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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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[X] Azel

I still feel the pain of treachery of Walder!P in OTL.

Pragmatically I hope he accepts

Personally? I hope he starts shit so we could kill the effin bastard
 
XelianEmperor said:
[X] Azel

I still feel the pain of treachery of Walder!P in OTL.

Pragmatically I hope he accepts

Personally? I hope he starts shit so we could kill the effin bastard
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A good way of looking at things tbh. He is someone no one (or very few) in the thread has the warmest feelings toward but he is someone we are willing to work with because he, to an extent, will be useful. That and we can use his castle as a base to swarm the Riverlands and supply the Lads if need be.
 
What people love to forget is that Robb betrayed Walder Prime first...

We can talk about overreactions brought on by Tywins prodding, but the Red Wedding wasn't unprovoked or entirely unjustified. By this time Robb had broken a bethrothal, killed one of his most loyal bannermen and generally shat on all politics while Catelyn was merrily undermining his authority by doing her own crap and not even getting so much as reprimanded for it.
 
Azel said:
[X] Plan The Shape Of Things To Come
-[X] "The full plan is not yet ripe to be revealed, for there are too many plots and agreements buried within that need their secrecy for now, lest some Lion decides to set the kingdom alight before everything is in place. What I can give you though are a few details and some thoughts, so you may see the shape of things." // Truth. Half of our Westerosi allies don't even properly know of each other and nobody except us and Bloodraven knows any details of the plots going on there.
-[X] "My house was betrayed by all kingdoms save one. The North, the Vale and the Stormlands rose in open rebellion. Hoster Tully sold his loyalty for two betrothals. And while the Fat Flower sat in the Stormlands with most of his army and doing as his name suggests, the Lion came into the capital under the banner of peace to burn it to the ground and slay every member of my family he could find. I'm almost willing to give the Iron Born a pass for their role in it all, because only a fool would have expected anything else from Balon Greyjoy then what he did." // A short summary of the Ursupation. And yes, I do very much have a grudge against the Tyrells here. Had they moved to Kings Landing when news came from the Trident, the sack and the defeat of the Targs could have been averted. Instead they sat on the sidelines and made sure to not be too unpleasant an ally to the new order.
-[X] "So, Lord Frey, if you were in my position, what would you do with this lot?" // Spoiler: He wouldn't be pleasant to them. We intentionally don't give our own answer to this, but Walder Prime should get the gist of it. Things will suck for the Lords Paramount. Big time.
-[X] "As for Hoster Tully in particular, I share your opinion on the Tully rule of the Riverlands. It was a unmitigated disaster since the day it started. I'm content to let them keep Riverrun and a few of their banner-men, but they will have a new Lord above them and it won't be a Riverlander. There is little point in burdening whoever would be the Tullys new Lord with the impression that he is their replacement." // Honest opinion. Whoever get's the Tullys would be painted as the new Lord Paramount and have to deal with most of the garbage that before was thrown at them. No point to it.
-[X] "There will be no more Riverlands. There will be a split, to ensure that the new realms are stable and not plagued by the infighting of current times. And if you swear yourself to me, the northern part of the Riverlands is yours, with no Lord above you, save me. I assume that this is what you wanted to hear?" // The part of the division most relevant to him. I could rattle of provinces here, but we already tacitly agreed to his demands for precisely what we wanted to give him anyway, save for Riverrun.


Edit: Let's be clear about one thing. The only reason the Tyrells didn't sell us out just like the Tullys is that they didn't have any daughters to do so. Were Margery born five years earlier, she would be sitting with Renly in Storms End by the time canon rolled around and Mace would have some inconsequential role on the Small Council.
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It really says something when Walder Prime is the Lord we choose to finally unload all this baggage on as a negotiation tactic.

"Everyone betrayed me, I'm fed up with this world.

So now it's time to build a new one."
 
Azel said:
What people love to forget is that Robb betrayed Walder Prime first...

