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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Honestly, I'm fine with Local Hero, I just went for Old Guard because I want the early game challenge. It's no biggie either way, just personal preference.

@Simon_Jester yeah, I doubt Victoria will send token forces to deal with what looks to be the remnants of a mechanized or armored calvary battalion, I'd expect at least a brigade strength expedition at minimum if they go for direct military confrontation. I do wonder if they might go for the same approach as dealing with California, hire mercenaries and let them do the fighting, or alternatively, secretly arm rival powers, it's a mistake to assume that the fascists won't play subtle.

EDIT: Vote Tally
Adhoc vote count started by Lazer Raptor on Mar 22, 2019 at 3:42 PM, finished with 235 posts and 97 votes.
  • [X][BOSS] Local Hero: You first came to prominence as a young woman during the neo-Nazi occupation of the northern Midwest. You fought back against them, helped to throw them out, and presided over the slow emptying of Chicago in the aftermath. Since then you've been managing the city and keeping it on life support. You've slowly built things back up and forged a new state around your home. You will see things fixed once more. You will ensure that your home never again knows the terror of being at a monster's mercy. You will do what is necessary, to the shores of Maine if you must.
    [X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
    -[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
    ... and 20 more.
    [x][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards.
    [X][BOSS] The Last Echo: You were chosen as Secretary of State by a woman who had been Speaker of the House before those before her in the line of succession died in transit to a safe location amid the chaos of the Collapse. You were confirmed by the last Congress of the United States minutes later. You served your President for years before a Russian assassin killed her and most of her cabinet, and you took up her role. By the slimmest of technicalities and a lot of bluffing, you hold a position that grants you precedence in the eyes of many. You convinced Chicago to call the Congress; you presided. It has been years, and you have been hunted for all of them. You have no room left in your heart for nostalgia. This country is a broken thing. No matter how much it must change, you will see it fixed and better than before. And once you serve a country that deserves the pride of the United States, you will tear Alexander from his throne.
    [x][BOSS] The Last Echo
    [X][BOSS] The Old Guard
    [X][BOSS] Local Hero
    [x][BOSS] Springfield Schemer: Illinois did not fall to the Nazis. The state government pulled through all of the chaos just fine...and when you came to the Governor's office, you made sure to keep an eye on things. When Chicago started pulling itself together, you were far-sighted enough to recognize the opportunity. You left for Chicago and put your political skills to work on trying to build something bigger than your own patch. A fair amount of people have taken your foresight for aggression, though. You will need to keep your eyes about you.
    [X][BOSS] The Old Boss: The Daleys have been big names in Chicago since the '50s. The 1950s. A hundred and twenty years of political prominence will grind itself in. You're no different. Your family managed to hold onto its influence throughout the collapse, and you were the one to take charge of things afterward, leveraging various friendships you made during the bad years. Chicago's been on the outs too long. The Daleys will be the ones to bring it back.
    [x][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards.
    [X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.​

    -[X][GOV] Cave in on the unions issue. You're a little leery of granting them that much power, but it's not like there's no need for strong unions. ​
    [X][BOSS] The Last Echo: You were chosen as Secretary of State by a woman who had been Speaker of the House before those before her in the line of succession died in transit to a safe location amid the chaos of the Collapse. You were confirmed by the last Congress of the United States minutes later. You served your President for years before a Russian assassin killed her and most of her cabinet, and you took up her role. By the slimmest of technicalities and a lot of bluffing, you hold a position that grants you precedence in the eyes of many. You convinced Chicago to call the Congress; you presided. It has been years, and you have been hunted for all of them. You have no room left in your heart for nostalgia. This country is a broken thing. No matter how much it must change, you will see it fixed and better than before. And once you serve a country that deserves the pride of the United States, you will tear Alexander from his throne.
    -[X][GOV] Play the Socialists and the New Capitalists against each other in order to compromise on nothing. Roll a d100 with a DC of 70 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, one of them backs out. On a success, your government looks extremely competent.
    [x][BOSS] ???
    [X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
    -[X][GOV] Cave in on the unions issue. You're a little leery of granting them that much power, but it's not like there's no need for strong unions.
    [X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
    -[X][GOV] Play the Socialists and the New Capitalists against each other in order to compromise on nothing. Roll a d100 with a DC of 70 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, one of them backs out. On a success, your government looks extremely competent.
    [X][GOV] Play the Socialists and the New Capitalists against each other in order to compromise on nothing. Roll a d100 with a DC of 70 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, one of them backs out. On a success, your government looks extremely competent.
    [X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
    -[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
    [X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
    [X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
    -[X][GOV] Cave to the Socialists on healthcare and the New Capitalists on unions.
    [X][GOV] Do not form a coalition. Rule with a minority government.
    [X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
    -[X][GOV] Cave to the Socialists on healthcare and the New Capitalists on unions. Roll a d100 with a DC of 50 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, the New Capitalists back out.
Click to expand...
 
