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There being a reason for you to do it doesn't mean any of us want it waved in our faces.

Please understand, I'm not trying to be rude, but plenty of people have had religion forced onto them, and this is a sci-fi forum (among a few other things)

It's likely viewed as...invasive when religious people take it upon themselves to "educate" while others are here for entertainment.

The reason I do is because I would like my voice to be heard. In an increasingly secular society such as the one we live in, it is become shameful to talk about religious beliefs openly, especially when it goes against media buzzwords.

The second is to counter any false notions that others have about Catholicism. Mainly that they pick on and bully everyone who disagrees with them.

That kind of view point is nothing like utilitarism.

Please excuse my ignorance of this complex issue.
 
Nabu is insane by normal human standards the same way Paul is insane by normal human standards, the difference between them is that while Paul achieved avarice Enlightenment and gained the Heart of Ophidian as his soul, Nabu got order enlightenment and then went on to ascend to being a Lord of Order, further stripping himself of the none-orderly parts of his personality. Crazy doesn't mean chaotic, it means having a mental state sufficiently different then what is normal for a species and even if you judge Nabu by Cillian standards he would probably still come across as being heavily warped from the norm do to so thoroughly embracing the principles of capital O Order.
Yeah, that's part of what I was getting at in that while human standards don't really apply, the way he thinks is going to seem wacky to us.
 
The reason I do is because I would like my voice to be heard. In an increasingly secular society such as the one we live in, it is become shameful to talk about religious beliefs openly, especially when it goes against media buzzwords.

I think you're missing the point.

You might want your voice to be heard, and that's fine. That's something you want and it's okay.

Lots of people don't want to hear your voice talking about religion. I'm sorry to be blunt, because I don't think you have bad intentions, but we're not here to hear your voice on religion. We're here to discuss a fanfiction.

Occasionally, that fanfiction will delve into religious topics, and maybe even Catholicism, and your knowledge will let you contribute to that discussion...but when it comes to other things, especially things like morals, a lot of people aren't going to want to hear it through a filter of "The Bible" or "God" or "Religion".

The fact of the matter is, this is a secular (as in, non-religious, not atheist) board. All religion is treated equal, and just like I'm sure you don't want me going "All forms if Christianity are wrong. Look at some of the insane shit in The Bible.", lots of people don't want to be questioned on religious grounds.

Please try to keep that in mind, especially when you try to argue morals in the thread, and I think everyone will react to you better.
 
The reason I do is because I would like my voice to be heard. In an increasingly secular society such as the one we live in, it is become shameful to talk about religious beliefs openly, especially when it goes against media buzzwords.
Meh it's mostly on the internet. Sites like this one are more obvious because most users don't want to talk about topics that easily devolve in flame wars, it's hardly limited to religion. Also people on sites like SV and SB tend to be more easily triggered 'à la Tumblr' by specific topics and will react vehemently to any perceived offense regardless of if it was meant to be offensive or not.
Please excuse my ignorance of this complex issue.
Yeah utilitarism is more about actions being judged by if they serve the greater good (the majority) or not. Now what the greater good is is very vague, but it tends to boil down to things like 'would you sacrifice 1 to save 10' and the utilitaristic answer being yes.
 
Please try to keep that in mind, especially when you try to argue morals in the thread, and I think everyone will react to you better.

As one of those darn religious folk, I agree. For example, instead of "murder is bad because ten commandments" try "murder is bad because people die". It turns out people usually agree with that one. Usually. *stares pointedly at a few of the regular posters*

Also, on topic, I'm not too sure about Paul's handling of all this.

He's relying too much on people not picking up subtext, and if they do, assuming that they're reasonable people. I know we have Word of Zoat on the subject, ie: no one really has noticed, but my experience is most people frown plots against members of their organization, and tend to react emotionally instead of logically, even if they themselves don't like the person. Also, that last line was a bit heavy on the 'take that'.
 
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As one of those darn religious folk, I agree. For example, instead of "murder is bad because ten commandments" try "murder is bad because people die". It turns out people usually agree with that one. Usually. *stares pointedly at a few of the regular posters*
Also, it turns out murder gets you banned from the forums. There was a ruling. Kind of. It was mostly confusion as to why it came up, though.
 
