We erased her memory of our one encounter and right now she's reasonably safe fro being associated with the Bey's death.
THat's enough payment.

It's... really not. That is the end result that someone deserves if there is no interaction whatsoever, like an innocent bystander. She gave us this information, agreeing to have her memory altered, in the expectation of some material payment. To just leave the situation as-is is breaking our deal. You might say that is fine, and fair enough, but I strongly contest your position of "Enough Payment" considering that not doing anything is breaking the terms and spirit of our deal.

If people want to drop it, break some random stranger's trust whatever, what's the worth of a king's word, eh? ;) But your payment measuring here is something I think... needs recalibrating. As you are saying we should pay her literally nothing.
 
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It's... really not. That is the end result that someone deserves if there is no interaction whatsoever, like an innocent bystander. She gave us this information, agreeing to have her memory altered, in the expectation of some material payment. To just leave the situation as-is is breaking our deal. You might say that is fine, and fair enough, but I strongly contest your position of "Enough Payment" considering that not doing anything is breaking the terms and spirit of our deal.

If people want to drop it, whatever, but your payment measuring here is something I think... needs recalibrating.
My point is not that she doesn't deserve nice things, but that not interacting further with her is the savest option for her that doesn't include being shelved (literally) for a few decades.

We could reward her if the Shaitan conquer Molten Skyes, as was discussed as an option on our big conference, but that won't be for years to come, or they wouldn't have invested in setting up a puppet as the new Bey.

Frankly, the man is going to say, "can I use this loan to buy magic shit from you?" I mean, where else is he going to spend it?
Base necessities for the Iron Islands, he has to feed some pretty bad lands while sea-trade is heavily interrupted by the Deep Ones.
 
My point is not that she doesn't deserve nice things, but that not interacting further with her is the savest option for her that doesn't include being shelved (literally) for a few decades.

We could reward her if the Shaitan conquer Molten Skyes, as was discussed as an option on our big conference, but that won't be for years to come, or they wouldn't have invested in setting up a puppet as the new Bey.


Base necessities for the Iron Islands, he has to feed some pretty bad lands while sea-trade is heavily interrupted by the Deep Ones.

1) Or, we could, you know, be reasonably smart and not leave her on a shelf for a hyperbolic literal few decades byyyyy... wait for it... spending a bit of our fucking fortune, commissioning more mindblank items from AK. (You know, that metropolis where we don't currently have any items on order from the enchanter woman we got our last set of mindblank/soulfire items from). Then offer her a job of some sort, depending on how much HD/class levels she has. How this is any less than blindly obvious as a practical solution is escaping me. If you are advocating to not pay, or not pay in a timescale we are likely to see in quest, then that's fine. Do not do so with the position that "it's the best we can reasonably do" however. That's flat wrong.

Also, mindblank is the security measure that we used, so if it's good enough for us, it's good enough for her, and if they can get past it, then they (the sultan of brass's people) can get past it and learn it was us, they have no need for her as an information source. So it's either sufficient for this task for her, or insufficient for the mission that we relied on it for.

In fact, leaving her as-is is leaving a loose end. They could do mortal style divinations to find out who recently shared the Bey's secrets that will get around our mindblank by targeting her, even if she does not know. Then all they have to do is interrogate her, see she knows nothing and then cast "alter Memory" to find the bit where we changed her memory in the first place. A god backed divination on the other hand is probably gonna cut through our defences, but eh. what can ya do? *shrugs* gods gonna god.

2) Somehow I doubt that the utility of 2mil in basic supplies is that much greater than 1mil in basics and a literal one million IM worth of magic items. Seriously, use per day spell casting items are a thing that one can comission/buy in markets if they're popular enough.

So yes, some, but holy shit, 2mil on basics is, suboptimal.
Indeed, considering the value of some types of magic items, not spending at least 50k of whatever (sufficiently large) amount we give him, through us buying stuff from OV/AK is moronic.
 
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Then offer her a job of some sort, depending on how much HD/class levels she has.
I'm not sure why you expect her to have many levels?
I mean, she's a Peri-blooded Aasimar, that's a straight PC-race like human or dwarf, no racial HD at all.
Which leaves only levels, and I'm not quite seeing why she would have ended up in her current job if she were a great mage or warrior.
 
I'm not sure why you expect her to have many levels?
I mean, she's a Peri-blooded Aasimar, that's a straight PC-race like human or dwarf, no racial HD at all.
Which leaves only levels, and I'm not quite seeing why she would have ended up in her current job if she were a great mage or warrior.

