Most of the recent ~10 hour discussion was about the positives and negatives of exactly this option.
I do not like to be this guy, nonetheless, just read any couple of pages of it to see the reasons of it being controversial.
I know, that is where most of these points came from.

But Corn posted an against summery in his option analysis, and I wanted to post a counter summary.
You (and others) are continuing to post your opinion on the vote choice, so I don't see why you are objecting to mine in particular.
 
Unfortunately this is the status quo or the tariffs outcome.

To do what you're suggesting requires more advanced economic thought, I think the Sketch already have idea though, it's how they make their Kus operations work.

See, I am making the logical jump of "I want that import." And "I don't want that going out of control." And coming to the conclusion we are already using and saying "Let a crown corp do it in a controlled fashion." With a side of "steal all the tech," and "copy the Sketch and gain eccononic influence."

All the pieces are there.
 
I know, that is where most of these points came from.

But Corn posted an against summery in his option analysis, and I wanted to post a counter summary.
You (and others) are continuing to post your opinion on the vote choice, so I don't see why you are objecting to mine in particular.

Then I misunderstood your post.
I thought you were asking why we should vote against it at all, besides it being expensive, since the price was the only "con" you listed in your post.
 
See, I am making the logical jump of "I want that import." And "I don't want that going out of control." And coming to the conclusion we are already using and saying "Let a crown corp do it in a controlled fashion." With a side of "steal all the tech," and "copy the Sketch and gain eccononic influence."

All the pieces are there.
Unfortunately the economic concepts to achieve it cannot be shortcut in that manner though we might get a boost to the tech from trying to reach a solution(maybe if we've found the ancient records of the exact same crisis happening during Romanticism research and how it was dealt with by paying the local miners to get better).
 
See, I am making the logical jump of "I want that import." And "I don't want that going out of control." And coming to the conclusion we are already using and saying "Let a crown corp do it in a controlled fashion." With a side of "steal all the tech," and "copy the Sketch and gain eccononic influence."

All the pieces are there.

...and now I have dark recollections of the tax crisis.
This said, your idea is good, I am just not sure we could actually pull it off.
 
Then I got to lean towards not rocking the boat befkre we land the sucker and pull out if a briken economy. We can losen restrictions, and we can revisit this again in a turn or two, but not in this moment. No trading full IC for temp bonuses when we bleed IC.
 
The update specifically says our larger corporations, like the cannon manufacturers(who had converted to corporations long ago), will profit.
Our smaller corporations, like the iron foundries(who had been forcibly converted more recently), will collapse.

One major reason for our iron production being behind on quality is that we just broke the quality control a few years ago when we dismantled the guilds by force. Not due to ingrained bad practices, but due to being too busy trying to stay afloat to innovate.



It means the Sketch can shut down our transportation backbone when its important. They can simply pull out and we're left with engines and no engineers to run them with. Which means that any action which may risk a Sketch pullout would be strongly opposed by our factions.

Which is exactly what we're doing to Black Sheep with the 1 IC option. Shame their banks run on Gulmaryn Clerks.
The idea that our larger corporations are simply going to stop all production of steel and that smaller foundries were the only innovators is absurd. While native production may take a hit, it is not going to be some economy wrecking concession of our ability to produce natively. We can take the short term hit and continue developing the technology to one day surpass Kielmyr and begin mass producing natively again. We are State Industrialists. We are entirely capable of preserving native production and capabilities.

As for the Sketch, yes, this will make it politically expensive in the event we come into direct conflict with one another. In the event that happens, it is still entirely worth it for us because trains are absolutely vital to our goals. As with steel, we simply need to continue development of the necessary technologies until we no longer need their expertise.
 
...and now I have dark recollections of the tax crisis.
This said, your idea is good, I am just not sure we could actually pull it off.

That is why we don't try to change the whole market at once. Those who want to import ore and export steel with the current system CAN. We just have a secondary channel for groups willing to trade investment for growth.
 
Then I misunderstood your post.
I thought you were asking why we should vote against it at all, besides it being expensive, since the price was the only "con" you listed in your post.
why we should / why we should not were both headings. It is not a pro / con list (which would be much bigger), but the arguments for/against I agree with.
 
