I got that and honestly I was almost inclined to let sleeping dogs lie, but with the thread's biases being called out explicitly I felt it would be unfair of me not to admit my own fault, the one I think lead to our current issues in the first place.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
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- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
I got that and honestly I was almost inclined to let sleeping dogs lie, but with the thread's biases being called out explicitly I felt it would be unfair of me not to admit my own fault, the one I think lead to our current issues in the first place.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Lucan though? Really? Last person I would have picked for it. Gareth and co. absolutely, I've waited for that to happen for years. That said, no real complaints. We were sidestepping morality a bit by picking fights with D&D monsters as opposed to people, so it's understandable you got caught in a rut.
More importantly, have you now slept and woken up? I'm trying to understand when you're active, it's confusing to me.
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- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That said, Lucan better have made some smart decisions and good rolls to catch us here, I can't remember the last time someone caught on to one of our disguises.
That, or maybe we're getting sloppy.
That, or maybe we're getting sloppy.
I have it's curently 8 30 AM for me.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah, I see. It's currently 2AM for me.
...I should probably go to sleep, huh?
Given I want to sleep around that hour myself I can say with utter conviction: yes you should. You will thank yourself in the morning.
- Location
- United States
[X] Plan Jules Winfield Speech
[X] Laugh softly. "Let go of my fears. If I had done that while beggared in the streets of Bravos, you and I would never have met. All the calls to my mother's gods went unanswered. In my times of fear I found my strength. I found drive and purpose. I found my friends.
Time and again I have stood against death. I've stared into Ultharid minds that nearly broke me. I've struck down daemons and devils and made pretty trinkets with their harvest. I've tested Fey and find them wanting. They have all watered and nourished my groves. Not just because they stood against me and howled for my blood, but because they wanted the world of men. Crushed, fodder, chattel, sacrifices, and petty little play things.
What has bought me to this very room has been through very measured and careful magic craft.
I have stood against my blood and kin.
Kindred long passed from the mortal coil. Sent to kill. So yes I kicked in doors and captured allies of my enemy. I only regret that instead of a madman hounding for my blood and war against apostates; I found a calm rational man that has been sorely misjudged. I will not let my anger hinder me from learning about my enemy again. Whatever he tells others; I will know he sent that abomination."
[X] Sigh deeply. "It would have been much simpler if he had been that raving lunatic. The Old God's hunger for Chosen blood. I could have given him to them and they would have gifted me my investment sevenfold.
But I am faced with a man that has convictions to see what is right done in this world. It's truly a shame that they are diametrically opposed to my own convictions.
Enough of this farce.
I will give you the unbridled truth about what I am.
I am a conqueror. I have sent men to die at my commands. I have used men and women as tools. I have seized power with everything and everyone I have dominion over. I have killed and tortured with mine own hands. I've assasinates slavers in their beds. I've razed their keeps upon their armies. I've not judged their children for their parents crimes. I've bought enslaved creatures. I've broken chains of millions of slaves. I've brought education and magic to the destitute; healing to the accursed and sick; justice for the oppressed.
And I have done so, so that all who fall under my wingspan can stand with me against this who would challenge the realms of men. Those who would enslave the Plane of Balance."
[X] I will give back to you what I have taken. Upon the last day of the Conclave.
[X] They will be treated as guests in my realm. Free to pass their time seeing whatever they want of my realm in the Narrow Seas.
[X] After this Conclave you will have the opportunity to see if I am... something worse or if tales have been exaggerated.
Goodness. People are coming out of the woodwork with their own votes lately. I figure it's not too late to join in.
It's not the most flowery of words ever written, but I bet DP and Azel could sharpen up Viserys' speech a little.
Off to sleep. See you dudes in around 6-7 hours.
[X] Laugh softly. "Let go of my fears. If I had done that while beggared in the streets of Bravos, you and I would never have met. All the calls to my mother's gods went unanswered. In my times of fear I found my strength. I found drive and purpose. I found my friends.
