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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
Bit that's the thing. He is a demi-god. He plays with the lives of humans. They are numbers on a report or casualty statistic.

What we see is sometimes veering into a Jesus expy, feeling guilty over suffering he didn't even cause and having deep seated hang ups over causing it himself.

Then he turns around and uses a man as a glorified sock puppet to keep his hands clean from murdering half the ruling class of a city. He orchestrates the death if 15,000 people to make a point. He caused riots in Kings Landing and attacked Lannisport with a bio-weapon that likely killed hundreds and ruined the life of thousands in revenge.

How deeply delusional must this person be to see himself as a paragon while wantonly committing atrocities on the ants around him?
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Viserys does not see himself as a paragon and he certainly does not think feeling guilty over something expunges guilt. I think you may be projecting how some voters feel onto the character. He sees those moments of irrational guilt as a flaw and something to be worked around.
 
Azel said:
The implication is there and I'm employing hyperbole to get my point across as people argue for the virtue of his actions and why the bad stuff totally doesn't count.
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Just to clarify here, I never said it didn't count, just that it does not have the same emotional impact, so obviously Viserys doesn't react in the same way.
 
Azel said:
The implication is there and I'm employing hyperbole to get my point across as people argue for the virtue of his actions and why the bad stuff totally doesn't count.
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Um, ok. Straight up. Last few pages. Where have we (or I) been arguing that the stuff doesn't count. Or that evil in the service of sanity is virtuous?

Because you're getting seriously engaged here, in an argument that doesn't seem to have an opposing side. We're agreeing with you. We just see that what you're asking for is already happening. It's preception that's the conflict point. Not the matter itself. So address that. Not what we're agreeing with you on.
 
DragonParadox said:
Wow... this is a lot to take in, but thank you for laying it all out. You are absolutely right I should have shown more of an emotional reaction to the consequences of the battle for Lys. As for the disgust for the Lys plan as a whole... disgust is probably too too strong a word. I did use tired for a reason and that was to show that he was a aware of the human cost and also of the fact that he could not (to his own mind) make it any smaller. Is there an element of self-delusion to it? I would argue that there isn't at this point but there easily could be. Right now he is at the point of being upset and angry at himself for certain decisions while acknowledging that they are stil the best he could take. If you guys want to know how Viserys could become LE, this is how, though a rationalization and closing his eyes to the consequences of his own actions.
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And I would like to say that this is what is happening right now, at least on the thread level. Wilful ignorance of the bad parts.
DragonParadox said:
Viserys does not see himself as a paragon and he certainly does not think feeling guilty over something expunges guilt. I think you may be projecting how some voters feel onto the character. He sees those moments of irrational guilt as a flaw and something to be worked around.
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Somewhat. It happens when I try to solo the whole thread.
Snowfire said:
If you want to see those reactions we're missing, I'm entirely onboard. I just don't think that the thread would like it.
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To be honest, yes I would. I do want to see the hangings and the piles of bodies. The riots in KL. The shanty towns we caused in Lannisport.

Because those are important moments and finally acknowledging the results of our votes might cause people to either step up or shut up. Because...
065tdsa said:
Just to clarify here, I never said it didn't count, just that it does not have the same emotional impact, so obviously Viserys doesn't react in the same way.
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... Viserys and his huge carry load personally teleporting 15000, 5000 or however many dead slaves it was to Lys should have an impact.

If it doesn't, then make him Lawful Evil since that's what it means to feel absolutely nothing in such a moment.
 
Snowfire said:
Um, ok. Straight up. Last few pages. Where have we (or I) been arguing that the stuff doesn't count. Or that evil in the service of sanity is virtuous?

Because you're getting seriously engaged here, in an argument that doesn't seem to have an opposing side. We're agreeing with you. We just see that what you're asking for is already happening. It's preception that's the conflict point. Not the matter itself. So address that. Not what we're agreeing with you on.
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There were repeated arguments by you that there is less emotional impact for off-screen events.
 
Hmm I was kinda expecting this update to be more in the bent of righteous anger and maybe some satisfaction and sorrow after saving the children. Loved the interaction with Varys, but I was not expecting guilt to show up. I understand why he feels it thanks to @Snowfire s explanations, but I'm kinda on Azel's side here, guilt only showing up on cases like this is a bit irrational. I'm also curious to how his draconic side affects his emotions. I know regular chromatic Red Dragons usually see most other life forms as ants but is that an inherent quality or something they learn as they grow up due to their overwhelming power? Also it was my understanding that Viserys draconic greed manifests in talented people and his hoard is it kingdom, but are there any other ways his draconic nature surfaces? I mean we keep say that these instances of guilt show that he's human, but shouldn't there also be a non human bent to his thoughts? Or are Dragons not inhuman enough to affect the thought process?
 
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Azel said:
... Viserys and his huge carry load personally teleporting 15000, 5000 or however many dead slaves it was to Lys should have an impact.

If it doesn't, then make him Lawful Evil since that's what it means to feel absolutely nothing in such a moment.
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I don't normally do this, but I'm going to go back and write this scene in. It was lost in the rush of organizational and political elements at the end of the Lys fight and it really should not have.
 
Azel said:
To be honest, yes I would. I do want to see the hangings and the piles of bodies. The riots in KL. The shanty towns we caused in Lannisport.

Because those are important moments and finally acknowledging the results of our votes might cause people to either step up or shut up. Because...
... Viserys and his huge carry load personally teleporting 15000, 5000 or however many dead slaves it was to Lys should have an impact.

