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After months of lying to his superiors to prevent Nabu knowing about his animosity… he shoves his animosity in Nabu's face for no apparent gain. While he still has four months to go before he is ready.
Why?
Because he does NOT want to have to fight BOTH Nabu and the entire League. He wants the League on his side, or at the very least neutral when the fight happens. For that to happen he need to hit them on the head with the "Nabu is a bad guy" Clue Bat hard enough that is sinks in.

Remember he had actually said to Wonder Woman (paraphrasing here) "If you are actually going to recruit a supervillian into the Justice League, Circe is a better choice then Nabu."

Where Circe is one of Wonder Woman's Rogues Gallery of villains. Instead of actually considering that, and the Bad Stuff (TM) Nabu had quite recently done at that point in time, which she was also complicit in, she decides to treat what OL said as a joke and induct Nabu into the League while he is wearing her friends stolen body as a suit, rather then face some inconvenient truths about what the whole affair says about her as a person.

So obviously, that previous Clue Bat impact setting and frequency was insufficient. So he readjusted his grip on the old Clue Bat, and tried again.

Also, remember that this whole situation can be traced back to a betrayal of Nabu by the Justice Society, of which Wonder Woman was also a founding member. From what we have been told in the story so far, Nabu and [can't be bothered to look of the dead guys name] were partners as Dr. Fate (Dum dum dum), but Nabu was an ass hole in that relationship, and to was implied he tried to sabotage Mr. Nelsons [think that was the name] personal relationships so he would have less social contacts, and less reason to be anything other than Dr. Fate. Yes, this is incredibly fucked up. No, all bad deeds do not merit the same sentence, and 50 years of solitary confinement is way out of proportion to the crime.

Now, Mr. Nelson was able to find someone and get hitched anyway. Good for him! And his new wife convinced him to just, NOT be Dr. Fate anymore. OK so far. Apparently that somehow translated into "Put him on a shelf for 50 years unless I feel like reliving old times for an evening every few years or so."

So now we get to talk about Superhero Racism and Fair Weather Friends. Because for Nabu to be treated this way required the rest of the Justice Society to be complicit in their silence. These were his Team members, and really should have been looking out for him. Instead Nelson locks him in the house for years at a time and does not let him leave, and everyone else goes "I'm sure everything's OK." Because they did not really see Nabu as an actual person, but more like an accessory to be worn by the people who actually matter, the homo sapien sapiens club, AI don't count, nor do possessed helmets.

And this is still going on in the present day. It seems like Nabu let Nelson treat him that way because they had an agreement, and he was horribly, horribly mistreated. So for the next host, he decided not to actually make an agreement he would be Orderly Bound to, just take. The deal was sealed when the "New" Justice Society, the League said they would find him a new teammate, and instead Wally put him in the Trophy Room. So when Zatarra puts him on now to discuss hosts, but because the shit has hit the fan, again, he notes she has not Idea about finding him a host. At this point, Fuck them all. Treat them like the betrayers and Oathbreakers they are. No deals that benefit them over me, no more Mr. Nice Guy.

And Nabu is a villain. And to play devils advocate here, Zatana was the one who said to the team and Paul (in regards to the host situation, and again paraphrasing here) "This decision will be decided by the League, leave it to us" So Zatana was the one who 1: explicitly took responsibility for the matter on behalf of the League, and 2: denied anyone else involved input or any ability to help.

And then he put on Nabu's helmet, and Nabu could presumably see exactly how much effort they had (or had not) put into the matter.

TLDR, Nabu is a Villain because the JL and it's predecessor the JS was institutionally racist against people they did not consider human (like him), betrayed him as a fellow member and teammate, and basically broke their obligations to him at every opportunity. This conga line was Nabu's Villain Origin Story, instigated by the "Defenders of Law & Order" and they burned his trust in EVERYONE. Paul works for the JL, who he cannot afford to trust, and ALSO worships a goddess of discord. He gets no trust extended to him, because all the other superheroes took ALL THE TRUST, poured gasoline on it, and set it on fire.

So Nabu thinks he NEEDS a human body to actually be treated as a person, and this is all a trap by people who have broken faith with him before. Of special note is Wonder Woman, who was there when this all began, and did absolutely nothing to help. She has a lot invested in not thinking about it critically. So she does not, and instead votes Nabu onto the League, because it is easier than owning up to her part in the matter.
 
How do we know that he wasn't lying? When Wonder "I-will-know-instantaneously-if-you-lie-to-me" Woman was in the room?

I guess there's just no way to know if Dr Fate was being truthful.[/sarcasm]
On the other hand, one doesn't need to lie in order to deceive.

Noble: "No, minion, I don't believe we should kill the king."
Spy: "I heard that Noble talking with his minion about killing the king."
 
we can't make such blanket statements, especially when half are deliberately focused around an extremely contentious issue.