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Lazer Raptor said:
it's a mistake to assume that the fascists won't play subtle.
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Especially when subtle, sneaky irregular warfare is the Vickies' hat (mostly because Lind was a huge proponent of 4th Gen Warfare). As much as they're likely to have significant conventional advantages over us for multiple solid reasons we have to assume they're going to play sneaky and dirty because that's how they roll. Every single time Rumford, in the source material (read the Let's Read, GODS that was painful), was given a choice between a conventional and unconventional option he always took or pushed for the unconventional one even if that meant doing stuff that violated the laws of war like it was nobody's business or was a harebrained scheme that only worked thanks to authorial fiat.
 
Old Guard's up by one. There's this massive vote at the bottom that includes it.
Adhoc vote count started by Corripere on Mar 22, 2019 at 4:17 PM, finished with 243 posts and 98 votes.
  • [X][BOSS] Local Hero: You first came to prominence as a young woman during the neo-Nazi occupation of the northern Midwest. You fought back against them, helped to throw them out, and presided over the slow emptying of Chicago in the aftermath. Since then you've been managing the city and keeping it on life support. You've slowly built things back up and forged a new state around your home. You will see things fixed once more. You will ensure that your home never again knows the terror of being at a monster's mercy. You will do what is necessary, to the shores of Maine if you must.
    [X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
    -[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
    ... and 19 more.
    [x][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards.
    [X][BOSS] The Last Echo: You were chosen as Secretary of State by a woman who had been Speaker of the House before those before her in the line of succession died in transit to a safe location amid the chaos of the Collapse. You were confirmed by the last Congress of the United States minutes later. You served your President for years before a Russian assassin killed her and most of her cabinet, and you took up her role. By the slimmest of technicalities and a lot of bluffing, you hold a position that grants you precedence in the eyes of many. You convinced Chicago to call the Congress; you presided. It has been years, and you have been hunted for all of them. You have no room left in your heart for nostalgia. This country is a broken thing. No matter how much it must change, you will see it fixed and better than before. And once you serve a country that deserves the pride of the United States, you will tear Alexander from his throne.
    [x][BOSS] The Last Echo
    [X][BOSS] Local Hero
    [X][BOSS] The Old Guard
    [x][BOSS] Springfield Schemer: Illinois did not fall to the Nazis. The state government pulled through all of the chaos just fine...and when you came to the Governor's office, you made sure to keep an eye on things. When Chicago started pulling itself together, you were far-sighted enough to recognize the opportunity. You left for Chicago and put your political skills to work on trying to build something bigger than your own patch. A fair amount of people have taken your foresight for aggression, though. You will need to keep your eyes about you.
    [X][BOSS] The Old Boss: The Daleys have been big names in Chicago since the '50s. The 1950s. A hundred and twenty years of political prominence will grind itself in. You're no different. Your family managed to hold onto its influence throughout the collapse, and you were the one to take charge of things afterward, leveraging various friendships you made during the bad years. Chicago's been on the outs too long. The Daleys will be the ones to bring it back.
    [x][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards.
    [X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.​

