Mizu
Software Developer
- Location
- Victoria, Australia
Whoops, so it should be. Forgot what context I nabbed it for beyond that it was missing an end . of some sort.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
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I assume that amulet here refers to refers to the jewel in the centre of the ritual area? It wasn't an amulet in the show nor described as such in the episode in question.
Ferris Wheel
Just posting through
- Location
- United Kingdom
The paragon orange lantern conducts long term campaign of character assassination before killing dr fate mirrors renegade's casual murder of klarion. It's times like these where it becomes clear which one is really the heroic version and which is the villainous version.
It's easy to be heroic versus a straw man enemy. I'm not looking forward to the resolution of this plot-line given the lengths Mr Zoat seems to take to make Fate look bad.
Also alot of preaching done by Paul this episode inviting the view that the JL are incompetent while the SI isn't. Maybe a scene somewhere (Batman discussing with the rest of the JL) that not everything Paul said is correct or that he misjudged a situation. These are people doing heroic work in some cases longer than Paul has been alive.
Also alot of preaching done by Paul this episode inviting the view that the JL are incompetent while the SI isn't. Maybe a scene somewhere (Batman discussing with the rest of the JL) that not everything Paul said is correct or that he misjudged a situation. These are people doing heroic work in some cases longer than Paul has been alive.
Silverias
Seeing is Believing
- Location
- Squiddy Places
Something to remember...This is someone from a fully, entirely logical universe (aka, ours)
Everything flows from something here. It might not make sense, it might even be senseless, but it all comes form SOMETHING.
YJ is a cartoon, and is subject to tropes. Addressing those tropes makes it very very obvious that OL operates on a very different standard of competent.
- Location
- DC... huh?
Interesting. I had misinterpreted earlier statements...
These lines and sequence suggested to me that Klarion was not a true Lord of Chaos, but an empowered avatar of one. That Mordru was the Lord of Chaos and Klarion was simply channeling his power. In context I interpreted this to also mean that Nabu, given the required balance in the Universe, was not in fact a true Lord of Order, but instead an Agent of Order. This interpretation changes the meaning of Nabu's responses.
Nabu is following a pattern of reaction. Believing Order to be superior despite evidence to the contrary. An experience shared in part by Lantern Jordan. Each are empowered agents facing evidence that their power and skill set is insufficient. Unlike Nabu, Lantern Jordan has Lantern Gardner, and more recently Lantern Stewert, to demonstrate that the failure is not with the Light of Will, but only his expression of it. Nabu does not have any contemporary Order-aligned allies. With only a belief that Order is superior, Nabu knows the weakness is himself and his own judgement and retreats into the role of "Lord of Order." With his own judgment removed, Nabu limits the magic he uses in favor of large, powerful spells to prove the strength of Order magic, which reduces his capacity to react further diminishing his value. Perhaps Lantern Jordan and Nabu can form a support group, or Lantern Jordan can share with Nabu his experience with Sinestro and the potential failings of relying too heavily on Order.
These lines and sequence suggested to me that Klarion was not a true Lord of Chaos, but an empowered avatar of one. That Mordru was the Lord of Chaos and Klarion was simply channeling his power. In context I interpreted this to also mean that Nabu, given the required balance in the Universe, was not in fact a true Lord of Order, but instead an Agent of Order. This interpretation changes the meaning of Nabu's responses.
Nabu is following a pattern of reaction. Believing Order to be superior despite evidence to the contrary. An experience shared in part by Lantern Jordan. Each are empowered agents facing evidence that their power and skill set is insufficient. Unlike Nabu, Lantern Jordan has Lantern Gardner, and more recently Lantern Stewert, to demonstrate that the failure is not with the Light of Will, but only his expression of it. Nabu does not have any contemporary Order-aligned allies. With only a belief that Order is superior, Nabu knows the weakness is himself and his own judgement and retreats into the role of "Lord of Order." With his own judgment removed, Nabu limits the magic he uses in favor of large, powerful spells to prove the strength of Order magic, which reduces his capacity to react further diminishing his value. Perhaps Lantern Jordan and Nabu can form a support group, or Lantern Jordan can share with Nabu his experience with Sinestro and the potential failings of relying too heavily on Order.