Time and again I have stood against death. I've stared into Ultharid minds that nearly broke me. I've struck down daemons and devils and made pretty trinkets with their harvest. I've tested Fey and find them wanting. They have all watered and nourished my groves. Not just because they stood against me and howled for my blood, but because they wanted the world of men. Crushed, fodder, chattel, sacrifices, and petty little play things.
What has bought me to this very room has been through very measured and careful magic craft.
I have stood against my blood and kin.
Kindred long passed from the mortal coil. Sent to kill. So yes I kicked in doors and captured allies of my enemy. I only regret that instead of a madman hounding for my blood and war against apostates; I found a calm rational man that has been sorely misjudged. I will not let my anger hinder me from learning about my enemy again. Whatever he tells others; I will know he sent that abomination."
[X] Sigh deeply. "It would have been much simpler if he had been that raving lunatic. The Old God's hunger for Chosen blood. I could have given him to them and they would have gifted me my investment sevenfold.
But I am faced with a man that has convictions to see what is right done in this world. It's truly a shame that they are diametrically opposed to my own convictions.
Enough of this farce.
I will give you the unbridled truth about what I am.
I am a conqueror. I have sent men to die at my commands. I have used men and women as tools. I have seized power with everything and everyone I have dominion over. I have killed and tortured with mine own hands. I've assasinates slavers in their beds. I've razed their keeps upon their armies. I've not judged their children for their parents crimes. I've bought enslaved creatures. I've broken chains of millions of slaves. I've brought education and magic to the destitute; healing to the accursed and sick; justice for the oppressed.
And I have done so, so that all who fall under my wingspan can stand with me against this who would challenge the realms of men. Those who would enslave the Plane of Balance."
[X] I will give back to you what I have taken. Upon the last day of the Conclave.
[X] They will be treated as guests in my realm. Free to pass their time seeing whatever they want of my realm in the Narrow Seas.
[X] After this Conclave you will have the opportunity to see if I am... something worse or if tales have been exaggerated.
Goodness. People are coming out of the woodwork with their own votes lately. I figure it's not too late to join in.
It's not the most flowery of words ever written, but I bet DP and Azel could sharpen up Viserys' speech a little.
Off to sleep. See you dudes in around 6-7 hours.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
That's pretty damn good actually. My only problem is the holding them until the end of the conclave. That makes it seem almost like a trap, and doesn't really sort out any of the issues we're actually having. On the other hand, I would totally suggest keeping this saved somewhere to throw out in the actual conversation we have with Lucan and Danelle together that the current leading plans are pointing towards.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I know you're not talking to me, but I would like to point out that it doesn't say anything about stating we stand by our choices, only thinking it. And IMO, that's much more graceful, because we can admit we were defeated even at our best. In the moment, with what knowledge we had, the decisions and choices we made were sensible and honest. admitting we were wrong but still standing by them as they were keeps us from lessening the worth of our own convictions.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Weren't we? Almost nothing we have done during the Conclave proper--which doesn't count dealing with the Deep Ones and Taimat's sept before--has worked out, and most of it was because we were completely mistaken as to the circumstances. Even the whole kidnapping, IIRC, went through because we still weren't sure Lucan could be trusted, or even was the decent person he has acted as in the last few days, but now we can see that he was. Now, as I said, the thread as a whole should stand by their choice... at least, those they participated in making. Viserys, himself, would, because at the time, with what information we had, it seemed like the correct decision. With what we know now, we might not have made the same choices, but we didn't know. One can not be blamed for ignorance, unless willfully continued after the facts have presented themselves.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Ah, but the way I read the vote, it is about choices made in general.
I stand by the same "non-apologetic" stance I had when voting on Syrax-induced dream-kerfuffle.
I admit to having made mistakes in the past, whenever judging Lucan is concerned, as well as making plans for this Conclave.
Nothing else, and certainly not lamenting any "evil" act done by us.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
A matter of perspective, I guess. The emphasis, to me, seemed to land more on the fact that we had made similar choices here, and even though they came out wrong, it didn't change why we made them. I do, however, agree with the general characterization of Viserys as well. I mean, sure, there were probably plenty of ways we could have been more good than neutral, but they often would have come with more risks. It's the old argument of "I could do a whole lot of good and die in the process, or do a marginally less amount of good, and still be around to do more good later". Neither side is really correct, as long as they are made with actually good intentions at heart, and Viserys has done so.