Added in a rational argument to do so that isn't based on silly things like keeping to agreements or potential asset gaining in my post above, so you will probably have missed it btw:

"In fact, leaving her as-is is leaving a loose end. They could do mortal style divinations to find out who recently shared the Bey's secrets that will get around our mindblank by targeting her, even if she does not know. Then all they have to do is interrogate her, see she knows nothing and then cast "alter Memory" to find the bit where we changed her memory in the first place. A god backed divination on the other hand is probably gonna cut through our defences, but eh. what can ya do? *shrugs* gods gonna god"

I dunno why I expect her to have levels exactly, I suppose surviving the attentions of people who pay for her time and increasing her perceived value to the point where she isn't being hurt/tortured ect as much as she possibly can has given her background stream of XP for winning social combats.

I expect her to be an expert or rogue, but if she was a mage, and we knew that she was, then we'd have sent her to the scholarium by this point :p. And the strong, especially if they don;t have magic, can be overwhelmed by magic. Quadratic wizards and such. But, I doubt she's strong in the combat sense.
 
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Catches up to thread. Wow. 2 million. Absurd. We could buy the islands for that. Or get oh, 50 sets of titan tools and build some islands via greater stone shape. or ~200 greater stone shape items. I would say no to such a deal, as it has interest on it, and ask for a smaller amount with options to increase size if needed, if I were Roderick.

So we maybe not earmark such a sum in totality all at once and spend some that money on caster leshies to be made next month? A few caster leshies going about, doing their healthy life things* could really help out here, more than the whatever the equivalent amount of gold. We don't need corpses to make leshies, it just makes it way cheaper.

(edit: *helping, using their high wis scores, healing, combating mind flayers if needed, potentially helping with agriculture)

@Azel. There's your mages. Druid leshy. If anyone asked if they came from Viserys Tree in Lys.. then the answerer can straight up lie. eiser for an embodied plant spirit thing to lie about their origins than one of our precious magelings. @Goldfish, @egoo, maybe you too should add that we will be able to bring him friendly incarnate nature spirits, if he would like, we can all pop over and meet some/bring some here.

Also, with the offer of 2 million, I would would, in that context, like to bring up the courtesan that we owe payment to when the heat dies down. Stick her in a bottle and order a mindblank item and then let her out and recruit her. then we have a retainer with mindblank.

for context: 50k into lys bank, 300?k to help the factions in lys. 2000k is a silly offer, make it 1000 or 500k as a loan, with options to expand if needed. Frankly, the man is going to say, "can I use this loan to buy magic shit from you?" I mean, where else is he going to spend it?

[X] Goldfish
Firstly, this is a "up to" offer. If he feels he doesn't need that much he can take a lower sum and later stock up, just as you are suggesting.

Secondly, we can't just send him people or leshies for that matter. That would be a violation of the thruce with the squids. Having him "steal" mages from us is the polite fiction that lets us circumvent this. We are still signing off on this, as he wouldn't even be able to make them offers otherwise.

As for the Lys comparisons, it doesn't hold water. In Lys we lined the pockets of a few magisters, but Harlaw needs to keep a kingdom stable that is under assault and bleeding money.
 
Firstly, this is a "up to" offer. If he feels he doesn't need that much he can take a lower sum and later stock up, just as you are suggesting.

Secondly, we can't just send him people or leshies for that matter. That would be a violation of the thruce with the squids. Having him "steal" mages from us is the polite fiction that lets us circumvent this. We are still signing off on this, as he wouldn't even be able to make them offers otherwise.

As for the Lys comparisons, it doesn't hold water. In Lys we lined the pockets of a few magisters, but Harlaw needs to keep a kingdom stable that is under assault and bleeding money.

1) Add in "up to" into your vote then. :) (*Checks vote* wait, how did I miss that? :oops:)

2) Second, strongly disagree. Those leshies are not ours. No one save Viserys belongs to Viserys, at best, many people are sworn to him or have him as liege. If we make some leshies via the tree, then drop them off in the iron islands with Roderick, that will have no impact on our ceasefire as those leshies are acting according to their own whims. Basically we make them, but do not have them as citizens of our realm.
Loophole utilised. Considering the knowledge skill scores and and the spell level the leshies can reach, 3rd, (which includes plant growth!!!!!), having at least a couple is of such high utility that I can't see why you aren't going for such (except for your ceasefire point which I disagree with).

Alternatively, let him diplomance/"steal" the leshies after we make some more when the tree is available again, same as you have for the, vastly underprepared, (level/items) magelings. We sent three with Sann, but he now has one. Pretty sure the other two quietly died.

Again, plant growth to reduce vunerablility to anti-shipping over time, and if we get a bunch of leshies, nature spirits, with casting templates, then they can probably make an impact on the general bilestone problems over time with continuous effort into their part. Many moderate rituals with a bunch of leshies is what I'm envisioning.

