Also, "coddling" seems harsh. Rhaella is an asset. She has the same potential as Viserys and Dany when it comes to magic, she is a Targaryen with long experience in courtly matters and held a front-row seat in the mismanagement of the Seven Kingdoms. These are all very good and useful things.

We decided to bring her back despite the shock it would entail. Treating her as a slow-witted underling for not immediately adjusting and falling in line isn't the way, especially since she's highly motivated to get up to speed.

As for Heart's Ease, the difference is that when you're standing in an acid bath, applying healing and painkillers doesn't actually fix the issue. For a permanent solution the acid situation first needs to be resolved, and that means allowing Rhaella to gather her own facts and verify that the situation is as Viserys and Dany depicts it.

Telling her "this is how it's gonna be" may be cathartic, but I don't see what other benefit it has.
 
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We decided to bring her back despite the shock it would entail. Treating her as a slow-witted underling for not immediately adjusting and falling in line isn't the way, especially since she's highly motivated to get up to speed.
Again. We didn't.

Bringing her back was automatic. There was never a vote to do it, not even in the far past.
 
Of course all that doesn't matter so much because even if Hearts Ease was working properly Viserys would still apparently hate himself for using magic to help solve a problem that magic is uniquely suited to solving in this specific instance (which I find baffling, but I'm not Viserys :confused:) So we need to use the kid gloves for his benefit as much as hers.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[X] Snowfire
 
Of course all that doesn't matter so much because even if Hearts Ease was working properly Viserys would still apparently hate himself for using magic to help solve a problem that magic is uniquely suited to solving in this specific instance (which I find baffling, but I'm not Viserys :confused:) So we need to use the kid gloves for his benefit as much as hers.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[X] Snowfire

I think that the problem is that Viserys would see needing to resorting to Heart's Ease as failure on the whole "Don't break the muggle mother's mind" thing Snowfire's been handling for us.
 
Well made quest characters do in fact sometimes have personalities and desires that don't line up with the wishes of the player base. In other news, water is wet.
Pardon, I was speaking from a Watsonian perspective, and that terminology is abominable so if you shoot me now I will understand.
I merely wanted to object to the notion that we wanted this and are thus not allowed to be annoyed at the drama her Ressurection causes.
 
Well made quest characters do in fact sometimes have personalities and desires that don't line up with the wishes of the player base. In other news, water is wet.
Of course, but Azel's reminders usually come after someone in the thread responds to the quite resonable frustration the independent character action has caused the player base (yourself included) with some variation of "you made your bed, now lie in it"

When we did not in fact make this bed.
 
As Goldfish pointed out, while I did not in fact ask for this, I welcome the character interactions and the last dozen or so updates have been a real treat.
 
[X] Feathers in the Wind
-[X] "Thank you, mother, but I'm afraid it's more complicated than that. It's fortunate that you talked of Dorne, however. I've told you of the aid I've given them, I think, but I treated with Prince Doran on the matter of the agreement made in the name of our house eight years ago." Breath. "I offered Dorne something other than my hand, and they accepted. Tyene's words were very correct in calling your return a hope for the future, given what I promised. And it is a promise I have no intentions of breaking." Address dynastic alliance concerns first. This might confuse her a little, but it's important to get this in ahead of anything else. Securing our Southern flank, as it were.
-[X] "I've spoken of how the world has changed, of how magic has caused the lines of power to warp and shift given the power that mages can wield. Yet many still refuse to see that change, and so any sufficiently powerful ally would consider us a junior party in a dynastic alliance at best. At worst, their lack of understanding for the powers I and my companions wield could be a liability, preventing us from applying our full strength. I rule a Kingdom now, and that has been recognised, but it is a small one. And many can claim the right to the Iron Throne when they do not hold it." Logic on the matter of dynastic alliances, pointing out the potential weaknesses of one given our status within the feudal game. Also the beginning of explaining that it's starting to become hopelessly obsolete.
-[X] "And yet, when our power is understood by those who currently dismiss or try to avoid it, our backing of a single house in Westeros could send the entire realm into turmoil. With the Others stirring, that could prove a fatal development." More of the above.
-[X] "The Targaryens weren't always one of the Forty. They won their way into the Houses of Valyria through power, the same power as runs in my veins and that is mirrored by my companions. The Freehold prized magic above all else, both power in the Art and understanding of it. Sorcerer's Deep and my other holdings are its closest analogue, and it has been magic that has tended to my people, and held our walls against those who would seek to tear them asunder. Lya's knowledge of the forgotten arts goes beyond any of those in my company. In the days of Valyria, I have little doubt that if she wished to she would have founded her own dynasty." Further logic mixed with ancestral history, trying to solidify the place of Mage as equivalent to Noble without bringing it too close to Maester due to how they aren't marriage prospects at all.
-[X] "To marry one without such power would be to sentence them to the life of a caged bird, and no matter the gilding of that cage, it would still be a prison." Emotion mixed with logic, moving into the more emotional side of the argument to finish it. Rhaella lived that prison, after all. Our unwillingness to subject someone to it is likely to win some points somewhere.
-[X] "We have gone through fire and hell together, and if either of us were to fall, we have the knowledge and means to pursue the other's restoration. Her aid has saved Dany and I more often that I would care to count, and without her I doubt I would be standing here with you. And...I love her, mother, and she loves me. For all she has given, I could not ask her to be a mistress." The final words, emotional resolution following a chain of logic and reassurance.