If it doesn't, then make him Lawful Evil since that's what it means to feel absolutely nothing in such a moment.
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Then we're generally agreed. I'm just concerned that parts of the thread really will not like this. That's no reason not to do it, but facing those consequences will have, well, consequences. I'm prepared to deal with those. You seem so too.

We're not the entire thread.

And now I have a two hour drive that I've already delayed talking here. I'll look back in when I've arrived, but don't expect any more replies until then.
 
Azel said:
Bit that's the thing. He is a demi-god. He plays with the lives of humans. They are numbers on a report or casualty statistic.

What we see is sometimes veering into a Jesus expy, feeling guilty over suffering he didn't even cause and having deep seated hang ups over causing it himself.

Then he turns around and uses a man as a glorified sock puppet to keep his hands clean from murdering half the ruling class of a city. He orchestrates the death if 15,000 people to make a point. He caused riots in Kings Landing and attacked Lannisport with a bio-weapon that likely killed hundreds and ruined the life of thousands in revenge.

How deeply delusional must this person be to see himself as a paragon while wantonly committing atrocities on the ants around him?
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Viserys has never been shown to view himself as a paragon. Where are you getting that from, dude?

Plenty of people do things that make them feel guilty, some good, some bad, and some quite atrocious. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that guilt, mulling over it in your head, reflecting on what lead you to commit such actions, etc., but they don't all collapse into snivelling sacks of self-loathing and angsty goth poetry.

So what if Viserys felt guilty in this instance? It was justifiable, given his personality and the manner in which he experienced the deaths of those children. He didn't read a report about it, or receive word from a subordinate. Instead he got to relive the entire experience in 3D surround sound high definition virtual reality with smellovision thrown into the mix. That's incredibly visceral and not something you can simply ignore without having something genuinely wrong with you. I freely admit I probably have a screw or two loose in this instance, because I doubt it would bother me overly much, but at least I can acknowledge that it should cause a reaction.
 
DragonParadox said:
I don't normally do this, but I'm going to go back and write this scene in. It was lost in the rush of organizational and political elements at the end of the Lys fight and it really should not have.
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Could you look up the corpse numbers by the way?

I thought it were about 1500 corpses for the forge, because that fits the 5000HD best, but now we have a variety of numbers in the room.
 
Yeah, I mean, I agree in essence with Azel about not reflecting these moments enough in the narrative, but I don't agree with the whole "I as a real live human being feel nothing about little children being murdered in the most brutal agonizing way possible".

That kind of disconnect from basic empathy is concerning.

Edit: Not to say necessarily Azel feels that way, though Goldfish just wrote that he did. :V
 
Snowfire said:
Then we're generally agreed. I'm just concerned that parts of the thread really will not like this. That's no reason not to do it, but facing those consequences will have, well, consequences. I'm prepared to deal with those. You seem so too.

We're not the entire thread.

And now I have a two hour drive that I've already delayed talking here. I'll look back in when I've arrived, but don't expect any more replies until then.
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Stop being my ally, I want to yell at someone and most of the actual culprits aren't here. :mad:

To be serious about this, I'm personally seeing a dire need to acknowledge the bad. Because I'm sick of the last minute interferences in my plans when the thread realizes that people die when we kill them.
Snowfire said:
Final final point; that's due to the medium, nothing more. That and basic human psychology. I never said it was a good thing. And it's not one.
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Fair enough. To me you sounded as if you considered it a good thing and since my core issue is people dragging the good out as an argument and dismissing the bad because it was off-screen, that triggered me something fierce.
Goldfish said:
Viserys has never been shown to view himself as a paragon. Where are you getting that from, dude?

Plenty of people do things that make them feel guilty, some good, some bad, and some quite atrocious. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that guilt, mulling over it in your head, reflecting on what lead you to commit such actions, etc., but they don't all collapse into snivelling sacks of self-loathing and angsty goth poetry.

So what if Viserys felt guilty in this instance? It was justifiable, given his personality and the manner in which he experienced the deaths of those children. He didn't read a report about it, or receive word from a subordinate. Instead he got to relive the entire experience in 3D surround sound high definition virtual reality with smellovision thrown into the mix. That's incredibly visceral and not something you can simply ignore without having something genuinely wrong with you. I freely admit I probably have a screw or two loose in this instance, because I doubt it would bother me overly much, but at least I can acknowledge that it should cause a reaction.
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And I never said that it shouldn't elicit a reaction, just that the reaction we got was so very, very Paladin.

The reaction was: "This is horrible and I must stop these atrocities, for I feel guilty to not have prevented them!"

What I personally expected: "This is vile and I will make you regret it."

One of these is a human going to murder stuff in a rage, the other is the internal monologue of an Archon.
 
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Corpse scene added to this update. It ends on a bit of a bleak note since there isn't anyone to just make the guilt magically go away, but it also gives Tyene a chance to shine. I sort of felt her relationship with Viseryshas been overshadowed in recent months.
 
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If we are saying things we find missing in the narrative...

I think we should see joy and wonder for the things we create and do, too. Magic is awesome in the traditional sense of the world.

It might be degenerated drow, but it also might be incredible miracles, vistas undreamt of, the stoking of an ember of hope into a blazing bonfire.

Actual joy from a 'job well done' instead of grim satisfaction, at least.
 
Speaking of the Drow... I am so happy that we found another Sorcerer creature, now all I need is a Barbarian template or a rouge template and I can be satisfied.
 
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