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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azurath said:
Look, you just confirmed that exception to the rule exists and that smart ones will get away. You also told me that these people will be followed AFTER they are released, using more manpower and resources on them. Furthermore, you haven't addressed how these smart ones will now hate us and have gained power from the trials we put them through. So in my eyes, this sounds like a project that will continuously drain funds while reforming 99percent of the cultists and a 1 percent that has now been let free into the establishment as lvled freedman who hate us.
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Azurath said:
Redemption is possible, but are you willing to risk the lives of others for it? You know, our civilian population and infrastructure?
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Excuse me, I'm just going to be over here, continuing to point at how Mantarys isn't a smoking crater. Because at the end of the day, that is the counterargument. This works. We can see that it works. The hypothetical scenarios you're creating here fall rather short when faced with that reality.
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on May 2, 2019 at 1:16 PM, finished with 305635 posts and 60 votes.
  • [X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - No deployment of WMDs, tactical or otherwise, with a civilian population as the primary target.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    --[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
    ---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
    ---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
    ---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
    [X] Abstain
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Snowfire said:
Most of that was down to "MORE THINGS FOR THE HORDE" than anything else, to be fair. Of course, that in some ways makes the point pretty clear.
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Yeah, funny how all of a sudden redemption becomes possible when there's POWER on the line. Redemption is totally possible, the only real question is "can we help more people by taking those efforts and putting them elsewhere" if you follow utilitarian principles.
Snowfire said:
The idea that the Deep Ones have civilian populations is one hell of a hot take given how their biology and civilisation works.
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Is them having a civilian population even possible? Aren't they kind of like the borg?
 
Snowfire said:
Excuse me, I'm just going to be over here, continuing to point at how Mantarys isn't a smoking crater. Because at the end of the day, that is the counterargument. This works. We can see that it works. The hypothetical scenarios you're creating here fall rather short when faced with that reality.
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??? It's easier for a relapsed cultist to leave the Archon-ruled city and go elsewhere, where it's (for the time being) easier to set up shop again. Mantarys proves - not much.
And the opportunity cost of therapy/redemption is a real one, as are the benefits. Including moral/ethical considerations.
Snowfire said:
The idea that the Deep Ones have civilian populations is one hell of a hot take given how their biology and civilisation works.
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Ahhh, so, well, then I'm all for the restriction. As long as 'civilian' is open to (re)interpretation, that's a nice new fig leave.
 
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chryssalideater said:
Yeah, funny how all of a sudden redemption becomes possible when there's POWER on the line. Redemption is totally possible, the only real question is "can we help more people by taking those efforts and putting them elsewhere" if you follow utilitarian principles.
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And let's not forget the example of how many magical artefacts we sacrificed to get Rina back. A lot of those votes were driven by the same calculus.
 
Snowfire said:
Excuse me, I'm just going to be over here, continuing to point at how Mantarys isn't a smoking crater. Because at the end of the day, that is the counterargument. This works. We can see that it works. The hypothetical scenarios you're creating here fall rather short when faced with that reality.
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Until I know what the Angels are doing I cannot comment on the rate of their success. Furthermore, just making lvled characters who hate you won't immediately destroy the city. On the subject of Mantarys, how it is?

Has the Angels lessened crime and the rate of murders? Or have they just dragged it out into the open where they can simply kill the results of the infestation instead of addressing the root of the problem? You are trusting the handling of the human psyche to beings of infallible Good. Beings who can't account for the wants of the individual, where they only see the Greater Good. You are trusting that these people will reform cultists? I would've thought they would've killed them day one or forced an alignment change on them and call it a job well done.
 
Noobody77 said:
Well thanks to opening up this can of moralizing worms, prepare to have this argument for every action we want to take.
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Hi, I'm the person leading the argument for minor change.

I would not argue to not nuke a Deep One city.

I'm relatively confident in my ability to sway folk in that direction if it comes down to it. And if I can't, the magpies will. The idea that this is anything new is entirely insubstantial.
 
Snowfire said:
Hi, I'm the person leading the argument for minor change.

I would not argue to not nuke a Deep One city.