Therefore, it's OK to murder Vandal Savage because he won't die. Plus, it's Vandal Savage.
Well, I mean, you have me there. It's really more like... enthusiastic chloroforming in his case.

Also, it turns out murder gets you banned from the forums. There was a ruling. Kind of. It was mostly confusion as to why it came up, though.

Well if it gets you banned, then that's the end of that argument.

Murder. At least as bad as trolling.
 
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As one of those darn religious folk, I agree. For example, instead of "murder is bad because ten commandments" try "murder is bad because people die". It turns out people usually agree with that one.
Ooh, to tie this whole thing back into the story, think of it like the standard orange lantern diplomacy tactic: work out what they want, and figure out how to make them want what you want. So don't try to justify something in terms of your own moral system, because most people won't care, like they won't care what you want. Justify it in terms of their moral system, or in the case of a group in sufficiently broad terms that most people would agree. Jamie wouldn't care that some people consider murder wrong, but she probably doesn't like having to clean up all the blood.

This argument could save you one day. Remember it.
 
I think you're missing the point.

You might want your voice to be heard, and that's fine. That's something you want and it's okay.

Lots of people don't want to hear your voice talking about religion. I'm sorry to be blunt, because I don't think you have bad intentions, but we're not here to hear your voice on religion. We're here to discuss a fanfiction.

Occasionally, that fanfiction will delve into religious topics, and maybe even Catholicism, and your knowledge will let you contribute to that discussion...but when it comes to other things, especially things like morals, a lot of people aren't going to want to hear it through a filter of "The Bible" or "God" or "Religion".

The fact of the matter is, this is a secular (as in, non-religious, not atheist) board. All religion is treated equal, and just like I'm sure you don't want me going "All forms if Christianity are wrong. Look at some of the insane shit in The Bible.", lots of people don't want to be questioned on religious grounds.

Please try to keep that in mind, especially when you try to argue morals in the thread, and I think everyone will react to you better.

I am mindful of the beliefs of others, but if they go around comparing Christianity to the Flat Earth Society or calling the Almighty Creator of the Universe the imaginary friend of a sexist old men, then I kind of get annoyed. That said, jokes about Jumped up Elementals and Orange Snakes are appreciated, because it is funny and I am secure enough in my beliefs to take a joke, provided it is in good tastes.

What I wanted to say about Kal-El and his reasons for not liking cloning... Clark Kent, in most interpretations, was raised by a WASP family living out in a rural area, so he might have some theistic reasons to oppose creating life that way. Which would actually be an interesting conflict with his heritage, as Kryptonians were all for mass cloning.

Yeah utilitarism is more about actions being judged by if they serve the greater good (the majority) or not. Now what the greater good is is very vague, but it tends to boil down to things like 'would you sacrifice 1 to save 10' and the utilitaristic answer being yes.

I do have personal problems with how utilitarianism works when applied to morality, if you wonder why I snarked about it. But you are probably not interested in the debate that would ensue.
 
He's relying too much on people not picking up subtext, and if they do, assuming that they're reasonable people. I know we have Word of Zoat on the subject, ie: no one really has noticed, but my experience is most people frown plots against members of their organization, and tend to react emotionally instead of logically, even if they themselves don't like the person. Also, that last line was a bit heavy on the 'take that'.
I think that line about nobody having really noticed that Paul dislikes Nabu was kind of a 'nobody really noticed it before.' And that'd make sense, because most of these people he's barely interacted with, and not when Nabu was involved, and he's usually pretty good about keeping his dislike out of things because there's more important stuff to be doing. Aside from Wonder Woman, I'm guessing only Batman would've really noticed as more then just a general 'huh, OL doesn't seem to like Nabu much.'

Now? Now I'm guessing they've probably picked up on it. At the least they'll be able to tell he's not exactly Nabu's biggest fan, even if they don't realize he actively dislikes him, and probably none of them will realize he outright hates him now. Well, Batman might. He's probably got an idea how much Paul would have to dislike someone to start trying to actively anger them.
 
I want to see Batman drop on one night and try to convince OL not to fuck with Nabu.
Not order, just listen to the plan, and try to convince. He'll likely stay near neutral if not outright help .

