Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

8bitBob · Mar 2, 2018

notgreat said:
What's the benefit of gaining temp IC?

It doesn't seem like we have any real use for it unless we can get our innovation above 10 which is... not really possible to do next turn.

Temp IC directly translates to more land claiming or perm IC via Develop Industry.

agumentic · Mar 2, 2018

@Academia Nut, will we lose current temp Cons at the end of the turn? Or will we have Cons 3(5) if we pick an option that gives temp Cons right now?

Virian · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)

[X] [Crisis] 2 PW - Declare war on the Tortun Republic (+1 Prestige, declare war on Tortun Republic, Ochruhr aligned segments of Tortun likely to declare war on you or otherwise demand reparations for insult)

[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 PW + promises

Citino · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 0 PW - Remain neutral and watch (-1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp IC

notgreat · Mar 2, 2018

8bitBob said:
Temp IC directly translates to more land claiming or perm IC via Develop Industry.

Land claiming- do you have any evidence for this?

Develop Industry is IC neutral- it gives +1 permanent, but you can't use that immediately because of the -1 temp. PW is the actual limitation on our ability to develop right now, and then our development cap limiting our permanent IC once we get a few more turns down the line. Our temp IC is a relevant stat to track, but it isn't actually going to be the limiting factor very often. (until we get high innovation that is)

Umi-san · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 PW + promises

Random Member · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Crisis] 3 PW - Declare war for the Tortun Republic (declare war on Ochruhr, -2 Trust, +1 Consciousness, anti-Republican forces break ties with you, Kielmyr likely declare war on you)

Vive la republique!

zamin · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 0 PW - Remain neutral and watch (-1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp IC

8bitBob · Mar 2, 2018

notgreat said:
Land claiming- do you have any evidence for this?

Develop Industry is IC neutral- it gives +1 permanent, but you can't use that immediately because of the -1 temp. PW is the actual limitation on our ability to develop right now, and then our development cap limiting our permanent IC once we get a few more turns down the line. Our temp IC is a relevant stat to track, but it isn't actually going to be the limiting factor very often. (until we get high innovation that is)

Hmm?

Develop Industry - 1PW: Increases IC and Active Development by 1, -1 Temp IC
Claim Kyberi Territory - 1 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status

Both directly cost Temp IC. We have more PW than IC per turn due to Guilds restricting our IC cap. If people want to accelerate Industrialization or claim or land, which I assume they do because they're taking Temp IC, then Temp IC is most certainly the limiting stat.

Note, this is not actually what I'm voting for. Just explaining the benefit.

ALanos · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp IC

godofsmallthings · Mar 2, 2018

I guess Nohon won't have many reasons to push West since they already control all the coast.

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp IC

notgreat · Mar 2, 2018

8bitBob said:
Develop Industry - 1PW: Increases IC and Active Development by 1, -1 Temp IC
Claim Kyberi Territory - 1 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status

Like I said, Develop Industry is IC neutral.

Claim Kyberi Territory does cost actual IC, but unless I misunderstood the mechanics we've got 2 IC next turn and we've got plenty of other things to spend our PW on if we want to actually be able to do things like increase our innovation to the point where we can get the infinite stats drive going.

Citino · Mar 2, 2018

On a lighter (?) note, Not!US is racing west. I think they're eating Ohio right now, should hit the Mississippi in another two or so turns at the current rate.

Wiadi · Mar 2, 2018

Academia Nut said:
Due to international crisis, gain +2 PW towards addressing the issue

@Academia Nut in future updates, could you state our total current PW here (as well as on the front page)? It's not vital but would be convenient.

Also, since this vote doesn't appear to be by plan, how will PW costs be resolved? For example, if "send in negotiators," "declare war for the Republic," and "raise taxes" all won their sections, which would we take (since that would cost 5 of our 3 PW)?

HanEmpire · Mar 2, 2018

Citino said:
On a lighter (?) note, Not!US is racing west. I think they're eating Ohio right now, should hit the Mississippi in another two or so turns at the current rate.

Maybe we can ally UPM and attack Nohon together.

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp IC
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp SoL

Pyro Hawk · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp IC

8bitBob · Mar 2, 2018

notgreat said:
Like I said, Develop Industry is IC neutral.