While exploiting those tropes is the basis for the story, doing it over and over (and over) again leads to scenes that feel pretty much like bashing for the sake of bashing. Has Dr Fate ever had a positive portrayal in the story? This is an enemy of OL's own making and while that could lead to interesting places it mostly feels like Mr Zoat just has a hate on for him, same as Superman.
Also saying that OL is competent is one thing, having him teach the JL how to do their jobs is another. One of my constant gripes (for the Renegade side as well) is the pretense that OL is the only one allowed to act. The rest of the cast just react to things he does or prods them to do. It reads as even more of a power fantasy fulfillment than it already is as an SI fic.
EnygmaSoul
Company of Negotiable Virtue
- Location
- In your eyes and in your arms and in your head.
One could argue that in MOST works of fiction, the only characters who "act" as you are describing are the primary protagonists and antagonists. Everyone else in the story is reacting to situations precipitated by those actions.
This is an Orange Lantern story. One should not be expecting, for example, The Flash, to be a primary actor in an Orange Lantern story any more than you would expect Detective Chimp to be a primary actor in a Flash story. That's just how the concept of supporting cast WORKS.
hance1986
The One Above All.
Zoat, wondering what the aliens in the League think of Nabu. If it's not too spoilery, what has Hawkwoman said in any reports about 'Nabu, Cillian, Lord of Order'? Has she ever met any still mortal Cillians and can make a comparison?
What does Arnus/Icon think of Nabu, especially recently? What does J'onn J'onzz think?
What does Arnus/Icon think of Nabu, especially recently? What does J'onn J'onzz think?
You do not need to kill a Lord of Chaos to neutralize him/her, though; the JSA booted Mordru into a Bleed portal.
Most Lords of Chaos are not so casual with the exercise of power on muggles, which is what got Klarion kill-ordered by acclamation.
We've had other Lords of Chaos seen or mentioned so far in this story(Shivering Jemmy, The Changing Man), and those have managed to restrain themselves from killing six-digit figures of children.
Even bloody Mordru didn't manage to get himself on everyone's shitlist.
I note that this did not prevent more Lords of Chaos showing up.
And like I pointed out, few Lords of Chaos are as terrible for everyone else as Klarion.
Shivering Jemmy came and left so subtly that OL didn't even notice when she and Eris visited the Hall of Justice, and ParaPaul has talked to the Changing Man.
The problem with Klarion isn't that he's a Lord of Chaos, it's that he's a dick.
somnolentSlumber
(Verified Proofreader)
- Location
- hell
pretty sure certificate isnt a verb
PostwarGryphon
Traveller of Planes
- Location
- Australia
It might be that she had the name given to her by others, and by the time she knew she couldn't do anything about it.
Oh hey. I had forgotten that the Changing Man is a Lord of Chaos here (and that is pretty much all I know about him).
Who would win if Nabu found out about him? I'm guessing the Changing Man.
- Location
- United States
Perhaps because he is feeling rage. When humans are angry, they tend towards acting irrational.
Also:
But they are magical ponies!
Nabu is a villain in this fanfic, and the SI hates him for upsetting his friend. Of course, the story itself, outside of OL's speculation and Nabu's dislike of him, Dr. Fate has not really done anything he has not done in the canon YJ cartoon, it is just that he is not being treated as a hero here.
You have to realize there is a reason why they are having Paul do an evaluation: because they recognize he specializes in this.
Thinking of a better idea: How about someone give OL an analysis of what he could be doing better, and him honestly trying to improve based on it.
It sounds like anyone who criticizes a character that you like is "bashing".
That said, Nabu is an enemy of OL's making. In canon, Nabu acted like a dick at first, he was called out on it exactly once, it was dropped, and he acts like a normal superhero off screen. Here, the SI is going out of his way punish someone who, let's be honest, did something morally dubious and got away with it in Canon.