Because he does NOT want to have to fight BOTH Nabu and the entire League. He wants the League on his side, or at the very least neutral when the fight happens. For that to happen he need to hit them on the head with the "Nabu is a bad guy" Clue Bat hard enough that is sinks in.

Remember he had actually said to Wonder Woman (paraphrasing here) "If you are actually going to recruit a supervillian into the Justice League, Circe is a better choice then Nabu."

Where Circe is one of Wonder Woman's Rogues Gallery of villains. Instead of actually considering that, and the Bad Stuff (TM) Nabu had quite recently done at that point in time, which she was also complicit in, she decides to treat what OL said as a joke and induct Nabu into the League while he is wearing her friends stolen body as a suit, rather then face some inconvenient truths about what the whole affair says about her as a person.

So obviously, that previous Clue Bat impact setting and frequency was insufficient. So he readjusted his grip on the old Clue Bat, and tried again.

Also, remember that this whole situation can be traced back to a betrayal of Nabu by the Justice Society, of which Wonder Woman was also a founding member. From what we have been told in the story so far, Nabu and [can't be bothered to look of the dead guys name] were partners as Dr. Fate (Dum dum dum), but Nabu was an ass hole in that relationship, and to was implied he tried to sabotage Mr. Nelsons [think that was the name] personal relationships so he would have less social contacts, and less reason to be anything other than Dr. Fate. Yes, this is incredibly fucked up. No, all bad deeds do not merit the same sentence, and 50 years of solitary confinement is way out of proportion to the crime.

Now, Mr. Nelson was able to find someone and get hitched anyway. Good for him! And his new wife convinced him to just, NOT be Dr. Fate anymore. OK so far. Apparently that somehow translated into "Put him on a shelf for 50 years unless I feel like reliving old times for an evening every few years or so."

So now we get to talk about Superhero Racism and Fair Weather Friends. Because for Nabu to be treated this way required the rest of the Justice Society to be complicit in their silence. These were his Team members, and really should have been looking out for him. Instead Nelson locks him in the house for years at a time and does not let him leave, and everyone else goes "I'm sure everything's OK." Because they did not really see Nabu as an actual person, but more like an accessory to be worn by the people who actually matter, the homo sapien sapiens club, AI don't count, nor do possessed helmets.

And this is still going on in the present day. It seems like Nabu let Nelson treat him that way because they had an agreement, and he was horribly, horribly mistreated. So for the next host, he decided not to actually make an agreement he would be Orderly Bound to, just take. The deal was sealed when the "New" Justice Society, the League said they would find him a new teammate, and instead Wally put him in the Trophy Room. So when Zatarra puts him on now to discuss hosts, but because the shit has hit the fan, again, he notes she has not Idea about finding him a host. At this point, Fuck them all. Treat them like the betrayers and Oathbreakers they are. No deals that benefit them over me, no more Mr. Nice Guy.

And Nabu is a villain. And to play devils advocate here, Zatana was the one who said to the team and Paul (in regards to the host situation, and again paraphrasing here) "This decision will be decided by the League, leave it to us" So Zatana was the one who 1: explicitly took responsibility for the matter on behalf of the League, and 2: denied anyone else involved input or any ability to help.

And then he put on Nabu's helmet, and Nabu could presumably see exactly how much effort they had (or had not) put into the matter.

TLDR, Nabu is a Villain because the JL and it's predecessor the JS was institutionally racist against people they did not consider human (like him), betrayed him as a fellow member and teammate, and basically broke their obligations to him at every opportunity. This conga line was Nabu's Villain Origin Story, instigated by the "Defenders of Law & Order" and they burned his trust in EVERYONE. Paul works for the JL, who he cannot afford to trust, and ALSO worships a goddess of discord. He gets no trust extended to him, because all the other superheroes took ALL THE TRUST, poured gasoline on it, and set it on fire.

So Nabu thinks he NEEDS a human body to actually be treated as a person, and this is all a trap by people who have broken faith with him before. Of special note is Wonder Woman, who was there when this all began, and did absolutely nothing to help. She has a lot invested in not thinking about it critically. So she does not, and instead votes Nabu onto the League, because it is easier than owning up to her part in the matter.

Yeah, possession can be a tricky subject.
 
I wonder how Paul's going to explain his massive fight with Nabu over London to the press? Will he go the paragon option and cover the Justice League's ass? Or will he go for Renegade, and tell the whole horrible story? Or do I have Paragon and Renegade mixed up?
 
It's not so much competence as realism. Both Watchtower 12s were built secretly by Wayne Industries. How the heck did that happen?
Be single largest shareholder of the company, be in charge of the company. Embezzle/Black Gov't Contract.
Also Gotham. Lot of corruption inf Gotham, and Batman only goes after the physically violent ones.