    -[X][GOV] Cave in on the unions issue. You're a little leery of granting them that much power, but it's not like there's no need for strong unions. ​
    [X][BOSS] The Last Echo: You were chosen as Secretary of State by a woman who had been Speaker of the House before those before her in the line of succession died in transit to a safe location amid the chaos of the Collapse. You were confirmed by the last Congress of the United States minutes later. You served your President for years before a Russian assassin killed her and most of her cabinet, and you took up her role. By the slimmest of technicalities and a lot of bluffing, you hold a position that grants you precedence in the eyes of many. You convinced Chicago to call the Congress; you presided. It has been years, and you have been hunted for all of them. You have no room left in your heart for nostalgia. This country is a broken thing. No matter how much it must change, you will see it fixed and better than before. And once you serve a country that deserves the pride of the United States, you will tear Alexander from his throne.
    -[X][GOV] Play the Socialists and the New Capitalists against each other in order to compromise on nothing. Roll a d100 with a DC of 70 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, one of them backs out. On a success, your government looks extremely competent.
    [x][BOSS] ???
    [X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
    -[X][GOV] Cave in on the unions issue. You're a little leery of granting them that much power, but it's not like there's no need for strong unions.
    [X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
    -[X][GOV] Play the Socialists and the New Capitalists against each other in order to compromise on nothing. Roll a d100 with a DC of 70 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, one of them backs out. On a success, your government looks extremely competent.
    [X][GOV] Play the Socialists and the New Capitalists against each other in order to compromise on nothing. Roll a d100 with a DC of 70 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, one of them backs out. On a success, your government looks extremely competent.
    [X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
    -[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
    [X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
    [X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
    -[X][GOV] Cave to the Socialists on healthcare and the New Capitalists on unions.
    [X][GOV] Do not form a coalition. Rule with a minority government.
    [X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
    -[X][GOV] Cave to the Socialists on healthcare and the New Capitalists on unions. Roll a d100 with a DC of 50 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, the New Capitalists back out.
Click to expand...
 
Important state of the world question (cause Lind's shitty writing doesn't address this beyond some pro-Vickie map-painting) @PoptartProdigy :

What actually happened to Canada? IIRC there's been some mentions along the way of them getting hit in the face hard by the collapse but is Canada still a thing? Did it fragment/get fragmented due to Russian/Vickie shenanigans?
 
Ultimately I can live with Old Guard unlike others (Daley for ex.) Who I regard as stop at all costs.

But I have... concerns that picking Old Guard will come with massive compounding opportunity costs that will kneecap us economically and technologically long term, and comes with the chance that we will end up with us on path that ends with the thread ruling an impoverished armed camp with delusions of antediluvian grandeur. A much milder Victoria writ large, no longer even dreaming of someday being a Liberal Democracy or a Worker's Republic.

If we end up with old guard I'm going to do my damndest to ensure that EVERYTHING ELSE goes towards butter and hope we can weather the storm using the old guards as ablative armour for the new state. (Because butter always beats guns.)
 
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Hm... while I really like the Old Guard for flavor, a new slate may appeal too.

Hell, who knows, if we get lucky we might run into more US military remnants as we expand.

[X][BOSS] Local Hero
 
AKuz said:
Ultimately I can live with Old Guard unlike others (Daley for ex.) Who I regard as stop at all costs.

But I have... concerns that picking Old Guard will come with massive compounding opportunity costs that will kneecap us economically and technologically long term, and comes with the chance that we will end up with us on path that ends with the thread ruling an impoverished armed camp with delusions of antediluvian grandeur. A much milder Victoria writ large, no longer even dreaming of someday being a Liberal Democracy or a Worker's Republic.

If we end up with old guard I'm going to do my damndest to ensure that EVERYTHING ELSE goes towards butter and hope we can weather the storm using the old guards as ablative armour for the new state. (Because butter always beats guns.)
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Well, I do want us to at least take Brown Water Navy (which has economic benefits by helping us be secure on the Great Lakes) and something like Good Security would help a lot (because Victorian attention is gonna include spies).

But beyond that... yes.
 
