And some of us are disgusted at the idea of Viserys as someone who don't care, as opposed to someone who can make the hard decisions, but still feel guilt, especially when it hit children.
Look, you keep ranting about murdering all the slavers, so I'm taking your moral judgements with a few hands of salt.

Also, a good deal of our decisions aren't hard. They are pragmatic. Maximum benefit for us, maximum damage for our enemies.

A few riots in Kings Landing are great for us and who cares that few peasants are going to die? So divine proclamation it was.
 
It's definitely under represented even so.

Actually it is under represented even by the dint of Viserys having more experience with that stuff. Since when has the times when he actually was in awe of what he's accomplished been the central focus of any update?

It's not even a matter of not letting his overweaning pride get ahead of himself, he has literally not had appropriate reactions to doing anything on the outside of incredible that it actually is. Half of the stuff we're talking about that got pathetic internal reactions are so incredible that we feel even Viserys should have felt more than a slight tinge of satisfaction from them.

Creating a network of guard posts or establishing another Scholarum in a city he's conquered or annexed? Fine, small satisfaction, he's done that before.

Building a giant network that can reach across timeless infinities and bring entire WORLDS closer in so many ways?

PATHETIC.

Fair criticism thank you. I think I may be overcompensating since characters who constantly congratulate themselves in internal monologues are the ones I find the most frustrating.
 
And some of us are disgusted at the idea of Viserys as someone who don't care, as opposed to someone who can make the hard decisions, but still feel guilt, especially when it hit children.
Except in this particular bit, which sparked the current salt, didn't involved him actually doing anything wrong, yet he felt personally guilty over the kids deaths, yet at the same time he didn't had a problem sending people to their deaths or committing sabotage acts that likely made thousands utterly miserable.

Also people were expecting Viserys not to feel misguided guilty, not to retroactively feel guilty over things he never did @DragonParadox
 
Bit that's the thing. He is a demi-god. He plays with the lives of humans. They are numbers on a report or casualty statistic.

What we see is sometimes veering into a Jesus expy, feeling guilty over suffering he didn't even cause and having deep seated hang ups over causing it himself.

Then he turns around and uses a man as a glorified sock puppet to keep his hands clean from murdering half the ruling class of a city. He orchestrates the death if 15,000 people to make a point. He caused riots in Kings Landing and attacked Lannisport with a bio-weapon that likely killed hundreds and ruined the life of thousands in revenge.

How deeply delusional must this person be to see himself as a paragon while wantonly committing atrocities on the ants around him?
I think the reason that he felt guilt here, was because while logically he could do nothing, that spell made him experience what happened to the children, as if he just stood and watched, and even if logically that wasn't what happened, it felt that way, and standing and watching while children are tortured to death, is the kind of thing that even when it's only in the irrational part of his mind that's what happened, it's so viscerally evil that it caused him to feel guilt for not stopping it.

If he had merely heard about it, then he wouldn't have had that reaction, but the spell forced him to watch it, and that made him feel as if he was a bystander, just standing there while it happened.
 
Fair criticism thank you. I think I may be overcompensating since characters who constantly congratulate themselves in internal monologues are the ones I find the most frustrating.

You definitely overcompensated, it took literal years to get you to stop pawning off Viserys' own accomplishments onto other characters, even when it didn't make narrative sense. Lya was in front of EVERY breakthrough for awhile there.

You finally eased off that, but the artifacts of Viserys never being satisfied, or at least coming off like that, has not left the story yet.
 
Also @DragonParadox I agree 100% with Ryuan and @Azel.

The appropriate reaction to that last update wasn't "god I am horrible why can I not stop such senseless brutality like some kind of God?" When we know that Visersy disdains being attributed to some kind of divine mandate.

His real reaction should have been "I will unmake EVERYTHING that you are for the harm you have done to me and mine" and disgust at their actions, but not guilt.

I get your perspective on it though and I don't condemn you for writing that way, it just has zero build-up, which you've already acknowledged.
 
Though to be honest we can chalk that up as an aspect of Targaryen madness. It's been a while since that was pointed out.

Danny have SLAVERY!!! and Viserys might have a messianic complex.

The guilt could work in that context if you have people point out the complex not his actions.
 
Though to be honest we can chalk that up as an aspect of Targaryen madness. It's been a while since that was pointed out.