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
We have, above all other things, prided ourselves on efficiency and effectiveness.
That's why, as one other poster just pointed out, we had a 30 page discussion on just how much of a prick we want to be.
Too much and we waste time kicking puppies, too little and we lose resources we could gain by vivisecting demons alive and stuffing their screaming half corpses into engines to forever drain them of useful resources.
It's a very fine line that we've spent IRL years of time and effort in order to successfully navigate so having someone call us incorrect, or worse, counterproductive, tends to sting a bit.
That's why, as one other poster just pointed out, we had a 30 page discussion on just how much of a prick we want to be.
Too much and we waste time kicking puppies, too little and we lose resources we could gain by vivisecting demons alive and stuffing their screaming half corpses into engines to forever drain them of useful resources.
It's a very fine line that we've spent IRL years of time and effort in order to successfully navigate so having someone call us incorrect, or worse, counterproductive, tends to sting a bit.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
That's cool. Now let's go show her our trophy room, our mounds of paperwork, the--IIRC--literal monument to our inter-planar diplomacy efforts, and the city we turned from a hive of murderous scum into, quite possibly, the greatest city on the plane in more ways than can really be counted. The interesting thing about insults is they have two basic states. One is being true, in which case if you don't like it it's up to you to fix it, and the other is false, in which case you should not only give zero fucks, but also are able to prove it wrong. The latter is especially fun when you get to see their reactiosn of realizing just how badly they fucked up.
Eleas
Avian-at-arms
- Location
- Malmö, Sweden
[x] TotallyNotEvil
I know this is late to the party, and I know that Danelle's trying to jar us into considering the morality angle. It comes across as a bit strange considering this:
and this
and
(and also her Other-touched lover, and the fact that she flinches from us).
My conclusions can be condensed into the following points:
and this
and
(and also her Other-touched lover, and the fact that she flinches from us).
My conclusions can be condensed into the following points:
- She already knew that Lucan's project was a poorly conceived act of escalation. She knew it from the get-go. That we would respond by acting non-lethally against her is mild by any standard.
- She has been at least entertaining cooperation with Bloodraven and/or the OG faction.
- She knows at least something about the threat the Others represent.
- She is fully aware that her acts of charity are uncommon in scale for the Faith in Westeros.
- In light of #1 to #4, she must have grown to personally like Lucan at this point. That's the only explanation I can think of why she would consider Lucan's position to hold merit, as no rational evaluation of the threat toward Westeros would place the Stepstones on the map compared to the Others, the Illithids, Baator, etc. This is also supported by the fact that she believes we would answer words with violence, or indeed that we would act from personally malevolent motives: she's clearly taking her cues from Lucan.
- The Seven are essentially absentee emperors lately returned. By claiming to underpin the Faith, they also assume the moral responsibility for the actions that have benefited the Faith in their absence. Lucan's position in the Conclave seems to be "hey guys, the Seven were with you all along, they're totally on board with all this." Which means that the Westerosi status quo is the world order they wished for: serfs to be preyed on by freedmen, freedmen to be preyed on by nobles, in perpetuum ad nauseam. Contrast that with what we have in the Stepstones, and Danelle's position seems decidedly weak: yes, we use demons and devils as fodder, spending their lives to ensure a better life for the citizenry. The Westerosi world order, sanctioned by the Faith, does the same thing with the general populace, for the benefit of themselves and the Nobility.
- So the question is what Danelle wants to be. Is she a conscientious actor who, more or less alone, represents a better view of the Seven? In that case, she is entitled to criticize us, but then she cannot rely on her own side's assumed moral authority, and must contend with the fact that we alone surpass her good deeds by a hundredfold. Or is she alternatively nothing but a loyal servant of her masters? Then she must be assumed to speak not as Danelle but as a representative of the Seven themselves: beings who have perpetrated untold atrocities and who have decided to accept neither blame nor responsibility for their conduct.
