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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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@Snowfire, just as a side note, feel free to write up something for the next month as a MA to redeem cultists.
I do not mind it, like you predicted. :V
It's just this particular vote where I'm not willing to vote for this change.
 
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The crazy demon said:
Sure

But I'm quite disappointed it had to come out of the blue due to OOC reasons, anyone other than Syrax has more weigh to their word. And if it Syrax was the only that could right now this shouldn't have happened right now.
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The reason I chose Syrax is because I needed someone who knows Viserys' deepest secrets and motivations. That basically narrowed it down to Bloodraven, Dany and Syrax.
  1. Bloodraven would not have taken this approach for reasons to do with characterization (he does not do direct approaches)
  2. Dany was with you though all these actions so it would have felt fake to just have her suffer an ethical revelation
 
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I'd still think Rhaella should have been the one to do it down the line.

Its not like we wouldn't show her the basement where we do all the shady stuff as her magic powers grow
 
Artemis1992 said:
[x] Snowfire

@Snowfire I'm against restricting use of WMDs, but redeeming cultists is generally a good idea.

Just unfortunate that we won't be redeeming the interesting ones, because those are also the ones to dangerous for any institution, safe for a bottle in the larder.
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Hardened stone cells with an internal AMF. The walls have a core of hardened Steel, Lead and then a permanent Wall of Force. VS or Adamantine manacles.

It's possible, but the main thing is that the interesting cultists are far less likely to be willing to be redeemed.

egoo said:
@Snowfire, just as a side note, feel free to write up something for the next month as a MA to redeem cultists.
I do not mind it, like you predicted. :V
It's just this particular vote where I'm not willing to vote for this change.
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Which really confuses me, bluntly, given how perfect the narrative is for it. But sure, whatever.

DragonParadox said:
The reason I chose Syrax is because I needed someone who knows Viserys' deepest secrets and motivations. That basically narrowed it down to Bloodraven, Dany and Syrax.
  1. Bloodraven would not have taken this approach for reasons to do with characterization (he does not do direct approaches)
  2. Dany was with you though all these actions so it would have felt fake to just have her suffer an ethical revelation
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I think you did the best you could with what you have, and tackled a very difficult issue in the process. Thank you. Rhaella might have been better in retrospect, and could be a good character for Viserys to go to after this dream to work out where he wants to go in terms of the narrative choice, but apart from that, no complaints.

She's still his mother, and her Knowledge skills mean she knows a lot.
 
Snowfire said:
But if we can extend mercy to the literal spawn of hell then we can do it to those seeking redemption for their sins in consorting with the same powers.
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That's a fair point.

But you might as well copy paste this entire following bit as an addendum: "Sit down with all the leaders and influencers of the inquisition and have a talk".
Algalon said:
This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?

When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.

If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens
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As this is insightful as fuck.
Algalon said:
Alternative, maybe just putting DP on ignore might work
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And this is why we have the Inquisition, to stop this kind of heresy!
DragonParadox said:
I don't know guys I keep messing things up as I try to fix them. Sometimes I just think the thread is unsalvageable and causes more trouble than it brings enjoyment. :(
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DP, you are no stranger to other quests. This is literally one of the most harmonious quests in the site.

If there was no discord whatsoever, it'd mean there are no real choices.
 
[X] Snowfire.

EDITED: At least until I finish catching up and actually see the new version of your vote, might change it back if I like the old one more.
2nd EDIT: Caught up, yep, I really like Algalon's thoughts on the inquisition so I'll happily support your current platform.
 
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Destrark said:
[X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
-[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
-[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
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I've modified my plan since. If you support it, I'd suggest a namevote as it's likely to be modified further in the attempt to achieve consensus.
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on May 2, 2019 at 10:56 AM, finished with 305497 posts and 39 votes.
  • [X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    --[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
    ---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
    ---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
    ---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
    [X] Abstain
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Azurath said:
Can a cultist repent? Did they not already give their souls to one of the lords of Hell?

Edit: I'm not questioning if a cultist would want to repent, more that if they could turn back now that Hell has a finger on their soul.
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Most of them can, if they have specifically signed a contract selling their soul to a Fiend, then they might need to do something extra to get out of damnation, but 9 out of 10 cultists can indeed just repent if they want to.
 
DragonParadox said:
I genuinely apologize for the fact that his feels shehorned in



I'm sorry that this is frustrating for you.