Combine that with the concerns the league would have about superpower propagation and it's a valid point.
Gotta keep that Just Us League exclusive!

And remember that kal isn't 100% rational about cloning.
Just call be Kal-"Fuck the Resurrection of the Kryptionan race, by father should have let me blow up with everyone else on the planet"-El.

In Canon, their reason for having Dr. Fate as a part of the League was to "keep an eye on him". Batman could have been planning a much better plan to subvert Nabu and OL wouldn't even know.
Maybe this guy has a secret plan he is not telling me is not a good reason to do nothing. Kon's brother is healed in the Renegade timeline, and not here, because Paul unjustly trusted Superman and the League was taking the matter seriously. And he trusted they were working on the Nabu issue before Zatarra put on the Helmet. They had their chance.

Remember a magic user tried to Put Out The Sun before Klarion Killed All the Children, and it is not like Klarions Evil Plan happened before the Leagues Magical Defenses came online; the League never even tried to do something like that. Blight, saying stuff like that is why Lex Luthor thinks the League cause more harm in the long run than good. Just blindly assuming Someone In the League Has Had a Plan All Along and not doing anything has not really worked out for Paul here.

Translated from Paul-speak, he was saying that OL will not help Superman get close to Kon-El because he doesn't want to betray his friend.
To me he was saying "You can strike a relationship with him, but it is to late to be a Parent to him, Wonder Woman has taken that role." He never said Supes couldn't have a relationship with him, Clark gave up when he found out he would not be able to have the type of relationship he wanted. Kal-El could have been a friend to Conner, maybe even a mentor eventually, but he chose not to try once he knew it was to late for a Father - Son relationship. Which is... yeah.

Not in canon. He said that becoming Doctor Fate involves "becoming one" with his host, and while in Giovanni's body was overprotective of Zatanna, albeit through a lens of Fate snootyness. In Zoats story it may be different, but it's starting to edge into character bashing.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that maybe you shouldn't just take the word of the Body Snatcher about the Meat Suits participation in the whole affair. Maybe ask Giovanni's opinion on the matter after he has had the helmet removed, is not under a Magic Oath to wear it, and has had a couple weeks to distance himself from the situation and any lingering influence. But right now, Nabu's assurances don't count for a whole lot.

=Time is cyclical and alternates between ages of science and ages of magic
Not everything ever published in a comic ever is true in this story. Unless it happened in YJ, it is not canon for this story unless Zoat has made it so. Has Zoat made this so?
 
Just call be Kal-"Fuck the Resurrection of the Kryptionan race, by father should have let me blow up with everyone else on the planet"-El.

I have a major issue with this right here. Cloning is, among other things, on shaky grounds morally. "Playing God", if you will. That, combined with the fact that cloning Kryptonians is really hard might be a major deterrent to any plans Superman might have for reviving his race.

Maybe this guy has a secret plan he is not telling me is not a good reason to do nothing. Kon's brother is healed in the Renegade timeline, and not here, because Paul unjustly trusted Superman and the League was taking the matter seriously. And he trusted they were working on the Nabu issue before Zatarra put on the Helmet. They had their chance.

Remember a magic user tried to Put Out The Sun before Klarion Killed All the Children, and it is not like Klarions Evil Plan happened before the Leagues Magical Defenses came online; the League never even tried to do something like that. Blight, saying stuff like that is why Lex Luthor thinks the League cause more harm in the long run than good. Just blindly assuming Someone In the League Has Had a Plan All Along and not doing anything has not really worked out for Paul here.

... Kon is "healed" to a large extent in the Paragon timeline. He has a normal life in high school, with a loving mother (Diana), a girlfriend (M'gann), and a cool big brother type (Paul) along with a team he feels gives him a purpose and an entire country he feels a part of (the Amazons). Renegade might have him be in contact with another surviving Kryptonian and a younger brother (Match), but I would say that Kon is leagues better in his mental space compared to canon.

But as much as I would like to argue, the Justice League is largely incompetent with the whole Nabu things from our perspective. But you have to remember that this was not given all that much discussion in the cartoon. Zoat fills the holes that canon leaves behind, and he fills them with things that make the League seem incompetent.

To me he was saying "You can strike a relationship with him, but it is to late to be a Parent to him, Wonder Woman has taken that role." He never said Supes couldn't have a relationship with him, Clark gave up when he found out he would not be able to have the type of relationship he wanted. Kal-El could have been a friend to Conner, maybe even a mentor eventually, but he chose not to try once he knew it was to late for a Father - Son relationship. Which is... yeah.

