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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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@Crake, @Duesal, the long term goal is to eradicate pretty much any form of culture that is outside of the acceptable default culture of the Empire. I merely want to present that to her in a fashion that sounds a bit less like re-education camps. Besides, I'm echoing our speech to the Ironborn a year ago here and she definitely had a few talks with Half-Hand and his buddies by now.

She is well aware that we have a problem with the old ways, even before we openly talk about casting down her god. This is no different then reassuring Rhaella. Small liberties with the truth to not overwhelm those unable to handle the true scope of our ambitions.
 
Azel said:
@Crake, @Duesal, the long term goal is to eradicate pretty much any form of culture that is outside of the acceptable default culture of the Empire. I merely want to present that to her in a fashion that sounds a bit less like re-education camps. Besides, I'm echoing our speech to the Ironborn a year ago here and she definitely had a few talks with Half-Hand and his buddies by now.

She is well aware that we have a problem with the old ways, even before we openly talk about casting down her god. This is no different then reassuring Rhaella. Small liberties with the truth to not overwhelm those unable to handle the true scope of our ambitions.
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Alright, I just needed to be reassured that our schemes of crushing Ironborn culture were still in place. Consider my concerns on the subject withdrawn in full.
 
@Azel, I also agree with @Crake. If we are planning to break their culture, there is no point in telling them we won't do exactly that. It sets a bad precedent.

Neither of them are deep thinkers. Don't mention it and they probably won't even consider it.
 
Still want some of our own Varangians, though I accept that the Ironborn don't make good stand-up fighters, unlike Vikings, who could be set against any equivalent force and expect to unsettle and break the morale of the opposition because of how strong, tall, and bloodthirsty they were.

Ironborn, on the other hand, were known to "strike fast and move before being engaged out in the open". Though I guess that's similar to the M.O of vikings. Just without the same battle prowess.

I guess I'll settle for some "reeducated" First Men.
 
Goldfish said:
@Azel, I also agree with @Crake. If we are planning to break their culture, there is no point in telling them we won't do exactly that. It sets a bad precedent.

Neither of them are deep thinkers. Don't mention it and they probably won't even consider it.
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Which is why I mention them "reaching greater heights".

They probably worry about us breaking their people already, so it can't hurt to reassure them that we don't want to rear everything down, but just to add some "improvements".

We are telling them that we want to kill their god. Really. We need to reassure them after that.
 
Azel said:
Which is why I mention them "reaching greater heights".

They probably worry about us breaking their people already, so it can't hurt to reassure them that we don't want to rear everything down, but just to add some "improvements".

We are telling them that we want to kill their god. Really. We need to reassure them after that.
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Semantics. We are clearly planning to break their culture, but you are just as clearly telling them that we have no such plans.

Why not just change that line to say we instead aim to preserve their people rather than let them be the pawns of monsters?
 
Theon seems like he would be reassured by being told Viserys intends to kill the Drowned God. Asha might be more conflicted on a meta-level, as far as Viserys knows.

But still, again, the only thing that Asha believes, has ever believed, is that the only thing of value the Ironborn have left to their name is their culture, their independence and ability to take what they want without regard to others.

Telling her "we won't change this" when it is such a blatant lie that even she'd be able to smell through it...

It might be better to rephrase it that "we can give her people similar, or greater glories, but they won't, ultimately, be the same. For one thing, there are better targets than undefended coastal settlements."

Which is basically just hair away from saying, "No more fucking reaving."
Adhoc vote count started by Crake on Jan 27, 2018 at 9:32 PM, finished with 145543 posts and 16 votes.
  • [X] Speak with Asha and Theon
    -[X] About mindflayers, that you suspect the Drowned God is a front for whatever leads them, the Thousand Isles and the parallels between it and the Iron Isles.
    -[X] Bring out the stuffed Ulitharid if Asha is disbelieving.
    -[X] That you wish to break the claim of the Drowned God on the Iron Isles and that you wish to see the Ironborn rise above the reputation of traitors and worthless brigands they have in Westeros. The same sorcery that has wrought the recent changes on the Stepstones can be used there.
    -[X] You do not wish to break their culture, but to see it rise to greater heights.
    -[X] Give Asha the axe you've had customized for her as a sign of your support for her ascension to the throne of Pyke.
    -[X] Offer Theon a bow made from Dragonbone, though you are operating on a rather tight schedule for at least the next two months, so it might be a bit until you can enchant it for him.
    [X] Ask Moonsong more questions
    -[X] What can she tell us about the I'qor, was it a temporary alliance or did she manage to strike a long term deal? are they interested in trade, we can help them dispose of more shiny things in exchange for something actually useful.
    -[X] What about the area in general? enemy forts, valuable plants or animals, anything of interest really.
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Goldfish said:
Semantics. We are clearly planning to break their culture, but you are just as clearly telling them that we have no such plans.

