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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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TotallyNotEvil said:
That's precisely the point.
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A point that doesn't work for like 99% of everyone, because they're not Xor. We're not going to find a lot of beings from the Far Realm that are actually Good and care for others but don't understand plagues and Negative Energy do bad things to squishy people from planes with consistent rules.
Azurath said:
Oh? What engagement rules?
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Basically, you can't target civilians at all, you have to only engage military targets and aim to minimize collateral damage. 'Only hit hard targets' is what it amounts to really, completely unsustainable by such a force.
 
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Azurath said:
? Your offering redemption to anyone who wants it. They would all take it. Logic dictates that some would slip through the cracks. And these ones would be stronger for having survived. How am I mistaken?
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Ahem. Circle of truth. Also even if that isn't available they have to fib to an archon. The people smart enough to slip through that are probably too smart to be caught. Also, we now know who these people are and can keep track of them and pounce the second they think of something. Seriously, just because we're being nice doesn't mean we're being stupid.
 
[X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others

For the love of god can we go ahead and never do this again? It was unnecessary (to me) in the first place and has only become more draining/boring as time has gone on.
 
Azurath said:
? Your offering redemption to anyone who wants it. They would all take it. Logic dictates that some would slip through the cracks. And these ones would be stronger for having survived. How am I mistaken?
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Exhibit A: Mantarys is a growing, functional city and not a smoking crater.

Exhibit B: We would be farming this out to the same experts responsible for that success.

Exhibit C: I'm making general statements, not policy ones. Please do not conflate the two.

If I was to clarify this into something like policy, which I never will because I'd just throw it at the Archons, it would be something along the lines of 'Redemption to those whose mortal crimes would not lead to a death sentence'. And they'll still be subject to any penalties, imprisonment, or whatever else that would normally apply in our legal system. This isn't a get out of a jail free card. This is a 'maybe if you're truly sincere and work hard and serve your time, then you'll be free to return to society'. And the people doing this will be Archons. Who are, by word of QM and above evidence, good at this.

TotallyNotEvil said:
Yes, it's a clear delineation and isn't essentially what we were already doing.
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Alright then. Done.

Updated Vote:

Snowfire said:
[X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
-[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - No deployment of WMDs, tactical or otherwise, with a civilian population as the primary target.
-[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
--[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
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Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on May 2, 2019 at 12:59 PM, finished with 305613 posts and 54 votes.
  • [X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - No deployment of WMDs, tactical or otherwise, with a civilian population as the primary target.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    --[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
    ---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
    ---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
    ---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
    [X] Abstain
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[X] Snowfire

I'm mostly voting for this for the points about slightly reigning the Inquisition in. Given the ridiculousness of no knock raids in the US, I can't help but sympathize with establishing "Do you really need to do this?" as a guiding principle.

Also I think we can, for lack of better word, afford to go an rehab cultists now. Like way back when we first grew Damphair's tree we didn't have a giant Cadre of experienced Outsider Therapists, antimagic fields for days, or the ability to capture fiends with much higher sacrifice value. So back then, if we wanted OG goodies, possibly redeemable minor cultists go to the tree. The general situation is different enough now that I think we're in a better position to extend mercy even when it's not the most convinient thing. And yes this is hardly a "good" mindset but if we can I don't see why we shouldn't change course now that we have more resources and a more stable kingdom.
 
Snowfire said:
If I was to clarify this into something like policy, which I never will because I'd just throw it at the Archons, it would be something along the lines of 'Redemption to those whose mortal crimes would not lead to a death sentence'.
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That sounds horrible so i guess it's better that we won't clarify it. We'd already established, for good reasons, that being a cultist is a mortal crime which leads to a death sentence. Being a cultist is like knowingly playing around with nuclear material.
TotallyNotEvil said:
And?

It's conclusive evidence that there's more to being good or evil than what would seem in the first place.

It's becomes a subtle issue when you can have someone like Xor.
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It's an edge case that only applies to good beings from the Far Realm. Mortals or anyone else who isn't from the Far Realm, or evil or uncaring beings from the Far Realm can't apply it. Their minds are different. Where you and I know instinctively that causes have effects that are consistent, to Xor this is an intriguing new property, if one he's grasped quickly.
 
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065tdsa said:
That sounds horrible so i guess it's better that we won't clarify it. We'd already established, for good reasons, that being a cultist is a mortal crime which leads to a death sentence. Being a cultist is like knowingly playing around with nuclear material.

It's an edge case that only applies to good beings from the Far Realm. Mortals or anyone else who isn't from the Far Realm can't apply it. Their minds are different.
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There can be good devils and evil angels.

Drow were "always evil".
Yet Drizzt existed,
 
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Negentropy said:
[X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
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There needs to be some direction to this vote. The current 'change' vote is mine, quoted a few posts up. If you're supportive of that, then the easiest thing to do would be to namevote myself. Unless you have a certain direction you'd like to see explored, of course.
 
I refuse to let people say redemption isn't possible given the shit we went through to get those Enryies. Or are we forgetting just why we invited the avatar of Mammon into our plain of existence?
 
chryssalideater said:
I refuse to let people say redemption isn't possible given the shit we went through to get those Enryies. Or are we forgetting just why we invited the avatar of Mammon into our plain of existence?
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Most of that was down to "MORE THINGS FOR THE HORDE" than anything else, to be fair. Of course, that in some ways makes the point pretty clear.
 
Look, you just confirmed that exception to the rule exists and that smart ones will get away. You also told me that these people will be followed AFTER they are released, using more manpower and resources on them. Furthermore, you haven't addressed how these smart ones will now hate us and have gained power from the trials we put them through. So in my eyes, this sounds like a project that will continuously drain funds while reforming 99percent of the cultists and a 1 percent that has now been let free into the establishment as lvled freedman who hate us.
 
[X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others

A leader must be someone who is willing to make the hard choices no matter what the consequences may be.
 
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