[X][BOSS] Local Hero: You first came to prominence as a young woman during the neo-Nazi occupation of the northern Midwest. You fought back against them, helped to throw them out, and presided over the slow emptying of Chicago in the aftermath. Since then you've been managing the city and keeping it on life support. You've slowly built things back up and forged a new state around your home. You will see things fixed once more. You will ensure that your home never again knows the terror of being at a monster's mercy. You will do what is necessary, to the shores of Maine if you must.

[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the unions issue. You're a little leery of granting them that much power, but it's not like there's no need for strong unions.

[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
​
 
Simon_Jester said:
Well, I do want us to at least take Brown Water Navy (which has economic benefits by helping us be secure on the Great Lakes) and something like Good Security would help a lot (because Victorian attention is gonna include spies).

But beyond that... yes.
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I actually keep forgetting that brown water isnt economic because in my head I keep lumping "no Piracy, open riverine traffic" into that category instead of military.

> : V
 
Simon_Jester said:
Well, I do want us to at least take Brown Water Navy (which has economic benefits by helping us be secure on the Great Lakes) and something like Good Security would help a lot (because Victorian attention is gonna include spies).

But beyond that... yes.
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That's pretty much where I'm at and, like @AKuz said, Brown Water Navy overlaps heavily into the economic sphere thanks to what it does for dealing with pirates and keeping supply lines open.

I mean Brown Water Navy is basically the difference between getting access to Upper Peninsula iron and not.
 
Also, as a side note, with brown water navy, it becomes possible to exploit the massive iron deposits off of Lake Superior. Which at current estimates would be enough iron to keep the entire US fed for over a hundred years. That along with the largest copper deposit in the continental US located just under the tip of Illinois along with significant, zinc, lead, and fluorite deposits in the north of the state(Exploitable with rail lines). To add onto this, the entire state is a massive coal basin, keeping us well supplied in fuel as long as we build enough mines around the area.

Then in terms of oil and boats, there is the Michigan basin, a reasonably large coastal/seaborne oil deposit that's currently not economically viable to exploit, but well, desperate times.

As a funny side note, we would be the only successor state to actually have the local resources to galvanize steel, which would be a critical trade good for building and plumbing.

For a low trade economy running on the equivalent technology of the 1970's, this is basically all of the mineral wealth we could ask for and need for autarky, as long as we can take most of the surrounding lake territory.

Edit: Also as a cultural side note, most of the jewelry in our region is going to be Flourite crystals along with freshwater pearls. Since we basically don't have any forms of precious metal deposits.
 
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Point of order: brown water navy is for rivers; green water navy would give us more/better lake-going vessels (in addition to four cutters that we might be able to spruce up at some point).

Brown water navy will help with the lakes, but it's specifically a riverine navy. River boats will have to stick to the coast of the Lakes, because getting caught out on the Lakes in a storm is no joke.
 
Blackstar said:
Also, as a side note, with brown water navy, it becomes possible to exploit the massive iron deposits off of Lake Superior. Which at current estimates would be enough iron to keep the entire US fed for over a hundred years. That along with the largest copper deposit in the continental US located just under the tip of Illinois along with significant, zinc, lead, and fluorite deposits in the north of the state(Exploitable with rail lines). To add onto this, the entire state is a massive coal basin, keeping us well supplied in fuel as long as we build enough mines around the area.

Then in terms of oil and boats, there is the Michigan basin, a reasonably large coastal/seaborne oil deposit that's currently not economically viable to exploit, but well, desperate times.

As a funny side note, we would be the only successor state to actually have the local resources to galvanize steel, which would be a critical trade good for building and plumbing.

For a low trade economy running on the equivalent technology of the 1970's, this is basically all of the mineral wealth we could ask for and need for autarky, as long as we can take most of the surrounding lake territory.
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The only one of those that's going to be particularly challenging is drilling for oil underwater in a suboptimal deposit. Fuel rationing, along with coal liquefication (which is really expensive, inefficient and involves some specialized tech that's not easy to get/reproduce), is still going to be a thing especially since it's going to take time to build the necessary refining technology to actually make it useful. Different grades of crude require different kinds of refining equipment to handle and some are much easier to refine than others.