If what the author says is true, the whole Nabu fiasco is going to have serious consequences on OL's relationship with the League. In Canon, their reason for having Dr. Fate as a part of the League was to "keep an eye on him". Batman could have been planning a much better plan to subvert Nabu and OL wouldn't even know. Heck, they could've done something in Canon that allowed Zatara to interact with his daughter on Weekends or something and we would never know because they spent much of season two off-screen.
Sithking Zero
High Priest of the First Church of The Deputy
- Location
- Here
No... His problem isn't that he's a fan of being the only one at the big table, it's that Nabu is... well, he's insane.
Now, I know that on SB and SF that term gets thrown around a lot, and the term doesn't mean what it necessarily means in the real world, but I truly think that Nabu is suffering from actual insanity because he was left alone for thousands of years with no one to talk to. The only one he had to interact with the rest of the world were his hosts, and those vanished until Nelson showed up. After experiencing the world so briefly, he was stuck back on a shelf for decades. To quote the Doctor, "You gave me hope and then snatched it away. That would destroy most men, God knows what it will do to me."
So yes, he stole the body of a human. But he's TERRIFIED of what will happen if he's no longer needed. He knows that they'll just stick him on a shelf and forget all about him... again, and then he'd be only left with himself.
Suddenly, here's Orange Lantern, whom he realizes is not only trying to off him, but stands a pretty good chance of doing so. Worse, he's advocating just getting rid of the Helmet entirely, which would condemn him to death. And on top of ALL of that, he worships Chaos. Thousands of years with only yourself as company has reinforced Nabu's ideals to near fanatical levels, so listening to Paul is NOT going to be on his agenda ever. And the thought of making him replacable means that the League will finally start looking into getting that bucket off of Giovani's head.
He claims to be acting for Order, but it is a corrupted version of order that allows him to live... no matter how many must suffer and die as a response to that need. Needs of the many, and all that.
- Location
- United States
Interesting point of view. Rather poignant.
MiskWisk
Hoot
- Location
- Somewhere devoid of wit
- Pronouns
- He
No he isn't. At all.
Clark only ever had an issue with being cloned and he does realise that he was wrong at the end of season 1. It is in fact a situation entirely created by OL that he and Conner never worked past their issues with each other (admittedly Conner no longer cares over much thanks to Diana) when he snapped at him and stopped his attempt at reconciling.
Sure, you might say he doesn't deserve the chance to reconcile with Conner but that was never OL's decision to make but Conner's.
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
No, he became a helmet when he was dying to preserve himself. I think he has always been a LoO while on Earth.
In addition to what other have said, he hasn't really been hiding his animosity, he's been hiding his plans to kill Nabu. This is a useful opportunity to drive a wedge between the League and Nabu, or at least show that Nabu actively and irrationally hates someone that the rest of the League likes.
Not really. Batman honestly could have suggested most of this, but it was said he wanted it coming from an outside source. And it's not "Everyone here is incompetent while I'm amazing." He's just suggesting ways to improve individuals and the League as a whole. And as someone else said, this is his specialty, showing ways to improve. He's not giving lessons on super strength combat or criminal investigation, he's saying that some people have easy ways to improve their effectiveness or reduce their weaknesses.
It's been mentioned multiple times that League members give lessons on their various areas of specialty. This is really no different, but with a larger audience and the roles reversed.
VaporWare
Futuristic Robot with Turing Compliant Action
- Location
- The Future
Didn't he at one point flat out suggest to...Wonder Woman, I think it was? That he considered Nabu to be a supervillain?
Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yep!
I kind of love how his inner monologue implies that, if John were stronger, Paul would favor him for the League for the same reasons as Circe.
Also, Mr Zoat, there's a space between the end of Paul's first spoken sentence and the quotation mark that shouldn't be there.
Impartial Panic
unbiased hysteria
- Location
- Padded cell
In this case he can show some of his animosity because he's trying to point out how the league can be improved and he's trying to see if he can get the rest of the league to pull their heads out of their asses and resolve the Dr. Fate problem without O.L. using extreme sanction.
Also the League Knows Paul hates the guy and by showing this bit of passive aggressive attack on him they actually have less reason to worry about what paul is planing.