Why not just change that line to say we instead aim to preserve their people rather than let them be the pawns of monsters?
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Crake said:
Theon seems like he would be reassured by being told Viserys intends to kill the Drowned God. Asha might be more conflicted on a meta-level, as far as Viserys knows.

But still, again, the only thing that Asha believes, has ever believed, is that the only thing of value the Ironborn have left to their name is their culture, their independence and ability to take what they want without regard to others.

Telling her "we won't change this" when it is such a blatant lie that even she'd be able to smell through it...

It might be better to rephrase it that "we can give her people similar, or greater glories, but they won't, ultimately, be the same. For one thing, there are better targets than undefended coastal settlements."

Which is basically just hair away from saying, "No more fucking reaving."
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@Azel, this is a pretty good point. Her major concern is that we plan to make the Ironborn a sacrificial lamb for the Deep Ones. I think we can hammer down on saving her people and not have to touch "preserving the Old Ways" and avoid making any form of implicit promises to her. It's just cleaner this way.
 
I also agree that hitting the "saving the ironborn" angle and not mentioning the culture thing is the best route. Our method of saving the ironborn might involve snapping part of their culture over our knee, but we'd still be keeping the promise.
 
Diomedon said:
I also agree that hitting the "saving the ironborn" angle and not mentioning the culture thing is the best route. Our method of saving the ironborn might involve snapping part of their culture over our knee, but we'd still be keeping the promise.
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Basically this.

@Azel, I know being devious is very tempting, but it's not the most efficient route this time.

This:
-[] You do not wish to break their culture, but to see it rise to greater heights.
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Only serves to drag the vote down and potentially lock us into a promise that none of us have any intention of keeping.

The vote is perfectly serviceable without it.

You want to reassure her? Reassure her by telling her the Ironborn will survive and not be eaten. That's all she needs.
 
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Duesal said:
@Azel, this is a pretty good point. Her major concern is that we plan to make the Ironborn a sacrificial lamb for the Deep Ones. I think we can hammer down on saving her people and not have to touch "preserving the Old Ways" and avoid making any form of implicit promises to her. It's just cleaner this way.
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To be honest I really don't want to reassure her that the old ways will have even the sniff of a chance to survive.
 
@Artemis1992, @egoo, @Duesal, @tenchifew, @iggyfan, @mrsean22, @Takesis, @TalonofAnathrax, @Crake, @Helo89, @LonelyWolf999, @BeepSmile, @Wheel of time

In @Azel's absence, I'm altering his plan slightly to bring it in line with a lot of us are asking for. All I've changed is the red line below, substituting the blue line in its place.

-[] You do not wish to break their culture, but to see it rise to greater heights.

[X] Azel's plan, but no mention of claiming to have no plans to break the Ironborn culture
-[X] About mindflayers, that you suspect the Drowned God is a front for whatever leads them, the Thousand Isles and the parallels between it and the Iron Isles.
-[X] Bring out the stuffed Ulitharid if Asha is disbelieving.
-[X] That you wish to break the claim of the Drowned God on the Iron Isles and that you wish to see the Ironborn rise above the reputation of traitors and worthless brigands they have in Westeros. The same sorcery that has wrought the recent changes on the Stepstones can be used there.
-[X] We wish to preserve their people rather than allow them to be the pawns of monsters. Or worse, food.
-[X] Give Asha the axe you've had customized for her as a sign of your support for her ascension to the throne of Pyke.
-[X] Offer Theon a bow made from Dragonbone, though you are operating on a rather tight schedule for at least the next two months, so it might be a bit until you can enchant it for him.
 
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Shouldn't we shill that the Iron Islands abandon the Drowned God for the Merling King? He also represents the sea, and is far more palatable to boot.

Although, is it possible that the Elder Brain tricked Damphair into believing it to be the Drowned God? It'd be funny if the Drowned God isn't actually as bad as we'd assumed all this time.
 
Paradosi said:
Shouldn't we shill that the Iron Islands abandon the Drowned God for the Merling King? He also represents the sea, and is far more palatable to boot.

Although, is it possible that the Elder Brain tricked Damphair into believing it to be the Drowned God? It'd be funny if the Drowned God isn't actually as bad as we'd assumed all this time.
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He is, apparently drowny is the enemy of the Merling King, which is basically the drowned god, but no on stupid evil.
 
Fuck! We forgot to ask Bloodraven about the seastone chair.
->Viserys knows it exists from background knowledge,
->Magic Stories tend to have something to them
->Drowny worship in the Iron Islands

Viserys should know to ask IC. Damm. :(
 
BeepSmile said:
Fuck! We forgot to ask Bloodraven about the seastone chair.
->Viserys knows it exists from background knowledge,
->Magic Stories tend to have something to them
->Drowny worship in the Iron Islands

Viserys should know to ask IC. Damm. :(
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Even if we'd remembered to include it in my list of questions, the thread was losing patience with asking so many questions update after update (and it was taking a toll on poor DP as well). We can ask him next time no problem.
 
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