Danny have SLAVERY!!! and Viserys might have a messianic complex.

The guilt could work in that context if you have people point out the complex not his actions.

Yes. This.
 
You definitely overcompensated, it took literal years to get you to stop pawning off Viserys' own accomplishments onto other characters, even when it didn't make narrative sense. Lya was in front of EVERY breakthrough for awhile there.

You finally eased off that, but the artifacts of Viserys never being satisfied, or at least coming off like that, has not left the story yet.

I'll do my best to improve. If you guys catch a place where I'm not giving an adequate reaction feel free to point it out and I'll look into fixing it.
 
Also @DragonParadox I agree 100% with Ryuan and @Azel.

The appropriate reaction to that last update wasn't "god I am horrible why can I not stop such senseless brutality like some kind of God?" When we know that Visersy disdains being attributed to some kind of divine mandate.

His real reaction should have been "I will unmake EVERYTHING that you are for the harm you have done to me and mine" and disgust at their actions, but not guilt.

I get your perspective on it though and I don't condemn you for writing that way, it just has zero build-up, which you've already acknowledged.
I 100% agree with this, @DragonParadox. I was looking forward to Viserys just going into a black fucking rage and rampaging on a bunch of utter scum, but then the focus of the update was on his utterly irrational, both logically and emotionally, guilt/messiah complex, yet again. Killing the damn things ended up just being an afterthought, and then it was on to King's Landing. It ... it was pretty weak, to be completely honest. I dunno about everyone else but I was looking forward to some catharsis.

I think the problem was just that it all needed to be longer. It felt like two updates crammed into one, which just cheapened and devalued everything that was represented.
 
Though to be honest we can chalk that up as an aspect of Targaryen madness. It's been a while since that was pointed out.

Danny have SLAVERY!!! and Viserys might have a messianic complex.

The guilt could work in that context if you have people point out the complex not his actions.
He's had that for a while. Taking responsibility over the whole world is not something normal people do. Usual world conquerors are the type to enjoy ruling but not see it as a responsibility. And usual responsible rulers put 'even more people who need my attention' very low in the list of things they want to get.
 
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Moving right along. We have a spider to pin down.

[X] Attempt to learn as much of Varys' daily schedule as possible without being discovered, including his regular contacts, and who they, in turn, regularly interact with.
-[X] The Madame of the Brother will be kept under Mind Blank, renewed by Dany or Viserys as needed, until this mission is concluded.
 
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[X] Goldfish
also, @Goldfish, please add bottling that woman Dany put under Mindblank.
No reason risking that thing dropping and Varys suddenly getting some divine help over being discovered.
We'll unbottle her after dealing with him.
 
[X] Goldfish
also, @Goldfish, please add bottling that woman Dany put under Mindblank.
No reason risking that thing dropping and Varys suddenly getting some divine help over being discovered.
We'll unbottle her after dealing with him.
Good catch. I've added keeping her Mind Blanked during this mission. Dany or Viserys can do it. She's a valuable contact and can help us complete the necessary tasks to deal with Varys.
 
Then we're generally agreed. I'm just concerned that parts of the thread really will not like this. That's no reason not to do it, but facing those consequences will have, well, consequences. I'm prepared to deal with those. You seem so too.

We're not the entire thread.

And now I have a two hour drive that I've already delayed talking here. I'll look back in when I've arrived, but don't expect any more replies until then.

Atleast from myside i would be very happy to see more of the consequences of doing what we are doing too few quest do that.

We aren´t playing a "good" char, but a good kind/ruler and that means we will order the death of thousands for PR, just to weaken other we nations or just ruin the eco of citys and towns for the same effect and more to the same effects.
I really prefer seeing these thing play out were we can "see" it and not hide it in the background so that we don´t have to think about just how much blood our char has on his hands.
 
I 100% agree with this, @DragonParadox. I was looking forward to Viserys just going into a black fucking rage and rampaging on a bunch of utter scum, but then the focus of the update was on his utterly irrational, both logically and emotionally, guilt/messiah complex, yet again. Killing the damn things ended up just being an afterthought, and then it was on to King's Landing. It ... it was pretty weak, to be completely honest. I dunno about everyone else but I was looking forward to some catharsis.

I think the problem was just that it all needed to be longer. It felt like two updates crammed into one, which just cheapened and devalued everything that was represented.