3) I have insuffient understanding of the current economic system to contest this point properly, and your rebuttal covers what I do have. Disagreement withdrawn.

Does still feel "crazy money amount" but that is my brain working with old understand of purchasing power/costs, perhaps.

[ ] Azel
 
It wouldn't have been a ludicrous sum before either. We are just so used to cheating with magic and steamrolling threats that we never had to truly suffer losses on remotely the same scale as he does.

Also, his economic situation was horrible from the start. The Illithid actively stirring the pot makes for a mess that he couldn't possibly fix on his own.


As for leshies, we are the sole producer of leshies and only ever handed them out to our allies. Sending them to the Iron Isles pretty much shouts our involvement from the rooftops, both to the squids and to Kings Landing.
 
snip

As for leshies, we are the sole producer of leshies and only ever handed them out to our allies. Sending them to the Iron Isles pretty much shouts our involvement from the rooftops, both to the squids and to Kings Landing.
Snip: insuffint contextual understanding to feel comfortable weighing in.

Squids: not seeing your point. So what if they know we are dropping beings with their own will, desires and no orders from us in various locations where the local lord happenes to diplomance them. That's within the bounds of our ceasefire, is it not? Tell me where that's being broken in this scenario :D

KL: we have pheonixes, like dorne does, we have fey contacts like most other mage groups do. Even if it is assumed that the leshies come from us, this is a case where the higher risk of KL acting is lower than the value of their addition... Basically, plausable deniability. Also, we can advise them to keep hidden if possible, or just let them be vague or deceptive about where they came from. And this is a case of "all against the monsters" if these leshies do not advance Viserys personal agenda directly, then I think that the golden shield and lanternbeares (the helpful masters trying to save the world) will quietly drop it.
Also, leshies can help push for the old gods, more options than just the merling king for the ironborn to switch to! :D

A better argument than kl acting would be the much closer tywin acting to assiste Roderick btw .but I still think it is worth the risk. I mean, if the ithillid haven't offed/worse him after (from what we can see about the paranoia/security here) then he should be ok against most assassins that twyin could send.

Unrelated, I would like to take a look at that seastone chair and fabricate a big covering of lead over it, provided that it isn't just the top of a faint piece of bilestone that goes way down, or drop some wards. Might be better to let the Tritons weigh in on that bit, though, if ceasefire applies in the chair context.

Edit: main point, our magelings... Only a few of them are yet ready to help here, and well, social skills are not something most of them have ranks in. Hiding where they come from over time might be difficult to put it mildly. So that is no defence against our involvement being known: plan spirits can sprout up and do their own thing (and who can say IC that that can't happen, eh?) But mages, a group of then that know each other? Well, that's worth casting a bunch of divinations to find out where they were trained/met/came from.

Basically if mages are ok, leshies are too, is my point. Better, as they are stronger in hd and caster level than most of our mages, and can help sell the OG to the ironborn over time better than humans.
 
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We could let him hire mercenaries through relath as a proxy but...

I dont know. Whatevs really.

Not sure how much this is going to help. The Illithid could just tighten down the screws really.
 
[post deleted]
Shitpost inserted.
Have a friendly reminder that Richard didn't say no to a flying castle. Why are we talking about Bronn's one when Richard still hasn't been rewarded yet?
 
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@Azel

Could you please address the above before I vote.

I actually want a compromise between yours and Goldfish's stance on mages.
Preferably we would prepare Mages specifically to be hired by Rodrik, to ensure required levels of equipment, competence, temperament and loyalty for the situation.
Well, then we would have to equip them on our own dime and basically rent them out as mercenaries.

@everyone, would it be more palatable to you guys if we put together a mercenary force for him to hire? This is skirting pretty close to the terms of the ceasefire, but it might still be doable and gets us more control over tue force composition.

Would cost a good buck to equip people though.
 
Well, then we would have to equip them on our own dime and basically rent them out as mercenaries.

@everyone, would it be more palatable to you guys if we put together a mercenary force for him to hire? This is skirting pretty close to the terms of the ceasefire, but it might still be doable and gets us more control over tue force composition.

Would cost a good buck to equip people though.
Anything but loosing mages like now :/
 
@Azel make it a mercenary force of Leshy and we're good.
We loan him money, he hired mercenaries with it, we build the mercenaries with the money he paid us back.
Perfect American-style Cold War loan bullshit!
 
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[X] Goldfish

Lets not get our low level mages killed.
We already seem to have problems with building an big mage forces up as is, so no need to get them killed by the squids in a way that will do nothing.
 
Well, then we would have to equip them on our own dime and basically rent them out as mercenaries.