I'm relatively confident in my ability to sway folk in that direction if it comes down to it. And if I can't, the magpies will. The idea that this is anything new is entirely insubstantial.
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I don't really want to nuke a Deep One city. I'd vastly prefer mass turtling.
 
Azurath said:
Until I know what the Angels are doing I cannot comment on the rate of their success. Furthermore, just making lvled characters who hate you won't immediately destroy the city. On the subject of Mantarys, how it is?

Has the Angels lessened crime and the rate of murders? Or have they just dragged it out into the open where they can simply kill the results of the infestation instead of addressing the root of the problem? You are trusting the handling of the human psyche to beings of infallible Good. Beings who can't account for the wants of the individual, where they only see the Greater Good. You are trusting that these people will reform cultists? I would've thought they would've killed them day one or forced an alignment change on them and call it a job well done.
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There's this funny thing called abstraction. You might have heard of it in fiction. Feel free to ask @DragonParadox these question, but expecting me to know the answers is a little much. I'm not a mindreader.
 
[X] Snowfire

I want Viserys' take away to be more than just acknowledging this dissonance, instead actively trying to be better.
 
Snowfire said:
And let's not forget the example of how many magical artefacts we sacrificed to get Rina back.
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To be fair, in that particular case we sacrificed stuff already slated to grow Heart Trees out of.
So we only interchanged growing trees for getting a unique PC there insofar as Powah!-driven decisions are concerned.
 
[X] Snowfire

As others have remarked, I'm mostly chosing this option because I feel like the inquisition should be reigned in a bit before they start resembling their namesake too much. I'm less keen on offering fiends and cultists a way out but I can live with that.

However as someone who caught up with this thread when it was already years in the making and has mainly been lurking since then I'd like to say while I don't mind this chapter, I never really felt like the problem it's tackling (the hipocrisy of some of Viserys' decisions) was a big problem. I know some people dislike the internal monologue that ususally depicts Viserys' doubts and ethical qualms only to then be followed by taking the morally questionable option anyway. But to me, this always felt like a good way to portray the heated discussions in the thread, while still respecting the ultimate outcomes of the votes and furthering Viserys' characterization as someone who makes hard choices for what he sees as the greater good. The fact that he still has some personal ethical lines he will not cross even though he's arguably crossed other, worse lines before, may make him a bit of a hypocrite, but it also makes him human.

However, I can understand why some people were bothered and as I said before I don't dislike this chapter or the way it adresses the issue. What I do dislike however, is that some people regurlaly get so personally invested in these discussions that they start personally attacking each other OOC. To me, ethical dilemmas and the ensuing debates are one of the main reasons I like cooperative rpgs. All the worse to see some of the most active people express their discontent or even leave the thread because the debates so quickly escalate to OOC criticism and attacks. As someone who usually sides with the Snowfire side whenever a moral debate comes up, I'm sad to see Azel leave over this and I hope he'll be back within a week or two.
 
chryssalideater said:
Yeah, funny how all of a sudden redemption becomes possible when there's POWER on the line. Redemption is totally possible, the only real question is "can we help more people by taking those efforts and putting them elsewhere" if you follow utilitarian principles.

Is them having a civilian population even possible? Aren't they kind of like the borg?
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Unfortunately, yes. Take the Furies, we only saved them because they could help us save more people. Furthermore, we know they will not be turned again barring extreme circumstances. They were worth the time and effort put in.

The hundreds if not thousands of cultists? With the added concerns without our direct intervention? The risk of failure would be the suffering of our civilians, so no.
 
065tdsa said:
It's an edge case that only applies to good beings from the Far Realm. Mortals or anyone else who isn't from the Far Realm, or evil or uncaring beings from the Far Realm can't apply it. Their minds are different. Where you and I know instinctively that causes have effects that are consistent, to Xor this is an intriguing new property, if one he's grasped quickly.
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Can you prove it only applies to good being from the Far Realms, exclusively and explicitly?

Because the logic is that you can have a Good creature commit Evil acts for what it believes are moral reasons, and not turn Evil.

Xor definitely proves that mindset and intent are a very serious part of the equation. His unique circumstances just allow him to prove it starkly.
 
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