Remember. Batman has plans to take down the entire league.
Therefore , he's studied Nabu, and has something that can do it.
Or someone.

He has explicitly stated that one reason he has these plans, is in case of mind control.

Nabu has crossed the line. Either Batman is trying the soft sell/ long game, or Batman is doing wait and see.
He doesn't give up.
 
Now? Now I'm guessing they've probably picked up on it. At the least they'll be able to tell he's not exactly Nabu's biggest fan, even if they don't realize he actively dislikes him, and probably none of them will realize he outright hates him now. Well, Batman might. He's probably got an idea how much Paul would have to dislike someone to start trying to actively anger them.
Those who already had some insight on the relationship between the two might figure that out, but for most of them what they probably just saw was two superheroes with egos butting heads. Paul would have looked slightly unprofessional and Nabu having his usual peculiarities that would have a few of them cringe a little. But you'd really need to reach or have a deep understanding of Paul for any of them to even guess that he was planning to kill Nabu from an outsider perspective.
 
From a certain perspective making it seem that Nabu is petty, emotional or short sided especially given his whole "Lord of Order" bit plays well into OL's plans. Especially the part where he offered an alternative body to Nabu.

I'm sure some people are trying to justify what Nabu did, but if he appears selfish, callous and short sighted...well just the uncertainty might have them stay uninvolved, something Paul really needs. He can take Nabu. Taking them and the rest of the league...well a favorable interpretation is this adds another constraint and takes away another Degree of Freedom lowering his odds of success.

Fighting with kidgloves with high level heros and trying to get rid of Nabu may be too much. Better for Paul if no one in the League but Nabu fights him.
 
Triumph of the Will (part 8)
9th April
17:27 GMT +1


I finish my walk around the statue then float upwards to try seeing it from an elevated position. Canis Minor must have come back at some point to finish it. I'm not usually one for art, but this… If it wasn't for all the horse poo it would be really nice.

Oh that's right. I'm an Orange Lantern.

One of the horses is scratching an itchy flank against the stone, and it snorts and takes a couple of steps away as the orange light takes hold of the excrement and spreads it out across the nearby grass. The Watchtower doesn't have flies, but the garden has a healthy worm population and the climate control systems make it rain every so often. When this place was converted for League use they brought in just enough plant and animal life to keep the oxygen flowing but no one was really interested in creating an ecosystem. I don't think anyone even takes honey from the bee hives.

"Good, isn't it?" I look around as Superman flies down to hover a little way from me. "We offered to take it down to Earth, but Canis Minor said that it belonged up here."

"The point was creation and commemoration, not owning. Why put it somewhere other than where it should be?" I glance back up at the window to the meeting room. "Things going well up there, or..?"

"We're taking a short break. It's.. not easy being told everything you're doing wrong."

"Everyone on the Justice League has done so much for their fellow Earthlings already." That gets a small smile. "I'm not trying to.. do the League down. You're all amazing; what you volunteer to do is amazing. I'm just trying to… Help you do more. And, y'know, keep you alive while you do it."

"I know." He nods. "Do you have time to make that radiation shield for me now, or should I come back later?"

"Now's fine, sir. On the..? Belt buckle?"

"It's that small?"

"The version I gave Kon is. Really, it's a trade off in power and battery life, but since Kryptonite radiation is actually not.. very strong, and you won't be using it all the time, small works fine." I hold up my left hand and an orange strobe plays over his belt. "If you actually wanted to go to the Rao system or something you'd want something a little heavier. Sir, I… Why do you-?"

"Why do I have a belt?" He chuckles. "I remember what you and the Ophidian did to my trunks-."

"I'm really sorry about that, sir."

"I've had worse critics before." The light playing over his belt cuts out. The 'buckle' unit has about twice the volume it did before, but the change isn't really that noticeable. "I realise my costume isn't exactly 'cutting edge'-."

"No, no, the costume's fine, sir. Solid colour, clearly visible logo. I don't really like capes, but you pull it off. The.. pants…" I hold my hands out to the side, palms up.

"It was originally supposed to be a.. circus strong man sort of thing. The rest got added because I couldn't fly around in just my trunks."

