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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Crake said:
You are missing so much of the nuance in the post by boiling it down to two key components, but yes, essentially the whole plot is engineered so that you have the chance to pick what kind of man you really are. Savior or Villain?

We can of course choose neither, release the hostages, and accept that while we won't make peace with inherently antithetical factions, neither are we some monster who doesn't have a heart. But that's beside the point, and not what the arc is written to do.
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You mean that years of RP boiled down to a nun wagging her finger at us and telling us: "it's not nice to be evil"; and that our choice will be the capping stone of our Journey?
Because if that's the case, I am Fucking done.
 
What the fuck why are people voting Goldfishes plan it LITERALLY WON'T WORK Disregard that I'm not paying enough attention.
etincelle047 said:
You mean that years of RP boiled down to a nun wagging her finger at us and telling us: "it's not nice to be evil"; and that our choice will be the capping stone of our Journey?
Because if that's the case, I am Fucking done.
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No, it means commit to being a good person or commit to being a villain. Which is also stupid because it equates villain to "not an absolute paragon of good" but that's a different problem, and a much smaller one.
 
etincelle047 said:
You mean that years of RP boiled down to a nun wagging her finger at us and telling us: "it's not nice to be evil"; and that our choice will be the capping stone of our Journey?
Because if that's the case, I am Fucking done.
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That's what happens when you decide to call into question, unilaterally, without any transparency, to re-write three years of roleplay and vote-crafting in a single evening.

Fucking hell.
 
DragonParadox said:
Actually since Jaehaerys the Conciliator it's more like the Avignon Papacy only more so. Baelor the Blessed once made an illiterate stonemason High Septon because he felt like it at the time and no one could stop him.
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I hadn't thought about it like that. But if we are at Avignon Papacy levels that would give us more leeway in how lenient we can to Lucan & his allies. That being said we need to have some type of agreement in which We layout what we expect/need from the Faith to Lucan. And we either get his agreement, or make him disappear as we shouldn't tip our hand yet.
 
etincelle047 said:
You mean that years of RP boiled down to a nun wagging her finger at us and telling us: "it's not nice to be evil"; and that our choice will be the capping stone of our Journey?
Because if that's the case, I am Fucking done.
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Obviously evil is usually very mean :D
But honestly, Viserys doesn't want to be that guy. He doesn't want to be a tyrant or an evil overlord. And this not-nun is pointing out some hypocrisy and now he's self-reflecting. Doesn't seem so farfetched.
 
[X] Goldfish

I will vote for this, though I really hope we can bring up, talking about having her help convince the Seven to pay the reparations they owe the old gods, I would like to at least give that a try, before going with the old gods plan A(murdering Seven followers, until the accounts are close enough to balanced)
 
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Goldfish said:
-[X] "Before this discussion progresses any further, Lady Danelle, let me make one thing clear. Your friends are free to go, either now if you wish it or released directly into your custody when we are finished here. Your friends were not my intended targets and I will not hold them hostage against your good behavior, or to leverage you into my service. With that said, I let you speak your mind and now I would appreciate it if you let me speak mine."
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We did this in the last vote. She's was not amused.

Goldfish said:
-[X] "I have all too often seen mages bound to service, not through oaths willingly given or loyalty earned, but through enchantment, curses and worse. Surely you are familiar with Tywin Lannisters' Golden Shields? I've yet to encounter one who was not magically bound to serve him, regardless of their willingness. The Citadel? They sent a spy to infiltrate my Scholarium, one who had been branded through magic such that he could not disobey the Maesters holding his leash on pain of death. So yes, when I heard rumors that Lucan practiced similar atrocities, I believed them. After all, the man had already made himself my enemy."
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This is still a liiiiiiiiieeeeeeee. The thought never crossed our mind and it doesn't do anything other than make us look worse for pretending.

Goldfish said:
--[X] "Are you familiar with the Angels Lucan has Called into his service? If so, you might remember Baelor, once called the Blessed due to his overwhelming piety and faith in the Seven, but also my ancestor and a former King of Westeros. Baelor was not simply Called to serve. He was empowered far beyond the normal bounds of his fellows and given a Divine mission to kill me. Obviously, Baelor did not succeed in his mission, save in poisoning my opinion of your fellow Chosen."
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This is good

Goldfish said:
--[X] "Another Angel in Lucan's service, Roland, with whom I spoke cordially shortly before the Conclave first convened, did not trust Lucan to meet with me and honor the terms of parlay when I asked if such was possible. What would you think then, were you in my boots?"
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This is decent if bit for all the times DP said it was a fat sack of lies.