Claim Kyberi Territory does cost actual IC, but unless I misunderstood the mechanics we've got 2 IC next turn and we've got plenty of other things to spend our PW on if we want to actually be able to do things like increase our innovation to the point where we can get the infinite stats drive going.

You cannot spend Perm IC to take Develop Industry or Claim Kyberi, so it does not matter that DI grants Perm IC. Having more Temp IC in a turn means you can take more of those actions. I understand that you want to spend PW on other things, but if one's goal is to claim more land or speed up Industrialization, then PW is not your limiting stat. Temp IC is.

notgreat · Mar 2, 2018

8bitBob said:
You cannot spend Perm IC to take Develop Industry or Claim Kyberi, so it does not matter that DI grants Perm IC.

Huh?

Develop Industry gives +1 Perm IC and -1 Temp IC. That means that after that action, your IC is at the exact same value it was beforehand. Then the turn after, you're at +1 IC.

If your only goal is to claim all of Kyberi next turn then temp IC is a limiting factor. If you have any other plans, more PW is required. PW is basically actions. It's ridiculously valuable.

8bitBob · Mar 2, 2018

notgreat said:
Huh?

Develop Industry gives +1 Perm IC and -1 Temp IC. That means that after that action, your IC is at the exact same value it was beforehand. Then the turn after, you're at +1 IC.

If your only goal is to claim all of Kyberi next turn then temp IC is a limiting factor. If you have any other plans, more PW is required. PW is basically actions. It's ridiculously valuable.

I am fairly sure that increasing your Perm IC does not increase your Temp IC. This would be pretty screwy behavior. May as well check though:

@Academia Nut Is Develop Industry neutral in the way notgreat believes?

E: Damn, seems to have gone to bed for the night.

Quick reminder that I agree that PW is more valuable in general, as that is what I am voting for. Not what I'm discussing here though.

Anyway, the reason it would be screwy is because it makes no sense to format it that way, or it promotes really odd behavior.

Situation 1: If you actually raise your Perm IC, then it is neutral.
In this situation, you are incentivized to never max IC. The best way to Industrialize is to spend all Perm IC every turn and then raise it so you gain free Temp IC. Going from 1 to 3 IC would cost nothing other than PW. Maintaining maxed Perm IC becomes actively detrimental because you don't gain free Temp IC due to raising your Perm IC.

Situation 2: It is neutral, full stop. Even if you're capped but spend Perm IC to remain neutral.
In this situation, why would you even list it as having a Temp cost? It's completely meaningless.

Shard · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Paying] No need for change

Camry · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp IC
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp SoL

keenscythe · Mar 2, 2018

[X] [Kyberi] 1 PW - Send in proper negotiators and scholars to sort it all out (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, situation resolved, ???)
[X] [Crisis] 1 PW - Send aid to the Kielmyr (-1 temp SoL, +1 Temp Trust)
[X] [Paying] 0 PW - Bank and Business Fun
-[X] [Paying] +1 Temp IC

Well Either we break away Nohon's eastern colonies or we go to war with them and take those ports.

That or we fuse again and form a triple-monarchy with a king/queen that wears three crowns. (Hey Hubris is a Coward's word after all!)

Though I'm not sure if the Not!Japan has locked into their "Filthy Gaijin go home!" mentality yet.

SeptimusMagisto · Mar 2, 2018

keenscythe said:
Well Either we break away Nohon's eastern colonies or we go to war with them and take those ports.

Here's an alternative: maybe let's not? OTL Russia got into way too much trouble because it just had to have a port for every possible circumstance.

Theunderbolt · Mar 2, 2018

HanEmpire said:
Goddammit the Nohon are expanding into Kyberia too. That's our land you bastards.

Looks like we're going to be on the wrong side of the logistics train. =/

keenscythe · Mar 2, 2018

SeptimusMagisto said:
Here's an alternative: maybe let's not? OTL Russia got into way too much trouble because it just had to have a port for every possible circumstance.

I'm sorry you seem to be operating on the assumption that all clay is not in fact Ymarn-Gylruv Clay.

I want the Ymarn-Gylruv to enjoy the two greatest moats in the world like my IRL Nation. It has done wonders for our national security.

Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

Sage of Reason and incomplete information

Procrastinating.

Gardener of Human Happiness

The Watcher in the Dark

Uncompromising Radical Leftist

Delicious

One and Many

No longer NEET

"Prepare for trouble..."

No longer NEET