"And the belt?"

"When I started out, they did sometimes get… Pulled down. Because of how fast I was flying." I look away, nodding. "Was that your honest assessment of what would happen if the League faced a group of warships?"

"That was the result of a lot of simulations. The exact result depends on your assumptions about what they know, how they respond. Broadly, though? Yes."

"I suppose we've been lucky so far."

"This is a peaceful region. The chance of being attacked isn't all that high. The only real local power that might threaten Earth in that way is the Black Circle, but they're criminals and raiders, not a navy. Their fleet assets aren't often used for attacking places that can fight back."

"So we don't need to arm up just yet. You had me worried for a minute there."

"Statistically… No. It probably isn't necessary. It would help in some ways, hinder in others…" I shrug. "It's a path you could take."

Ring, anyone else around?

I get a clear impression of the Watchtower, and the locations of everyone on board. Looks like Nabu did leave.

"Sir, there was something else I wanted to talk to you about."

"Oh? What is it?"

"You may want to sit down."

He looks at me curiously for a moment. "I prefer to take my bad news straight."

"It's not bad news sir, but alright. I was always a bit sceptical of the idea that starfaring species could have been rendered near-extinct by a single disaster-."

He looks down. "They can if they isolate themselves on their homeworld."

"Right, but everyone? So… After I got Lantern Stewart's ring I had a look through the database. See if I could track down any Kryptonians who might have been elsewhere."

His face stills as he looks at me in shock. "You found someone?"

Tracking down a single planet in a galaxy when you have no real idea where it is isn't very easy. I was rather lucky finding a specific reference to a 'Dax-Am' in the Corps' records on Kryptonian society itself. Then I tried comparing the faces of his followers to those on other humanoid inhabited worlds. That got me nothing. Looking for humanoid inhabited worlds orbiting a red giant narrowed it down a bit, looking for one colonised rather than indigenously inhabited narrowed it further, then it was a matter of looking at the records and finding the best fit.

"I found a colony. It's on the planet Daxam in Space Sector one seven six zero. The original colonists appear to have been.. Kryptonian Amish, effectively. According to Green Lantern Corps records-."

"What?!" His eyes widen. "That was on John's ring? Why didn't he tell me?"

"The Green Lantern Corps missed them because they've.. pretty much abandoned Kryptonian culture as it was then. Since Daxam orbits a red giant they don't have any of the signature Kryptonian superpowers… And they retained the Kryptonian habit of isolating themselves and doubled down on the xenophobia. The local Lantern just had time to confirm that there was a settlement before they opened fire and chased her off. If I didn't know exactly what I was looking for I wouldn't have been able to find it."

He nods, his eyes shifting to the ground below us as he gets his thoughts in order. "Sector one seven six zero. Where is that?" I wave my right hand and create a galaxy map, our position and Daxam's clearly marked. Quite a long way. "Ah."

"I can give you a lift in three months. Or you could probably arm twist Lantern Tomar-Re into giving you one now." He nods. "I should warn you, they're probably not going to be friendlier to an outsider just because he happens to be from the same species as them."

"I.. better brush up on my Kryptonese." He smiles at me. "Shame you couldn't find someone closer." His smile disappears. "You found someone closer?!"

"Um." Stupid… Super senses. "Ssssort of?"

"On Earth? Where?"

"Thing is, sir… They… Know you're here. I mean, you're not exactly subtle, you wear the sigil of House El on your chest..."

"Why is that a problem?"

"The individual in question was a member of the Kryptonian navy who went AWOL when the Science Council took over. While Jor-El was opposed to isolationism, House El as a whole was in favour of it and several members of the Science Council-."

"And they blame me for that?" He shakes his head in disbelief. "Let me talk to them."

"I.. rather promised that I wouldn't, sir. They were… Percussively emphatic about not wanting anything to do with you." The muscles around his jaw tighten. "I wouldn't tell them that you're Clark Kent; it's hardly fair to expect me to spill their secrets."

"Maybe not. But I certainly didn't promise that I wouldn't look-."

And then the alarms start blaring.
 
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To be fair, learning his fans were confused about the staff's position on murder must have been troubling. Maybe he's coming to grips?

EDIT: Or not.
 
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