...this is going to end in a catastrophe isn't it?
Welp, I already tried, I am not doing this again, good luck people! I will be back once everything is on fire and people (hopefully) start reflecting.
See you soon.
 
The idea that our larger corporations are simply going to stop all production of steel and that smaller foundries were the only innovators is absurd. While native production may take a hit, it is not going to be some economy wrecking concession of our ability to produce natively. We can take the short term hit and continue developing the technology to one day surpass Kielmyr and begin mass producing natively again. We are State Industrialists. We are entirely capable of preserving native production and capabilities.

As for the Sketch, yes, this will make it politically expensive in the event we come into direct conflict with one another. In the event that happens, it is still entirely worth it for us because trains are absolutely vital to our goals. As with steel, we simply need to continue development of the necessary technologies until we no longer need their expertise.

Mmmmmm....thing is, the move towards being resource colony of a state that produces finished goods within is b-basically much weaker form of colonization?

The whole purpose of colonialism is "extract cheap raw resources, make finished goods, sell finished goods, profit", combined with "do not let natives form their own competition via dumping and other tactics".

And 19th century is, to a degree, an age of economic colonialism under flag of "free trade" like this, although Great Britain tended to do it more, usually with cannons of HM Ships leveled at the ports as an incentive to get some freedom and capitalism in there.


We do not have anti-dumping. We do not have WTO or anything, no rules or regulations.

Like....
The problem, of course, was that this sort of deal would strangle a lot of the small companies that had been produced by the exploding of the Blacksmith's Guild. The bigger players that had their hands in various other metalworking pies like the cannon makers and gunsmiths and the like would be ecstatic, but the smaller groups would be incensed and would many would likely go out of business. Overall it would likely be a net positive, especially with a need for the highest quality iron and steel for use in the manufacture of furnaces and boilers for steam engines to power other industries, but there would definitely be losers in the affair.


Look. The bigger players that would profit are explicitly those who diversified away from steelmaking.
 
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1829 EY Q&A
Bah, I woke up late and then got busy, so the moratorium lasted longer than expected. Anyway, will answer these questions and then unlock.

what nations are the Ochruhr targeting?

Tortun Duchies (is why your diplo report is still incoming, since what you will be told will be majorly affected by this vote), Behryvar, and Styrmyr primarily, with Hespranxer and Etal city states secondarily. There will probably be some wider eruption from sympathetic revolutions.

is this option about missives to our lands or missives to lands of other countries too?

Other countries. The middle option is you basically going "Oh shit, we've uncovered a mass coordination scheme, everyone get ready right away!", which has the potential to massively foul whatever plan is going on by warning the victims early, throwing the plot off.

if we buy railroads fro Sketch and do Medium Investment into Sheep, can we do some sort of thing described above? New Silk Road of sorts.

Possibly.

Trust/Espionage 11+ would be a huge boon to our ability to timely react to changing situations.

While part of this was luck, a big part of this was narrative driven by your high Trust and Espionage. You had the capacities in place to take advantage of a lucky break, and the narrative you have been crafting means that the bitter, dispirited coordinator who has no reason to support the actual masterminds has the tiniest sliver of reason to turn the information over to you.

wait, what are our result for Tortun Duchies outreach? The '48 Revolutions info?

See above, but you will be getting information and depending on what happens you will have pre-existing coordination networks in place to deal with shit hitting the fan.

I am 99% sure that Nokly caught himself in his own head, trying to find a proper rhyme for that.

Something like that.

What rhymes with "you" except "you"? I thought I knew English.....

Ewe :p

I don't suppose we could try and secretly bolster the Ochruhr rebels so the conspirators get more than they bargained for? Or would that require more lead time (and/or flexible attitudes about working with republicans) than we have?

No, no time for that, and it would more likely blow up in your face anyway.

what kind of small businesses would the steel reworking kill off?

Lots of little local shops around the mines and the like who will do both refining and smithing for local consumption, plus the spots in the cities that had ironworks that didn't get eaten up by the larger Crown Corps but sold off as part of the restructuring. Those groups have old equipment but can still keep up with internal domestic demand as it currently stands.

