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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Academia Nut said:
it also meant that they were pushing the issue towards a constitutional crisis
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What exactly is the legal status of the guilds as described in the constitution? When we voted to not expand guilds or guild rights in any way I kind of imagined them not really being mentioned all that much on the papers proper, essentially leaving it to the status quo laws and the will of the King. After all there is bound to be many laws that precede the constitution and are still valid, the only difference being that the King can change them without having to lose face by unilaterally touching the constitution.
On that note, what does a change in the constitution require by law? Is it still just the King calling one in whenever he feels like? To the two parliaments have any actually binding say in how it is changed? Can they block anything without it requiring technically a revolution against the Crown?

Lastly, what's the franchise in the Tortun Republic like? If I am reading it correctly then they currently are the most democratic nation on not!Earth. Even if they will soon be no more it is interesting what example and legacy they'll leave, democracy wise.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Devolve further political power to the Upper and Lower houses of parliament in exchange for snapping the neck of the guild issue.
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A few things:
-Even removing the Guilds legal protections alone costs 6 PW. We have 4
-As per the previous convention, devolving political power to the upper and lower houses is not going to do it, it costs PW to grant them power remember? Our society doesn't have the social concepts to make such a thing appealing to the Estates yet.

Ergo, your compromises would be giving the Guilds more constitutional protection in order to take others away.
Please don't slam facefirst into a constitution convention with only half the PW needed to make even a halfway acceptable outcome when you can create a Crown Corporation, which would make it CHEAPER, because we'd have removed the arms manufacturers and the glassmakers from the guilds, which both adds a new estate that would reduce the PW cost of guild breaking AND reduce the power of the Guilds.

At least wait a damned half turn so we have 8 PW to throw at the problem and can thus tank the Guilds as much as is needed.
Our ability to call a convention is, you may recall, locked after conducting one. So we wait, get 8PW worth of reform done in the next 5 year span rather than slow it down by rushing 4 PW of reform in the next 5 year span.
 
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HanEmpire said:
What do we know about his opinion of us? Can we invite him to live out his days in our lands?
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Manget said:
Could we be the ones to get Faron maybe as a lecturer at our Royal Military Academy under some kind of weird house arrest/exile.
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He doesn't hate you, but he also doesn't like you either. He won't live in the nation of any of the participants unless it is like an isolated Sketch island or something.

VoidZero said:
if we took the 0 pw peace option, are we giving KH their land back?
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Kielmyr would get their lands back. The big thing is the possibility that everyone will peace out except the Ochruhr, in which case the Tortun do not dissolve and have a chance to unify further.

HanEmpire said:
is there any way to salvage the situation for the Ochruhr? The von Habsburgs were so powerful because it formed dynastic mergers left and right. Maybe we could do the same here? Does any Tortun statelet or Duke-to-be have a female heir that the Ochruhr Emperor or Kronprinz can marry to form a personal union?
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The Republican Revolutions wiped out many of those connections and the statelets either value their independence too much or already signed up with one of the Tortun-contenders.

DakkaMania said:
If we do have a Constitutional Convention, do we have enough alcohol in reserve and organized a rotation system for the civil service in case things go out of hand again?
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Changes have been made to attempt to prevent the issues of last time.
 
@Academia Nut Actually, one more question: What does "researching early nationalism" actually look like? And what does the crown hearing about and sanctioning such research look like? I may be wrong here but my impression was that in the real world nationalism did not come from government approved academia. More like it was an idea of the oppressed that let them unite and fight "foreign" rulers and influences. Not something Gylruv-Ymar would have a natural burning need for.

Or is it more that nationalism is a thing that very much exists, in the world and within our borders both, with the research being about ideas how to channel and make use of such trends for the good of Crown and Empire?

veekie said:
Our society doesn't have the social concepts to make such a thing appealing to the Estates yet.
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The people who we want to give more power to don't have the social concepts to be happy about having more power? That would be a first in the history of humanity.
With less snark, the lightning rounds literally started when the then nobility acquired legislative power over their king. Has even late imperial history been completely forgotten?
 
Raichu1972 said:
Yep, we're going to be stuck with Great Power Tortun for essentially forever now, fucking Faron.