Goldfish said:
--[X] "So when I learned that mages in Lucan's service were here in Oldtown, I decided to take a chance, to risk the carefully cultivated persona I have used to great effect here in Westeros in order to learn what I believed was critical information. Were they, too, bound to serve yet another Westerosi master? Were they compelled to serve through fear or magic? If not, yet another false rumor would have been laid to rest, as have been many in these past days. If they were, I would have gladly freed them, as you must know there are few things I abhor more than slavery?"
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Lies, and lies you contradict in the lines above these.

Goldfish said:
---[X] "And if his mages were not coerced, but were in fact his companions, then that too could have been of use to me. Cold as it may seem, hostages might have allowed me to meet with the man and trust that he would honor a parlay, one that Roland the Angel didn't trust him to heed."
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Why preface this with so much BS and so many lies?

Goldfish said:
-[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were honorable, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
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Lies, also what matters? As far as I know we were just here to ruin shit.

Goldfish said:
--[X] "Although the timing is quite awful and you have little reason to trust my intentions, I would like to invite you to Sorcerer's Deep, along with any you wish to accompany you. Before you call a land Hell-on-Earth, you should take the opportunity to walk its streets, meets those who call it home, and learn what has truly passed to make it as it now is. Let us make something of this sad state of affairs. If we cannot be friends, I would at least hope for an understanding between us, one which benefits all and harms none, for I suspect many of our goals are one and the same, despite what otherwise sets us apart."
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This is good.

All in all it's going to paint us a manipulative villain who views others only as pawns and tools to be used for our own end.

Not a bad way to torpedo the discussion honestly.
 
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zxzx24 said:
This is still a liiiiiiiiieeeeeeee. The thought never crossed our mind and it doesn't do anything other than make us look worse for pretending.
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zxzx24 said:
This is decent if bit for all the times DP said it was a fat sack of lies.
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zxzx24 said:
Lies, and lies you contradict in the lines above these.
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Uhh you say that but actually Goldfish was somewhat concerned about whether or not they were being enslaved. Also we totally believed that angel meant there could be no parley. Also we didn't know anything was fucky about Baelor until right now OOC. So please stop calling everything lies when people in thread believed them to be true.
 
Plan updated.

All hostages released. Revised recounting of our meeting with Roland. More focus on Kingkiller Baelor, including questions of why Lucan did it at all.

[X] Plan "My Turn"
-[X] "Before this discussion progresses any further, Lady Danelle, let me make one thing clear. Your friends are free to go, and Lucan's along with them, either now if you wish it or released directly into your custody when we are finished here. Your friends were not my intended targets and I will not hold them hostage against your good behavior, or to leverage you into my service. Lucan's have served their purpose in revealing to me his concern for them and ultimately leading to this meeting. Now, I let you speak your mind and now I would appreciate it if you let me speak mine."
-[X] "I have all too often seen mages bound to service, not through oaths willingly given or loyalty earned, but through enchantment, curses and worse. Surely you are familiar with Tywin Lannisters' Golden Shields? I've yet to encounter one who was not magically bound to serve him, regardless of their willingness. The Citadel? They sent a spy to infiltrate my Scholarium, one who had been branded through magic such that he could not disobey the Maesters holding his leash on pain of death. So yes, when I heard rumors that Lucan practiced similar atrocities, I believed them. After all, the man had already made himself my enemy."
--[X] "Are you familiar with the Angels Lucan has Called into his service? If so, you might remember Baelor, once called the Blessed due to his overwhelming piety and faith in the Seven, but also my ancestor and a former King of Westeros. Baelor was not simply Called to serve. He was empowered far beyond the normal bounds of his fellows and given a Divine mission to kill me. Obviously, Baelor did not succeed in his mission, save in poisoning my opinion of your fellow Chosen. How much time did Lucan spend to summon Baelor the Blessed, time he could have better spent ridding Westeros of monsters? Why send my ancestor to slay me when there are more Devil plots in these lands than can be counted on two hands?"
--[X] "Another Angel in Lucan's service, Roland, with whom I spoke cordially shortly before the Conclave first convened, did not believe Lucan would even deign to meet with me should I seek to parlay with him.
--[X] "So when I learned that mages in Lucan's service were here in Oldtown, I decided to take a chance, to risk the carefully cultivated persona I have used to great effect here in Westeros in order to learn what I believed was critical information. Were they, too, bound to serve yet another Westerosi master? Were they compelled to serve through fear or magic? If not, yet another false rumor would have been laid to rest, as have been many in these past days. If they were, I would have gladly freed them, as you must know there are few things I abhor more than slavery?"
---[X] "And if his mages were not coerced, but were in fact his companions, then that too could have been of use to me. Cold as it may seem, hostages might have allowed me to compel a meeting with the man."
-[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were good, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
--[X] "Although the timing is quite awful and you have little reason to trust my intentions, I would like to invite you to Sorcerer's Deep, along with any you wish to accompany you. Before you call a land Hell-on-Earth, you should take the opportunity to walk its streets, meets those who call it home, and learn what has truly passed to make it as it now is. Let us make something of this sad state of affairs. If we cannot be friends, I would at least hope for an understanding between us, one which benefits all and harms none, for I suspect many of our goals are one and the same, despite what otherwise sets us apart."
 