Many thanks to other plan makers for the material I've scavenged from them for this. Now to be clear, I don't expect Rhaella to accept this. What I'm hoping for is a continuation of her willingness to learn and adapt to the new world. I'd have vastly preferred getting into this matter later, but if we're doing it now we do it right. You might wonder why Dorne is being brought up here at the start. It's quite simple. If we don't bring it up before we challenge the idea of Lya as a mistress, it looks like we just trying to justify. If we bring it up before, we're still trying to justify, but it looks different.

What we have here is pretty complicated, but it's the best thing I've been able to draw together to properly resolve the issue. Step by step, it goes like this:
  1. Address dynastic alliance concerns, show that it still holds, but with a new bargain.
  2. Address the changing state of dynastic and feudal politics, carefully.
  3. Layer history and heritage on top of this, in how our House rose to power and nobility within Valyria.
    1. In this, we are trying to merge the classification of Noble (or Knight) with Mage.
    2. Something on the Knight classification, one of the King Consorts to a previous Targ queen was knighted two weeks in advance of the wedding, as his status wasn't seen to be sufficient for such a role.
  4. Emotional concerns, with some relation to her own life as Queen. It was a cage in all but name, and we won't inflict that on someone after seeing what it did to her.
  5. Double down on Lya's ability and power, and her undeniable affection for and loyalty towards us. She's an equal in all but one thing, the station of her blood, and others have been made Knights to be 'worthy' of being consort to a ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.
That's pretty much it. Comments and suggestions most welcome, as always.
 
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As Goldfish pointed out, while I did not in fact ask for this, I welcome the character interactions and the last dozen or so updates have been a real treat.

Oh same, it's made for great story, and Snowfire has done an amazing job navigating the apparent minefield.
Side note:
@Snowfire consider this an official retraction of my statement that you were overreacting. I was wrong, you were right.
Apparently your very careful plans are the only thing keeping the sky from falling :rofl:.
 
As Goldfish pointed out, while I did not in fact ask for this, I welcome the character interactions and the last dozen or so updates have been a real treat.
I enjoyed them too, but I draw the line at mom trying to meddle in policy when we can't argue her into submission.

Just because she doesn't like something, we are not going to change our course.
 
I enjoyed them too, but I draw the line at mom trying to meddle in policy when we can't argue her into submission.

Just because she doesn't like something, we are not going to change our course.

The problem with seeing things this way is that she's trying to help in the only way she knows how. Rejecting that...eeesh. Like, I understand the annoyance. I truly do. But there's no real way to avoid it, and that's just down to the person that Viserys is. We're not going to change course, I'm entirely committed to the relationship with Lya. It's just that situation as it stands requires a gentler touch that we've never really had to use. And that's...grating.
 
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Just wait until you get your first belligerent Great House nobles bitching and moaning about this state of affairs.

That won't be grating. It'll be amusing.
 
It's a core loop kind of mechanic. Most of our progression has been due to AD;AI.

When you throw a spanner in there, it kind of gets clogged up until we remember how to interact with puny mortals again.
 
Fair enough. Still, even though it was Viserys' own decision, that decision was informed by the character shaped by the players in this thread. It seems reasonable to assume that would be one strong motivation. I'm not advocating "you made your bed", I'm saying one cannot expect people to be more than human.

I only came into the story by reading the threadmarks, so I didn't twig to the attitudes toward Rhaella. Was the resurrection idea so unpopular? Because otherwise, I'd think Viserys would be above essentially forcing a powerless person to accept his point of view. Because let's face it, the more facts Rhaella absorbs from sources outside her own son, the more she'll realize the truth behind his concerns. And that allows her to be Viserys' ally, which she wants to be.

When Robb Stark blew off Catelyn about Jeyne Westerling, the subtext was clear: he'd fucked up and wanted to avoid admitting his error. Viserys strikes me as far more introspective, and less likely to alienate those closest to him out of pique.
 
Just wait until you get your first belligerent Great House nobles bitching and moaning about this state of affairs.

That won't be grating. It'll be amusing.

I believe that that interaction can be adequately described as Pizza Roll Revolt AC [Whatever the fuck the year is].

The resolution to which involved a great and powerful Nom.
 
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That's pretty much the core of it for me. I'm aware that she is only trying to help, but she hits all the wrong buttons while doing so. Meanwhile we can't even politely explain our reasoning, since it might overwhelm her.

@Crake is right. If Mace Tyrell would have advised us to give up trading abd make Lya our mistress, we would be laughing in his face now.
 
At the very least I hope I can go to sleep now secure in the knowledge that this drama should put the kibosh on all that talk of going resurrection Pokémon collecting with various figures from Planetos history?

Would you guys really be willing to put up with this shit from anyone but our mother?
 
That's pretty much the core of it for me. I'm aware that she is only trying to help, but she hits all the wrong buttons while doing so. Meanwhile we can't even politely explain our reasoning, since it might overwhelm her.

I feel for you, man. I do. Just give it a bit more time, we'll get there.

@Crake is right. If Mace Tyrell would have advised us to give up trading abd make Lya our mistress, we would be laughing in his face now.

He'd have a face? You're slipping :p
 
If Mace Tyrell would have advised us to give up trading abd make Lya our mistress, we would be laughing in his face now.

That's fair. But that would mean Mace Tyrell has as much political insight as someone who's been dead for the last eight years.

Possibly true, but a bit harsh, yeah?
 
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