And we also can't take his deal while also properly breaking the Guilds, so that's going to be another mess.
Guess we better be prepared for a Great Power rival on our border in about 5 turns.
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-but who could have seen either of those things coming?
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
Academia Nut said:
Kielmyr would get their lands back. The big thing is the possibility that everyone will peace out except the Ochruhr, in which case the Tortun do not dissolve and have a chance to unify further.
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Well that looks like it would be the option for a lasting peace bewteen the Tortuns and us. I'm pretty sure that partitioning them into a confoderation will make us even more disliked by them and when they reunited they'll be looking for revenge.
 
Arbit said:
Well that looks like it would be the option for a lasting peace bewteen the Tortuns and us. I'm pretty sure that partitioning them into a confoderation will make us even more disliked by them and when they reunited they'll be looking for revenge.
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Our ally, the Kielmyr, will get their ethnically Tortun lands back. If we don't split up the Tortun we will be called to arms in ~10 years. Splitting up the Tortun gives us time.
Time to break the guilds. Time to industrialize. Time to let us use our high diplomacy on the Tortun and maybe resolve this issue between them and the Kielmyr.
 
Academia Nut said:
Definitely the first can turn some guilds into crown corporations of their own accord, the second maybe depending on what you do.



If you pick the second you are throwing your weight behind the negotiations, and if the Ochruhr want to keep going it will be alone and potentially with other Great Powers backing up the Tortun in order to get them to dissolve in short order rather than them potentially peacing out with everyone but the Ochruhr and then not dissolving because that part of the agreement was never fulfilled by the Coalition.

It depends on where you exile him and the circumstances surrounding it. If you treat him with good faith and don't abuse the Tortun People he may be content to stay wherever you stick him.
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[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
 
Spacegnom said:
Our ally, the Kielmyr, will get their ethnically Tortun lands back. If we don't split up the Tortun we will be called to arms in ~10 years. Splitting up the Tortun gives us time.
Time to break the guilds. Time to industrialize. Time to let us use our high diplomacy on the Tortun and maybe resolve this issue between them and the Kielmyr.
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As long as he doesn't go after our lands I'm fine letting Hohozyn get those lands. Having a neutral to friendly Tortun on our border also gives us time and if our relations don't have to get over that whole partition issue first it's going to be more effective. I'm pretty sure we can talk them out of going for the Kielmyr lands.
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow thedissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow thedissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[x] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[x] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
Rafin said:
Actually, one more question: What does "researching early nationalism" actually look like? And what does the crown hearing about and sanctioning such research look like? I may be wrong here but my impression was that in the real world nationalism did not come from government approved academia. More like it was an idea of the oppressed that let them unite and fight "foreign" rulers and influences. Not something Gylruv-Ymar would have a natural burning need for.

Or is it more that nationalism is a thing that very much exists, in the world and within our borders both, with the research being about ideas how to channel and make use of such trends for the good of Crown and Empire?
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You have some concept of nationalism along the lines of IRL 17th and 18th century French centralization efforts.

Also, I have decided that some of my generic naming schemes are becoming a problem. Some things will still work with the current system, but going forward Early Modern Logic should be read as Early 19th Century Logic, the math one is Early 19th Century Math, and so on and so forth to give a better idea what you are actually looking at.

Rafin said:
What exactly were the issues that led to that extreme alcohol consumption back then?
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Stress drinking over the comet and the convention was the partying at the convention mostly. In the wider sense there were two bits of miscommunication: the first was that no one was exactly sure what the law was going into the constitutional convention and the bureaucracy became paralyzed, and Poetyr miscommunicated his intentions and no one thought to countermand him. Also, they weren't literally smashed for months, it was only about a solid week of partying at the end of several months of solid buzz, with the final two days being a particularly heavy affair as alcohol stocks ran low but the Qeshyks had brought out their stash of smokables to compensate.

Also, nitrous. There was a lot of huffing laughing gas while drunk and otherwise high.

No, they still haven't figured out that you can use nitrous oxide for anaesthesia, despite having the recipe for decades.
 
For me, the most important matter is that going for the Constitution next turn means that it leaves all our Industrial Capacity open for moar roads Expand Transport Infrastructure. =3
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Modern Nationalism
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
I have no love for the guilds, but a constitutional convention is something you want to go into with a lot of political will saved up.
 
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Lailoken said:
I have no love for the guilds, but a constitutionally convention is something you want to go into with a lot of political will saved up.
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And this is why I decided to change my vote again, excuse me for that:

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 16, 2018 at 12:14 PM, finished with 195 posts and 78 votes.
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