The thing is killing them is trivial for Viserys so I could not really focus on the fight. Fair point on the 'more rage' front. I was seeing the rage as a mask for guilt but you are right it would also stand up on its own because those were awful beings.

Ret-coning.
 
I've noticed that too, and was always a little confused by it.

The pure and simple fact is that we're fighting wars. Not adventures, not duels, not missions, but actual fucking wars. And in wars, a lot of people suffer, and a good amount of them have nothing to do with any of it.

That's just a fact of life. I remember @TalonofAnathrax raising a stink over all of the Lyseni 'levies' that were going to die in the battle, and to that, I could only sigh. What, do you think the Tyroshi guards all had it coming? All of the families of the magisters we executed deserved being impoverished and orphaned? You think slaves haven't been caught up in reprisals for the hysteria we've stoked, westerlanders haven't starved because of us unleashing the fungus, and thousands of innocents of all creeds and race won't be slain in the wars we've yet to unleash?

We're conquering the fucking world. I completely sympathize with Azel being enraged at people suddenly balking at the cost that they've been happy to ignore so long as it was offscreen and they didn't have to think about it.
That's rich!
I noted the dubious ethical implications of Viserys' Lyseni war far before the last minute (way back when we started the plan, I believe). I too am often annoyed when people try to change @Azel's plans at the last minute.
I understand that this is a war and that people die. I'm not mourning the innocents who lost their livelihoods when we unleashed bioweapons in Lannisport.
But the Lyseni war irked me because it was incredibly unnecessary. Very cool OOC, but very unnecessary. This isn't "kill a few dozen semi-innocent pasties to kill major devil-worshippers in KL" (I don't care about that), or even "kill a few dozen innocents when destroying the Rock for PR". No, this is "start a war and kill thousands just for PR" when we could have used intrigue and mind control/murder to achieve the same result. Heck, we could have pulled a well-prepared Tyrosh 2.0 and just used propaganda and stories of the Legion breaking Unsullied to get good PR!

Anyway. What's done is done, and the PR benefits are utterly amazing anyway.

OOC I found the Lyseni plan rather cruel and dubiously efficient, but amazingly fun. Intrigue and showing off? Hell yeah!

Still, I would at least have added a little magic to break them faster. Fear effects, Draconic fear aura, ect. They'd have been attacked by raiders, they'd have struggled to push through legionnaires, and then Fear (and magical leader-murder) would have finally broken them and channeled them away. Would have been a more humane plan, requiring minimal changes and still letting us have our amazing victory and PR gains.
In any case, nobody seemed to want to alter the plan or even talk about the human cost, so I let it lie and enjoy the show.

I AM NOT SALTY ABOUT THIS. To be clear, I don't want to start a salt debate again.

This isn't a massive issue for me, and I can live with a more ruthless "if it contributes to my rule then it contributes to the greater good" Viserys.

Also, my position of the Viserys mindset debate:
  • Children and vulnerability are hot-button issues for him. Irrational, but hey! People aren't rational!
  • Viserys isn't incredibly personally saddened by killing, although deliberately causing massive slaughter still hits him emotionally when he sees it
  • Viserys is a little tired of slaughtering idiots who won't bend the knee, but will do it
 
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Fair enough. To me you sounded as if you considered it a good thing and since my core issue is people dragging the good out as an argument and dismissing the bad because it was off-screen, that triggered me something fierce.
And we get annoyed with you, because you do the same the other way around, you dismiss the good we do as just pragmatism, and argue for the bad we do, to mean we are the bad guy.

Viserys is a complex character, he do some evil things and some good things, and in the end calling him evil, is at least as wrong as calling him good.

So yeah I think part of our arguing against you and near calling Viserys a Paragon, is that we remember you trying to make him out to be a monster, and that's not a thing we want, and in trying to refute that idea, we go too far in the other direction.
 
To be fair, we have literally called Viserys a parangon. Not an ideal image of GOOD, but an "ideal enlightened dictator" parangon. A larger than life figure with power, principles, brains and charisma as well as an enormous lifespan.
 
Just to be clear: my objections to the Lyseni plan were moral pangs warring with the awesomeness of the chapter (and my desires to make Aedon lose it all before he died). This is just a story and I do love reading a nice beatdown from time to time... But IC this is kinda skeevy...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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