@everyone, would it be more palatable to you guys if we put together a mercenary force for him to hire? This is skirting pretty close to the terms of the ceasefire, but it might still be doable and gets us more control over tue force composition.

Would cost a good buck to equip people though.

Strangers Vs precious, underleveled magelings that are being brought into believing in the imperium. I know which I'm happier risking. Also, magelings have to be equipped and mercenaries would (should) have their own gear.

Unless you mean that they are sourced from our own population, then yep, needing equipped definitely.

Wonder if we can count the costs of the equipment to be bought in AK/OV against the loan...
 
Strangers Vs precious, underleveled magelings that are being brought into believing in the imperium. I know which I'm happier risking. Also, magelings have to be equipped and mercenaries would (should) have their own gear.

Unless you mean that they are sourced from our own population, then yep, needing equipped definitely.

Wonder if we can count the costs of the equipment to be bought in AK/OV against the loan...
That was the point of having him hire them and equip them, but thanks to rampant fear-mongering, we now apparently have to do it on our own.

Whatever. It plays in my hands to push for some specialized military build-up next month.
 
@Goldfish, @TalonofAnathrax, @BeepSmile, @Valkhir, @Skjadir, @egoo, @spiritualatheist, @Cerbdog, @canute
I've changed offering him the ability to hire mages in favor of offering him to put together a mercenary force that he can hire. The composition of that can be decided later on.

I would ask you to reconsider and consolidate. The simple fact is, Harlaw needs mages and while this options is skirting a lot closer to the terms of our cease-fire, it's better then having this fall through and seeing the Iron Islands turned into squid-food. Remember that if we don't save the Ironborn, they will come back as some kind of CR 20 Illithid Abomination to destroy SD.

[X] Plan Proxy War
-[X] "I am afraid that war is upon us all, regardless of our wishes. The Illithid will not give us any choice on the matter and neither will others."
-[X] Info-Dumping
--[X] Tell him about what you know about the Illithid, their methods, capabilities and goals. Don't sugar-coat it. He doesn't look too faint to handle the truth and if he feels overwhelmed by it, all the better for your position and good to know that he might be not suited to fight this war.
--[X] Do not mention what you know about their fortresses to not needlessly risk information security on that one. Instead, just imply that you know they have underwater fortresses but that you don't know any locations. It's not as if he had any chance to strike at them anyway.
--[X] Tell him what you know about the Drowned God - Illithid connection, including a recounting of the whole Damphair mess.
--[X] Explain your truce with the Illithid to him and that you are thus somewhat limited in your movements, even though you would love to offer more direct aid. Also stress that you are adhering to it mostly due to needing time to prepare for the war. If it were re-ignited right now, the death toll in your realm would be staggering.
--[X] Explicitly warn him about the effects of Bilestone and that it's being spread among his subjects. Also, that throne? Rots your brain. Doubly so if you wore that Driftwood Crown.
--[X] Ask him to share everything he deems important about the situation so that we can better formulate plans and render aid. That includes the political situation and in that regard, we can act more directly.
-[X] Offer Aid
--[X] Give him 5 PfEs and Healing Belts, for himself and those he deems the most in need of mental protection. Also the option to commission more from you.
--[X] Offer him to hire mercenaries from you. You can put together a force according to his particular needs.
--[X] Offer to arrange a meeting with the Tritons so that he can strike more bargains with them.
--[X] Offer him to talk with Breath Taker in case he is willing to look into divine aid. The Merling King would not give aid without a cost, but said cost can be paid in the blood of the squidheads. (No need to beat around the bush here. He knows what we are all about, doesn't look terribly squeamish and is backed in a corner.)
--[X] Offer him to buy weaponry from you. Potions of Cerulean Sign, alchemical substances, steel weapons, potentially with +1 effects, the abberation detection pearls from Relath (though don't mention the source, just what they are and that you can provide them).
--[X] You are currently looking into making magic more widely available through minor rituals and will share some of those once they are ready.
--[X] Offer to sell him magic items. All of this stuff is preferably not made by your own crafters, but bought in Amun Kelisk and the Opaline Vault in bulk, or in the case of +1 weapons and armor made by Everflame Ironworks. Everything that needs to be crafted by ourselves gets a 25% markup over crafting cost, everything bought is sold to him at the price we bought it for.
--[X] Offer him a war-time loan of up to 2,000,000 IM, at a fixed interest of 0.25% monthly (roughly 3% yearly), to be repaid after the Illithid are permanently repelled.
--[X] Also give him a bag of attuned sand or a Greater Three Eyed Raven to keep in touch.
 
[x] Azel

// So, do we rechristen the Iron Isles to "Cuba" or "Panama"?
...
I'll leave off "Germany" because of economics.
 
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