Neither of these paint Danelle in good light. She's either ignorant or wringing hands still wet with the blood of innocents.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
It should also be noted that she is a teenager--one who does not share the same level of sheer conviction Viserys and many of his people possess--who has quite suddenly had several of her friends be brutally assaulted and kidnapped by an overwhelming force who she has had very little reason to believe means anything but ill on the world, considering there's been no chance to see the kingdom we are building. While there are plenty of moral implications to this plea, it is primarily an emotional one. I've seen nothing to suggest Danelle doesn't at least recognize there have been mistakes on her side, but much like us believes they were done for the right reason.
Eleas
Avian-at-arms
- Location
- Malmö, Sweden
That's a very good point. In fact, I'm not saying we should come across as morally set or unwilling to reevaluate our views. In fact, the opposite stance (I'm not going to call it a tactic, because while it works as one, it's actually how we operate) is probably going to be the best weapon we have against her connection with Lucan.
"Thinkest thou wiser than I?" Lucan saw that question as obviously rhetorical. Would Danelle, when standing at a moral crossroads? I doubt it. Danelle is willing to follow her convictions above the edicts of authority. Lucan is not. She may like him, but my read on their relationship is that this is in spite of his tendency to rationalize his own obedience.
So showing that we can bend and adapt in service to the people and those in need, that we have made their wellbeing the ultimate goal, but that Lucan ultimately cannot do the same, is going to be useful or even crucial. Not the least because helping people to be more thoughtful and gentle and kind seems to be very much in line with Danelle's motivations as a whole.
If we show that we're actually willing to entertain such input, and on a scale much larger than the occasional donation to charity, that is really something that the Faith's existing organization can't reliably offer.
Also, we really have zero need for the hostages anyway.
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- Location
- Who knows?
[X] TotallyNotEvil
Yeah, I think if we want to talk with Danelle and not just nuke her, it's time to let go of the hostages, but I'm doing this instead of Crake since honestly, Baelor.
Though as the vote crafter for the "talk with Baelor," option, I would find it the funniest fucking thing if it turned out he really was a nice boy willing to talk all this time. Shit, even I was 100% certain it would end in bloodsheed regardless but wanted to hear him out and learn something of the Seven.
Yeah, I think if we want to talk with Danelle and not just nuke her, it's time to let go of the hostages, but I'm doing this instead of Crake since honestly, Baelor.
Though as the vote crafter for the "talk with Baelor," option, I would find it the funniest fucking thing if it turned out he really was a nice boy willing to talk all this time. Shit, even I was 100% certain it would end in bloodsheed regardless but wanted to hear him out and learn something of the Seven.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Now before I start, I don't actually disagree with this. All of this is both accurate and would be awesome to turn Danelle to our side. But keep in mind that many of our actions are, in fact, quite heavily a "greater good" sort of thing. Nasty or undesirable things in the short term, such as using monsters for fodder or tempting Devils away from hell, or even our general tactics of subterfuge, murder, and very occasionally torture of some kind can be very hard to justify to someone whose entire thing is compassion.We would have to be very careful about how we present it all.
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
To be honest? I don't want her.
We've got Xor for our moral compass and he's a lot less judgmental. Also he's more fun to talk to because he often comes at problems from an angle we wouldn't consider and gives useful input beyond "you're bad for doing that."
Sure he might have made a Zombie plague, but everyone makes mistakes.
We've got Xor for our moral compass and he's a lot less judgmental. Also he's more fun to talk to because he often comes at problems from an angle we wouldn't consider and gives useful input beyond "you're bad for doing that."
Sure he might have made a Zombie plague, but everyone makes mistakes.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I'm not saying we have to have her as our moral compass or anything, but even slightly friendly relations would involve some interaction. The other options are just breaking away from the faith issue altogether and ignoring them, which our oaths and goals prevent, or declaring war and murdering them all. We've mostly dismissed the latter by now, so we should probably at least brush up on our "greater good" speeches. It wouldn't hurt.