I don't know guys I keep messing things up as I try to fix them. Sometimes I just think the thread is unsalvageable and causes more trouble than it brings enjoyment. :(
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Even without some voters staying to contribute, from my talks with a couple of other users, I could be banned tomorrow and this thread would be just as good as it was yesterday.

It's just that I get really frustrated when I feel like my intelligence is insulted. Not really so much that you're intentionally doing so, more that you think you have to make everyone happy but I am perfectly happy not being pleased by the direction the story goes.

If people put just as much effort to quash my policy making votes with an alternative perspective, I would be happy, but this is literally just unilaterally stepping on that to avoid having to win a series of votes that could have organically lead to a similar result. It implies laziness not just in writing but in the people posting here.

I would happily accept a thread ban if more new people would join the pool of regular posters, point for fact, I've said more than enough things to warrant at least a suspension in the past.
 
Destrark said:
[X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
-[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
-[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
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Do me a solid and change that to [X] Snowfire, we're trying to prevent vote fragmentation.
 
MTB said:
Depending on your reasoning in the write-up, I may vote for that.
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I've basically ripped out the section from @Algalon that TNE quoted and pushed it in as a 'this is something we need to talk about' with the Inquisition. It's connected to the idea of allowing for redemption of cultists who wish to seek it. Obviously, any cultists who do seek redemption will be held to account for their purely mortal crimes, but if they're willing to face that crucible and succeed in emerging stable again, then I'm all for the Inquisition being a little less uncaring authoritarian in their stance towards captives.

Current plan for reference:

Snowfire said:
[X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
-[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
-[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
--[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
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I truly consider the Lannisport weapon irrelevant as a WMD and we always considered such things in a case by case basis

Vyseris can cause just as much damage and even more with a Firebrand, lets not even consider what happens with a Shadow of the Doom miscast
 
Snowfire said:
I've basically ripped out the section from @Algalon that TNE quoted and pushed it in as a 'this is something we need to talk about' with the Inquisition. It's connected to the idea of allowing for redemption of cultists who wish to seek it. Obviously, any cultists who do seek redemption will be held to account for their purely mortal crimes, but if they're willing to face that crucible and succeed in emerging stable again, then I'm all for the Inquisition being a little less uncaring authoritarian in their stance towards captives.
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Don't like the WMD restriction, and don't like the silver of justice. We already have laws in place, and I for one choose to err on the side of safety when it comes to consorting with fiends.
I'm fully on board with the anti-dehumanization campaign, but that implies we have to invent psychological treatment and to come up with longterm leaves for scarred inquisitors to give them time to find their balance again (I guess, they'd need PTSD treatment?).
 
The crazy demon said:
I truly consider the Lannisport weapon irrelevant as a WMD and we always considered such things in a case by case basis

Vyseris can cause just as much damage and even more with a Firebrand, lets not even consider what happens with a Shadow of the Doom miscast
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Honestly I agree there. The whole restriction of "WMD" in reference to Lannisport is frankly something I do not agree with. Lannisport's deaths happened due to Tywin. At most all we cause was economic damage.
 
So, breaking it down:
DragonParadox said:
-[] Limit the power of the inquisition to spy on your own citizenry (Write in)
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So, we clearly can't do this, as it was shown they did bust a cultist in the nick of time, but the current vote Snowie adresses the issues we need.
DragonParadox said:
-[] Further limit what you can use as sacrifice (Write in)
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I don't see a need for this, we have a pretty good "mortal punishements for mortal crimes" policy already.
DragonParadox said:
-[] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction (Write in)
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I'm not seeing the need to do this as it's always a case by case scenario, but sure.
DragonParadox said:
-[] Put precautions in place in the case of human experimentation/flesh-forging (Write in)
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This should have been included from the start.
DragonParadox said:
-[] Do not Create the Mammon Machine
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Can't afford that.
DragonParadox said:
-[] Try to limit the grain crises you had set up (Write in)
-[] Be more careful in your intrigues about causing avoidable deaths (Write in)
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Tbh I don't even remember the exact form of the grain crisis we set up. Selling the fertility ritual to Littlefinger so it could spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms, leading to lower grain prices, leading to... I dunno, devalorization of currency? Not sure how to ameliorate that.

We can try to be more careful with avoidable deaths on our intrigues, but I'd say we already do as good of a job as we can on that field, as we only do pursue thoise avoidable deaths when avoiding them would endanger the scheme.
 
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