible for the Lawbreakers actions, unless there was proof of Yrael doing something wrong, such as not vetting the summoned properly, so an accidentally summoned fiend, managed to disguise itself as a celestial.
TalonofAnathrax said:
@DragonParadox, Varys was summoning a lot of devils. More than could really be managed just by buying scrolls (and were did he buy them, anyway? Shouldn't we know that?). And there were various devil-cultist cells around the place, presumably indirectly doing his bidding and summoning lesser devils. Yet summoning devils is actually really hard (Lesser Planar Binding requires level 7, for example).
I suspect that there exists ritual magic to allow cults to summon devils despite having nothing but very low-level mages and enthusiastic mundane cultists. It's presumably slow and/or risky, but explains why there are so many imps and stuff flying around. Could Bloodraven confirm or deny this theory?

My only other explanation is that Varys summoned and enslaved some creature capable of summoning other devils (the Uniila?), and started everything from there. Could Bloodraven confirm or deny that?
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I suspect the answer to that is the usual, you can punch far above your level of power, if you are ready to build a ladder of corpses to punch from.
zxzx24 said:
I have never ever convinced anyone of anything with "moral implications" and gave up on bothering with them years ago.

I left the thread for a few months following us giving up freeing Velen in exchange for a magic item no one remembers or cares about.

edit: I do appreciate the thought though.
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You mean the Pouch of the Weeping Lady? That thing served us well for a long time, and we only choose it over freeing Velen, because Velen is a patient person, and we knew we would be able to free him ourselves soon.
 
tarrangar said:
I wish he had called up Aerys, sacrificing him to the Heart tree, would have been even sweeter than doing it to Baelor was.

That's in direct opposition to what our laws actually are, you have to have special dispensation to summon things like Fiends, and you better be able to control them, but you aren't required to keep Celestials under control.

At least precedent lean this way, as Yrael is having his people call up more Archon's and other Celestials, and they are only bound by their own word and beliefs, not by the summoning.
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That is not true.
We have a law in our very constitution:
§ 31 - Magic
__§ 31.1 - Due to the volatile nature of some fields of magic, the state recognizes the following avenues of research as Restricted Magic.
____§ 31.1.1 - The permanent calling of being from other planes into our world.
____§ 31.1.2 - The creation of animated dead and similar beings made from the remains of living creatures.
____§ 31.1.3 - Magics that adversely affect the mind and might be suited to let a person act against his free will.
__§ 31.2 - Research or acts of Restricted Magic can only be done with the consent and supervision of a congregation of mages which is recognized as such by the crown.
__§ 31.3 - Those found in violation of this law shall be turned over with all their research to the responsible congregation to be judged as they deem fit.
__§ 31.4 - Specific Acts of Restricted Magic can be exempt from these regulations if they are well understood and deemed acceptable by the crown.
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And even if we wanted to give blanket approval to summon Celestials we still shouldn't do it because there is a chance of accidentaly calling fiends of opposed alignment and equal power.

Since Yrael has been training mages and calling allies since before he officially joined our Realm I assume he was allowed to carry on because there was no particular reason to stop him, but he still should have gotten a writ of approval signed by Taena or someone official from the Scholarium for legal reasons.
 
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