When he makes some noise they "know" what paul is up to but when he's keeping quiet then they worry.
by doing this they think Paul will limit himself to making verbal pokes at Nabu, he even offers Nabu a new body so with the possible exception of batman most of the league don't know he's going to find a way to End nabu once and for all.
- Location
- United States
Yes, but I think you are misremembering the relationship between OL and Superman. The only time he was a dick about it was his Renegade Interrupt.
"I.. need your advice. I-."
"Don't worry about it, sir. No one's ever been able to pull off the external underwear look."
An amused exhalation. "No, you made your feelings on my costume very clear. I wanted to talk to you about Superboy." Oh? "You're his closest friend. I've been thinking about what Batman and Diana said and I think.. I'd like to build some sort of relationship with him. I was wondering what you thought the best way would be to go about doing that."
Eh? Why would..?
"Sir, I… Look, I understand finding out he exists was a pretty unpleasant shock for you. And Batman and Diana putting pressure on you to assume responsibility made it worse and… Well, I was in the same mental place they were and that was unreasonable. He isn't your son. Really, there was no more reason for you to build a closer relationship with him that with.. someone completely random."
"I.. don't know that I'd go that far. I think it was mostly the idea that Luthor had been cloning-."
"Thing is sir, it's been six months. He has friends, a girlfriend and a mother who loves him and whom he loves in return. You opted out of his life -which is fine, fine, I understand why- and now there's no you shaped hole in it. He neither needs nor wants you, and all you trying to get involved now will do is.. mess him about. If you want to talk to him, he's just up there." I point up at the main hall. "But I'm not helping you patch things up when there's never been anything there to break."
Translated from Paul-speak, he was saying that OL will not help Superman get close to Kon-El because he doesn't want to betray his friend.
Of course, compared to what Renegade did (which was basically go all yandere over Superboy), it was downright polite. He was not forbidding Superman from interacting with Superboy, he was just saying "Conner doesn't need you, so I won't help you." Which is kind of a dick move, since Superman honestly wants to make up for being a jerk to Superboy, but the problem is with OL not wanting to let the issue go out of fear of hurting Conner.
VaporWare
Futuristic Robot with Turing Compliant Action
- Location
- The Future
I am also compelled to note that the moment Paul thought he had a non-violent way out (the golem body) he jumped to it, even putting it forth right here in front of everyone in the hopes of achieving a peaceful resolution that benefited everyone, /including Nabu/. He had a great deal of /hope/ that he might not need to fight/destroy Nabu, for a lot of reasons (among them that he doesn't want to risk hurting Giovani, but I imagine he'd just as soon not have to kill Nabu if he doesn't have to in any case...Nabu may be insufferably alien in his views, but he's still on balance a useful asset to the League and nominally aligned with, if not accomplishing much good, at least stopping great evils like Klarion).
Having that hope thrown in his face by Nabu's dogged rejection of reasonable alternatives based on ideological rather than pragmatic grounds much informs some of Paul's current rage towards him.
I don't think it's so much that the League thinks Paul will limit himself to verbally sparring with Nabu as that this exchange undermines Nabu's relationship with the League and highlights the ways in which he is incapable of adapting his viewpoint to changing circumstances. As a Lord of Order, Nabu is very much aligned to the maintenance of the status quo...whatever the status quo /is/. Some folks have suggested that he never really got 'serious' against Klarion because removing Klarion would fundamentally change the status quo between the various Lords of Whatever.
The Lords of Order are, ultimately, no more caring about individual lives than the Lords of Chaos. Nabu did not fight Klarion during the Roanoke incident because it was morally good, not because he at all cared for the thousands of dead and suffering, but because by inflicting such harm Klarion had upset the world's basic routines on a grand scale.
That's something I don't think the League has ever entirely understood. That for something like Nabu, what matters is the predictability of the world. Even if it is predictably horrible.
By goading Nabu into revealing his limits to the League by rejecting a desire to /improve/ the status quo in what appear to be unambiguously good ways, Paul has underscored this issue for them.
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