If we take the 1 PW Sketch option, will it increase our IC cap as if we had researched the tech ourselves?

Railroads do not directly increase IC cap, you need to build the rails first.
 
[X] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[X] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[X] [Sheep] 2 PW - Aid shall be theirs (Sending Technical Advisors, -1 IC, Medium Investment in Black Sheep, Black Sheep very pleased)
[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[X] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)
 
I doubt the Kielmyr will be selling us steel. The current transport capacity would favor finished goods. Which businesses will be out of business also points towards that.

[X] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[X] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[X] [Sheep] 2 PW - Aid shall be theirs (Sending Technical Advisors, -1 IC, Medium Investment in Black Sheep, Black Sheep very pleased)
[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[X] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)
 
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[X] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[X] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[X] [Sheep] 2 PW - Aid shall be theirs (Sending Technical Advisors, -1 IC, Medium Investment in Black Sheep, Black Sheep very pleased)
[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[X] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)
 
[X] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[X] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[X] [Sheep] 2 PW - Aid shall be theirs (Sending Technical Advisors, -1 IC, Medium Investment in Black Sheep, Black Sheep very pleased)
[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[X] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)
 

[X] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[X] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[X] [Sheep] 2 PW - Aid shall be theirs (Sending Technical Advisors, -1 IC, Medium Investment in Black Sheep, Black Sheep very pleased)
[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[X] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)
 
[X] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[X] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[X] [Sheep] 2 PW - Aid shall be theirs (Sending Technical Advisors, -1 IC, Medium Investment in Black Sheep, Black Sheep very pleased)
[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[X] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)

So, @Academia Nut, what was that nasty surprise?
 
[X] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[X] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[X] [Sheep] 2 PW - Aid shall be theirs (Sending Technical Advisors, -1 IC, Medium Investment in Black Sheep, Black Sheep very pleased)
[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[X] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)
 
Other countries. The middle option is you basically going "Oh shit, we've uncovered a mass coordination scheme, everyone get ready right away!", which has the potential to massively foul whatever plan is going on by warning the victims early, throwing the plot off.

That's workable too.


Medium Investment in Sheep + buying rails = New Silk Road?
Okay, this is awesome.

While part of this was luck, a big part of this was narrative driven by your high Trust and Espionage. You had the capacities in place to take advantage of a lucky break, and the narrative you have been crafting means that the bitter, dispirited coordinator who has no reason to support the actual masterminds has the tiniest sliver of reason to turn the information over to you.

So, Monument + high Trust/Espionage to see opportunities and take them.
Nice.

Lots of little local shops around the mines and the like who will do both refining and smithing for local consumption, plus the spots in the cities that had ironworks that didn't get eaten up by the larger Crown Corps but sold off as part of the restructuring. Those groups have old equipment but can still keep up with internal domestic demand as it currently stands.

Not nearly as bad as expected - just local shops and the like. Hrm.
Tempting, given narrative impact of abundant cheap steel and faster opening of Free Trade tech.
Meh, I will just vote for both options on that one.

[X] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[X] [Kielmyr] 1 PW - Rework trade agreements to take advantage of what you are both best at (-1 IC, -1 Active Development, +2 Temp IC, +1 Temp SoL, Kielmyr pleased, Liberals Pleased, Urbanites Displeased)
[X] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[X] [Sheep] 2 PW - Aid shall be theirs (Sending Technical Advisors, -1 IC, Medium Investment in Black Sheep, Black Sheep very pleased)
[X] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[X] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)
 
[x] [Kielmyr] 0 PW - A slight reworking of tariffs may be in order (-1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC, Kielmyr mildly accepting)
[x] [Trains] 0 PW - Buy what is available (-1 Temp SoL, Prototype Railroad [Open] and boosted)
[x] [Sheep] 0 PW - See no reason to stand in the way of private investment (Gain Low Investment in Black Sheep status, Black Sheep pleased)
[x] [Officers] +1 PW - Yes (Black Sheep pleased)
[x] [Conspiracy] 1 PW - Send out a warning while publicly decrying the Ochruhr for their involvement (-1 Trust, potential war with Ochruhr, ???)
 
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