I really hope we lucked out and got a crew of petroleum engineers or can find one who have the practical experience working with suboptimal sources.
 
ctulhuslp said:
In my experience in Civ/CK-quests, SV has no friends: only enemies and subjects.
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Hey, you stole my line! :mad:
Derpmind said:
Jeez, cynical much? I follow To Boldly Go, a Star Trek civ quest that's all about making friends and allies. There's been a significant lack of the Federation conquering anyone in that quest.
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That's because we're playing the Federation, and Shark QM would not look kindly upon such attempts anyway.
 
LHB said:
The only one of those that's going to be particularly challenging is drilling for oil underwater in a suboptimal deposit. Fuel rationing, along with coal liquefication (which is really expensive, inefficient and involves some specialized tech that's not easy to get/reproduce), is still going to be a thing especially since it's going to take time to build the necessary refining technology to actually make it useful. Different grades of crude require different kinds of refining equipment to handle and some are much easier to refine than others.

I really hope we lucked out and got a crew of petroleum engineers or can find one who have the practical experience working with suboptimal sources.
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Libraries or Universities would probably help with the specialists. Or even Well-Preserved.
 
Rat King said:
Libraries or Universities would probably help with the specialists. Or even Well-Preserved.
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It'll help but it's worth pointing out that petroleum engineering is one of those subspecialties of geology that tends to be pretty concentrated in terms of which universities have the necessary information and practical knowledge. Somewhere like Texas A&M or the Colorado School of Mines would definitely have that and the closest to us that's listed as a top ten in the field, and thus likely to have that information, is Penn State.

Of course we could also get lucky and end up with something that's Arabian Sweet Light's long-lost cousin. I've had a hard time finding what grade the stuff under the Michigan Basin is probably because it hasn't been tapped due to not being sufficient in quantity to be worthwhile for present-day companies who are more than willing to go after dirty as mud bakken tar sands sludge.
 
LHB said:
The only one of those that's going to be particularly challenging is drilling for oil underwater in a suboptimal deposit. Fuel rationing, along with coal liquefication (which is really expensive, inefficient and involves some specialized tech that's not easy to get/reproduce), is still going to be a thing especially since it's going to take time to build the necessary refining technology to actually make it useful. Different grades of crude require different kinds of refining equipment to handle and some are much easier to refine than others.

I really hope we lucked out and got a crew of petroleum engineers or can find one who has the practical experience working with suboptimal sources.
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I mean, there are regions of it that are on land, its just... deep and hard to get at. Currently at ~100$ per barrel. Realistically speaking though, liquification would work fairly well as we are sitting on the fifth largest US coalfield(going by 1960's era processes around 150$ per barrel). It probably wouldn't be enough oil to run the civilian economy, but, it would be enough for limited military operations. We could always try to electrify as much as we can, as we have near infinate lead, and well, 40-mile range electrics are still better than near unaffordable oil.

Edit: I don't have an exact figure on the cost of the basin, but the main limitation is that it's deep, and under sedentary rock, so I based my estimate on similar conditions.
 
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Blackstar said:
I mean, there are regions of it that are on land, its just... deep and hard to get at. Currently at ~100$ per barrel. Realistically speaking though, liquification would work fairly well as we are sitting on the fifth largest US coalfield(going by 1960's era processes around 150$ per barrel). It probably wouldn't be enough oil to run the civilian economy, but, it would be enough for limited military operations. We could always try to electrify as much as we can, as we have near infinate lead, and well, 40-mile range electrics are still better than near unaffordable oil.
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It's probably going to take a combination of all of the above plus a lot of wood gas which does limit, to an extent, what kind of engines and fuel we will have to work with. Anything that isn't electrified that needs a combustion engine is going to need to have some pretty broad tolerances when it comes to fuel quality and will likely also be maintenance heavy.

In other words steam engines are going to be making a comeback for most of the civilian economy for the foreseeable future though we're probably not going to see anything as ridiculous as Drakaverse autosteamers, mostly because those are hilariously inefficient.
 
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