We can talk about overreactions brought on by Tywins prodding, but the Red Wedding wasn't unprovoked or entirely unjustified. By this time Robb had broken a bethrothal, killed one of his most loyal bannermen and generally shat on all politics while Catelyn was merrily undermining his authority by doing her own crap and not even getting so much as reprimanded for it.
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Not to mention with Joffrey marrying Margery and the Ironborn rampaging in the North, Robb's cause was completely fucked.
 
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Azel said:
What people love to forget is that Robb betrayed Walder Prime first...

We can talk about overreactions brought on by Tywins prodding, but the Red Wedding wasn't unprovoked or entirely unjustified. By this time Robb had broken a bethrothal, killed one of his most loyal bannermen and generally shat on all politics while Catelyn was merrily undermining his authority by doing her own crap and not even getting so much as reprimanded for it.
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So what you are saying is that if Robb or Jon ever come to learn at our universities that they should learn basic political theory. In all seriousness while the reaction was over the top you are right in that Robb did betray them first. Of course the Red Wedding decided to literally tear the seam on guests right so...I don't know what the worst consequence of the wedding was.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
So what you are saying is that if Robb or Jon ever come to learn at our universities that they should learn basic political theory. In all seriousness while the reaction was over the top you are right in that Robb did betray them first. Of course the Red Wedding decided to literally tear the seam on guests right so...I don't know what the worst consequence of the wedding was.
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Robb needs to learn political theory from anyone in any form who isn't Catelyn or Ned.

It's been pointed out that Ned isn't a dull bulb, and Catelyn is actually clever, but neither is prone to making decisions that actually best suit their families when it actually matters.

I mean, for character flaws, they are really glaring when they result in the near annihilation of your entire House and family.

Far as Jon goes, the most he has to worry about is letting his ego get too big at any point, but I think Lyanna actually has a handle on that. Much as I'm not delighted by the idea of Ghost-Mom hovering over his shoulder, she would be quick to point something like that out.
 
Robb was doomed the moment he let his lords declare him King in the North.

In one stupid move he immediately alienated both Baratheon brothers from him when either of them could have been vital allies against the Lannisters.
One Autumn Leaf said:
So what you are saying is that if Robb or Jon ever come to learn at our universities that they should learn basic political theory. In all seriousness while the reaction was over the top you are right in that Robb did betray them first. Of course the Red Wedding decided to literally tear the seam on guests right so...I don't know what the worst consequence of the wedding was.
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Yeah, probably. A few years at our universities would do wonders.
 
Crake said:
Far as Jon goes, the most he has to worry about is letting his ego get too big at any point, but I think Lyanna actually has a handle on that. Much as I'm not delighted by the idea of Ghost-Mom hovering over his shoulder, she would be quick to point something like that out.
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Ghost-mom is a problem we need to deal with. I am not a psychologist...wait actually @Snowfire what would you say would be the short-term consequences of ghost mom? Best case scenario.

Edit: There is no best case scenario is there?
 
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Crake said:
It really says something when Walder Prime is the Lord we choose to finally unload all this baggage on as a negotiation tactic.

"Everyone betrayed me, I'm fed up with this world.

So now it's time to build a new one."
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Let's be fair, nobody asked in this grade of detail before. The Royces are happy with the knowledge that they will be on top of the Vale when everything is said and done. Doran is happy because we promised him that Dorne would be the first in Westeros after this and that Tywin, Lorch and Gregor Clegane would shuffle off the mortal coil. Monford and Brune are happy if they are allowed to leave the dog house.

Walder wants more and he is in a decent bargaining position. Might as well tell him how the new order will look like and whose bodies it's built on.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
Ghost-mom is a problem we need to deal with. I am not a psychologist...wait actually @Snowfire what would you say would be the short-term consequences of ghost mom? Best case scenario.
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I have some notes, but they're a bit fragmentary and will require some more interaction with her. The outright simplest solution is to just ress her, but I expect there will be portions of the thread violently against that. The reason I like it, though, is because right now the nature of her existence as a ghost is probably a minor form of torture at best.