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Quest said:
[] Say something else:
-[] My first interaction with the faith was the soul of my ancestor specifically being empowered as an angel to kill me. Forgive me for non-lethally capturing people working for those with proven hostile intent. Both sides have attempted to strike at each other. Right now, I would like nothing better than to release the people under my custody and have a frank open discussion with both the Seven and thier Chosen. Tell me, how we can go from here to there?

My thoughts, probably needs a lot of edits. Honestly, I just want to speak to the seven. I'm heading to sleep, hopefully someone can use it.
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I like this idea, it has my vote.

[X] Say something else:
-[] My first interaction with the faith was the soul of my ancestor specifically being empowered as an angel to kill me.
 
Goldfish said:
-[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were honorable, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
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I would exchange honorable for good here, as we never believed that what we were doing was honorable, but we were planning to do our best to minimize bloodshed, so while what we planned wasn't honorable, it was supposed to save lives.
 
Goldfish said:
Plan updated.

All hostages released. Revised recounting of our meeting with Roland. More focus on Kingkiller Baelor, including questions of why Lucan did it at all.

[X] Plan "My Turn"
-[X] "Before this discussion progresses any further, Lady Danelle, let me make one thing clear. Your friends are free to go, and Lucan's along with them, either now if you wish it or released directly into your custody when we are finished here. Your friends were not my intended targets and I will not hold them hostage against your good behavior, or to leverage you into my service. Lucan's have served their purpose in revealing to me his concern for them and ultimately leading to this meeting. Now, I let you speak your mind and now I would appreciate it if you let me speak mine."
-[X] "I have all too often seen mages bound to service, not through oaths willingly given or loyalty earned, but through enchantment, curses and worse. Surely you are familiar with Tywin Lannisters' Golden Shields? I've yet to encounter one who was not magically bound to serve him, regardless of their willingness. The Citadel? They sent a spy to infiltrate my Scholarium, one who had been branded through magic such that he could not disobey the Maesters holding his leash on pain of death. So yes, when I heard rumors that Lucan practiced similar atrocities, I believed them. After all, the man had already made himself my enemy."
--[X] "Are you familiar with the Angels Lucan has Called into his service? If so, you might remember Baelor, once called the Blessed due to his overwhelming piety and faith in the Seven, but also my ancestor and a former King of Westeros. Baelor was not simply Called to serve. He was empowered far beyond the normal bounds of his fellows and given a Divine mission to kill me. Obviously, Baelor did not succeed in his mission, save in poisoning my opinion of your fellow Chosen. How much time did Lucan spend to summon Baelor the Blessed, time he could have better spent ridding Westeros of monsters? Why send my ancestor to slay me when there are more Devil plots in these lands than can be counted on two hand?"
--[X] "Another Angel in Lucan's service, Roland, with whom I spoke cordially shortly before the Conclave first convened, did not believe Lucan would even deign to meet with me should I seek to parlay with him.
--[X] "So when I learned that mages in Lucan's service were here in Oldtown, I decided to take a chance, to risk the carefully cultivated persona I have used to great effect here in Westeros in order to learn what I believed was critical information. Were they, too, bound to serve yet another Westerosi master? Were they compelled to serve through fear or magic? If not, yet another false rumor would have been laid to rest, as have been many in these past days. If they were, I would have gladly freed them, as you must know there are few things I abhor more than slavery?"
---[X] "And if his mages were not coerced, but were in fact his companions, then that too could have been of use to me. Cold as it may seem, hostages might have allowed me to compel a meeting with the man."
-[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were honorable, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
--[X] "Although the timing is quite awful and you have little reason to trust my intentions, I would like to invite you to Sorcerer's Deep, along with any you wish to accompany you. Before you call a land Hell-on-Earth, you should take the opportunity to walk its streets, meets those who call it home, and learn what has truly passed to make it as it now is. Let us make something of this sad state of affairs. If we cannot be friends, I would at least hope for an understanding between us, one which benefits all and harms none, for I suspect many of our goals are one and the same, despite what otherwise sets us apart."
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I'm happy with this one. Seems like it has the best chance of working diplomatically. If it doesn't, then I'll be happy with voting for a more traditional Goldfish plan shortly afterwards.
 