I do have to agree with that. But Paul was not outright preventing Superman from trying to be nice to Kon and making up to Kon, just that Paul does not want to help with that because he feels Kon doesn't need Superman in his life anymore. It was still kind of a dick move, since Superman was honestly trying to make up for his mistake.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that maybe you shouldn't just take the word of the Body Snatcher about the Meat Suits participation in the whole affair. Maybe ask Giovanni's opinion on the matter after he has had the helmet removed, is not under a Magic Oath to wear it, and has had a couple weeks to distance himself from the situation and any lingering influence. But right now, Nabu's assurances don't count for a whole lot.

Agreed.
 
I think 'there is no clear criteria' is okay. Not completely sure.
A criterion is the basis on which something is determined.
More than one criteria can form multiple such bases.
When they do, they are okay.
Or they, plural, can be lacking, in which case there are no clear criteria, or there is no clear criterion.
Cloning is, among other things, on shaky grounds morally.
It's on exactly the same "shaky moral ground" as having a child (for the one doing the cloning) or having a twin sibling (for the one being cloned). Nevermind of course that genetically engineering your child by selecting traits you want from the gene databank (entirely without regard to the genetics of the parents if they wish) and having Brainiac assemble the zygote is standard Kryptonian prenatal care...
 
It's on exactly the same "shaky moral ground" as having a child (for the one doing the cloning) or having a twin sibling (for the one being cloned).

Not according to Catholicism. It's considered stepping into the realm of God to create life in any way other than the way He intended life to be made.

Nevermind of course that genetically engineering your child by selecting traits you want from the gene databank (entirely without regard to the genetics of the parents if they wish) and having Brainiac assemble the zygote is standard Kryptonian prenatal care...
Standard for Kryptonians, maybe. But Clark Kent was not exactly raised on Krypton, was he?
 
:rolleyes: Chill, guys. We can argue about the importance of a small portion of the worlds moral views later. :V

As for cloning, I would be more concerned with pointing out that cloning a significant force is pretty damn expensive. It's a fair bit easier in YJ because they have methods of fast growing them and teaching them quickly, but it should still be pretty impractical. In real life it would be completely impractical unless said clones had some VERY impressive superpowers. And as OL pointed out, the existing options just aren't particularly interesting.
 
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=Time is cyclical and alternates between ages of science and ages of magic, so OL trying to spread magic might cause the current Age of SCIENCE!!! to prematurely collapse. Ideally, the current age of science wouldn't end until after humanity had colonized several worlds, at which point they'd collapse into pre-industrial feudalism, forget their true history, embrace sorcery, and millennia later rediscover their long-lost 'cousins' who had been living on other planets.
o_O:wtf: it's not a binary, 'Either or' equation. By that logic, the current tech emphasis should make magic, including that of Nabu, The Zataras, Klarion, and Circe, completely ineffective.
 
It's a fair bit easier in YJ because they have methods of fast growing them
Fast-growing a clone, now there's a moral trick. You've done it the harm of desynching its mental and biological ages, robbing it of years of life expectancy, perhaps even depriving it of education unless it can fast learn, raising it in isolation if you don't grow it in a simulation, and leaving it to face emerging from the lie of the simulation it's been raised in all its life to step out of the matrix.
 
Point, but how do we know Fate was telling the truth and not just saying that to placate the League?
He wasn't talking about Giovanni, he was talking about how he had become one with Aqualad, and thus could vouch for his good intentions and competence.
That is very far from what we were shown. "I'm just an old coat Fate puts on."?
A coat Fate puts on, not Nabu. Fate isn't the host, but it's not purely Nabu either. He's almost certainly more Nabu than the host on account of Nabu being ridiculously more experienced and knowledgeable than any host he could get, but the host still gets a (mostly subconscious) vote.

We were shown Fate getting weirdly passionate about Zatanna's superhero career. I doubt Nabu by himself would have cared.
And Wallace certainly didn't merge with anything. Nabu didn't get super speed and Wallace was reduced to spectator status.
Wally was not a normal host. Also, Fate could have been concerned about how super speed would interact with his magic, or didn't think the middle of a fight was a good time to try experimenting with combining two completely different fighting styles.
 
Fast-growing a clone, now there's a moral trick. You've done it the harm of desynching its mental and biological ages, robbing it of years of life expectancy, perhaps even depriving it of education unless it can fast learn, raising it in isolation if you don't grow it in a simulation, and leaving it to face emerging from the lie of the simulation it's been raised in all its life to step out of the matrix.

Yeah, good point. I was just thinking about it from a practical standpoint. :o
 
Didn't you learn the importance of not bringing your own moral dogma as the only absolute the first time you came to this thread?

It works in context. rkyuen did not understand why someone would find cloning morally repugnant, and I told him that it could be considered interfering with God's work. If talking about my religion openly bothers you, that's your problem.
 
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