To actually get somewhere with her, we need to show proof of good intentions. The most effective way of doing that would be to ease that continous pain, and the only way I know of to do so would be to bring her back. This would also have the side benefit of welding the Starks to neutrality, if not tacit support of us in the reconquest.
 
Crake said:
Robb needs to learn political theory from anyone in any form who isn't Catelyn or Ned.

It's been pointed out that Ned isn't a dull bulb, and Catelyn is actually clever, but neither is prone to making decisions that actually best suit their families when it actually matters.

I mean, for character flaws, they are really glaring when they result in the near annihilation of your entire House and family.

Far as Jon goes, the most he has to worry about is letting his ego get too big at any point, but I think Lyanna actually has a handle on that. Much as I'm not delighted by the idea of Ghost-Mom hovering over his shoulder, she would be quick to point something like that out.
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Both Ned and Catelyn share the flaw of being far too trusting. On top of that, Ned puts too much stock in honour, and Catelyn is too focused on her family to the point where she us blind to the world and causes more problems then she solves. See the whole kangaroo court she had Lysa hold for Tyrion. That was rank stupidity for the sake of revenge. It's telling how she acts as Lady Stoneheart.

The result is the cavalcade of fuck ups that is canon.

I'm very happy with our quite different approach to politics. Everyone is suspected as a self-serving, duplicitous bastard until proven otherwise. And for those people where we know that they are traitorous? Their coffins are ready before we spoke the first word with them.

*grins and waves to Littlefinger*
 
For the Jon and Ghost Lyanna thing....I don't really think its good. Ghost Lyanna using no logic because she is a Ghost right? After everything she did she thinks no blame can be put on her because she died. What you think she's telling Jon? My guess is she's saying he's the best and not to trust the Targs that had no involvement with her bad experiences.
 
mrsean22 said:
For the Jon and Ghost Lyanna thing....I don't really think its good. Ghost Lyanna using no logic because she is a Ghost right? After everything she did she thinks no blame can be put on her because she died. What you think she's telling Jon? My guess is she's saying he's the best and not to trust the Targs that had no involvement with her bad experiences.
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She uses Ghost Logic, which is similar to Pants on Head Logic.
 
mrsean22 said:
For the Jon and Ghost Lyanna thing....I don't really think its good. Ghost Lyanna using no logic because she is a Ghost right? After everything she did she thinks no blame can be put on her because she died. What you think she's telling Jon? My guess is she's saying he's the best and not to trust the Targs that had no involvement with her bad experiences.
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I imagine that Dany has been talking to him in the dream world considering we never told her to stop. So he has a counterbalance to the whole "Ghost mom ideas". Also the Targ family has a strange relations tree. Like not in the incest variety just this current generation.
 
mrsean22 said:
For the Jon and Ghost Lyanna thing....I don't really think its good. Ghost Lyanna using no logic because she is a Ghost right? After everything she did she thinks no blame can be put on her because she died. What you think she's telling Jon? My guess is she's saying he's the best and not to trust the Targs that had no involvement with her bad experiences.
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This is part of why a resurrection would be an effective plan, as it short-circuits her logic tree.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
I imagine that Dany has been talking to him in the dream world considering we never told her to stop. So he has a counterbalance to the whole "Ghost mom ideas". Also the Targ family has a strange relations tree. Like not in the incest variety just this current generation.
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"This current generation" is a bold thing to say when uncle Aemon is in his 90s and greatest uncle Brynden is... 120...ish?
 
Dealing with Ghost Mom will be easy: all we have to do is make John a powerful enough spellcaster by the time he hits 16, and he'll do a stupid teenager thing (TM) and fix the problem for us somehow.
We can rescue him from the fallout if we need to, but he's a YA protagonist: he'll manage.
 
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