DragonParadox said:
You guys really should ask about Baelor. That is a legitimate question to ask IC and I promise it is not a character or world-building hole. Saying more would be a spoiler.
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This feels like a step too far. At some point, it stops being a nifty surprise reveal and starts looking like either a retcon or us being set up for failure. Every piece of evidence we had, even ooc stuff like interludes, painted a single coherent picture of the guy, and the kingkiller in particular is not the kind of thing that admits to a plausible innocent explaination. The most charitable one I'll believe is that it was intended as a threat in order to coerce us in some way and it went wrong. Even that is a stretch, and that's still the action of an enemy.

It feels like everything we've done here was built on a foundation of deceit intended to lead us exactly where we are now, and though we could have possibly escaped it if we had acted correctly, we had absolutely no reason at all to do so. The universe conspired to put us where we are now in order to achieve a particular ooc result. It feels like a hybrid of standard railroading, a deus ex machina unavoidable surprise twist, and the what the lead up to the harmony gaslighting thread explosion from TBG would have looked like in character. I think I get what you are trying to do, and I even mostly like the high level intent, but the only reason I'm not angrier about the execution is that I'm not all that invested in this quest.
 
zxzx24 said:
We did this in the last vote. She's was not amused.
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What? Literally the very first thing I'm doing is releasing the hostages.
This is still a liiiiiiiiieeeeeeee. The thought never crossed our mind and it doesn't do anything other than make us look worse for pretending.
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Not a lie at all. We've long labored under the misconception that Lucan was virtually enslaving mages. Now we know otherwise, but that's been a very recent revelation.
This is decent if bit for all the times DP said it was a fat sack of lies.
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Not a lie, but another misconception brought on by our misunderstanding of what Roland told us. My updated plan addresses this.
Lies, and lies you contradict in the lines above these.

Why preface this with so much BS and so many lies?

Lies, also what matters? As far as I know we were just here to ruin shit.
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I disagree. And there is a lot of info we have that would be of interest to Danelle and likely Lucan as well, info which can still be used to keep the Faith from uniting. The Fey issue in the Reach and Septon Kyle's efforts to normalize relations with the Fey are worth trying to exploit, even if we only do so by infodumping on the Chosen.
All in all it's going to paint us a manipulative villain who views others only as pawns and tools to be used for our own end.

Not a bad way to torpedo the discussion honestly.
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Again, I disagree.
 
I'm not sure if this is a valid criticism, but I might as well get it off my chest.

@DragonParadox @Azel

In my opinion, the choice to make Lucan a more developed character as a reflection of Viserys has also made Danelle more two dimensional and more of a plot device.

I had assumed Danelle to be the more diplomatic and understanding of the two chosen after that interlude after we killed the King Killer and she contemplated finding and negotiating with Blood Raven in order to stop the conflict between the faiths. To me, this was an indicator that she understood compromise and was negotiate. I also assumed that she was willing to accept that sometimes you need to take a step back to achieve what you want (as there's no way in hell the Old Gods would say "yeah we're cool" in a negotiation with the Seven).

The recent characterization of Danelle as someone who is very idealistic and unwilling to accept a compromise while also expecting Viserys place his trust in nothing but her word and give up his leverage.. just seems a bit off to me. It feels like Danelle has become more idealistic than she was previously portrayed as in order to offer us a moral choice while Lucan has become more competent to provide us with a suitable challenge. Danelle knows that Lucan has sent a king killer after us, sure this knowledge isn't available to Viserys IC but a flat out refusal to accept anything other than a total capitulation in order to even begin negotiations just seems inconsistent.

Of course, I may be totally wrong and just have terrible reading comprehension.
 
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