I don't want to take action that piss off the Khem either.
Or rather, we take action that has benefit for us accept the cost of Khem being pissed at us as the cost of business.
Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)
I don't want to take action that piss off the Khem either.
Or rather, we take action that has benefit for us accept the cost of Khem being pissed at us as the cost of business.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
This was only because we were extremely careful with our actions and were lucky as well.
Had the plan I originally prefered won, we would only have had 1 authority left.
Had our spy hunt not ended last turn we would be 1 influence short.
As it is now, we may thread the needle, and even this only if the war goes reasonably well and we do not lose further influence.
If you start intentionally pissing them off for no reason (selling guns to their enemies, when we don't even need the money)... then no, they won't be our future friends.
Khem weren't our rivals at first, in fact starting with 6/10 opinion. We acted against their interests, and now we are rivals. Act enough for their interests, show that we're in their corner in the long-term, and they'll drop the rivalry.
(Some of that action may have been unavoidable, like donating food to the Kus. The act of selling bombards to their enemies, on the other hand, is eminently avoidable, and everyone knows it.)
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean, I do want to take actions that upset Khem when the war is over because there are some that benefit us and the Khem have made it clear that we are going to be enemies. Rather than pretending that some sort of friendship or alliance is still on the table, we could act like we are rivals and do things that benefit us even if they upset the Khem.
It is one thing to avoid actions that benefit us, but also make us enemies. It is another thing to avoid taking actions benefit us at the expense of our enemies in a futile attempt to appease said enemies.
This.
We do our thing, try not to piss people off on purpose, but if it happens - it happens.
For now we need to finish reuniting the Empire and then getting a proper fleet back.
"Simple throwing up of hands", "oh well, it happens" is not good international relations.
The fact is, our rivalry to Khem was avoidable. We knew beforehand that selling food to Kus went against their interests; we could have thrown them a bone (in fact, several plans tried to do so).
(Or, earlier, if we had actually committed to a side during the Khem civil war, we would have started with higher Opinion.)
A Sacred Warding, Khemetri would almost certainly have avoided the rivalry. Even a Cholera cure might have worked, though with less likelihood. Anything that said: okay, we understand that we have to go against your interests, but we're on your side here.
We have to anticipate these things and reach out with compromises that account for them, not treat Khem like they don't exist until it's already too late.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Khem are our rivals now and you need to acknowledge that. It was unfortunately unavoidable due to how the Kus famine went and how we are their biggest rival for King of the Hill. We have tried to avoid upsetting then in the past and look where it has gotten us. Time to acknowledge reality and not worry about upsetting our enemies out of some futile attempt to befriend them.
Going against the interests of our own people to needlessly appease our enemies in the hopes they will start being our friends is something I am going to oppose. I am not going to harm the Ymaryn for the sake of the Khem if it can be avoided and I am going to treat the Khem like they are our rival because they are our rival and they are acting like it. They are not our friends and they have shown no interest of being our friends while they are our rivals and they are acting like it.
So yes, I am going to support against the Khem after the war because once the Black Sheep and Western Wall are dealt, they are going to our biggest threat to our people and they have shown that they are more than willing to be a threat to our people. Because of this, I am going to take action to handle that threat to our people.
Maybe this rivalry was avoidable, maybe it wasn't. But it exists now and we need to acknowledge that fact instead of acting like they are some neutral party to be wooed into friendship or alliance.
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There is another huge thing that we need to consider. (For the record, I believe that we should knuckle under)
When asked about war weariness, Aranfan notes that "not even national revaunchism" can keep a war going indefinitely.
There likely will be severe repercussions in terms of war weariness, since revaunchism will be so gravely weakened.
We may be trying to make sure it disappears at the end of the wars, but it really does serve a valid purpose. Our people are ok with the country being on fire for the war primarily because of the strong revaunchist sentiment.
When asked about war weariness, Aranfan notes that "not even national revaunchism" can keep a war going indefinitely.
There likely will be severe repercussions in terms of war weariness, since revaunchism will be so gravely weakened.
We may be trying to make sure it disappears at the end of the wars, but it really does serve a valid purpose. Our people are ok with the country being on fire for the war primarily because of the strong revaunchist sentiment.
But there are reasons (good ones) for taking actions that piss off Khem. They are the ones who picked us as a rival.
Also, in the longer term, we will really benefit if there is a Suez canal controlled by, well, us, or by a power that is such a close military ally it may as well be a province but that doesn't seem to be on the table anytime soon. And we will benefit from the ports of the Levant being friendly and connected to the trade routes across Txolla and Thunder Plateau.
fasquardon
And humiliation, showed by the -20 prestige, hence the impact on influence and authority...
It is just in the grand scheme of things, the only hard cost is purely token to try and avoid fighting our million strong army.
No time to build up navies or make defensive alliances. Namar's dad is still alive and advising so we can expect he's able to handle our response for at least a couple of years cos that guy's competent at big wars. The token tribute is a clever move. I think we have to accept. Tempting to accept then abdicate!
What do you think their demands would have been like with lower opinion?
It's safe to say that, with 1/10 opinion, they would've just declared war (or made an ultimatum so punishing it amounts to the same). Right now, they see us almost neutrally, and in fact, having positively acknowledged them to make up (in part) for their losses in Kus.
If we showed--instead--we didn't give a shit, would they not try to extract what concessions from us while they could? "There's no future with these people" (rather like Oshha is treating it now), "might as well take what we can".
And finally, if we outright sold guns to their enemies in circumstances where it was completely avoidable...
I suspect we'd get an even higher opinion loss. This time, there's no excuse; it's literally just to piss them off. And, narratively, we'd have treated them as enemies. The next war, they do the same.
...
...
So that's with lower opinion. With higher opinion...
- Khem could have asked to contribute to our reclamation, and be given an outsized role in the press. They would have at least contributed their Navy (honestly helpful for us), and probably some troops that we play up in the press releases "The Khemetri Expedition force", "The Joint Force" or whatever.
(This isn't exactly "military coordination" from being an ally, more like semi-opportunistic "this is going to happen, might as well be a part of it and share in the glory".) - Khem could have asked for development of Infrastructure in lieu of Prestige. (Sacred Warding definitely--but in this counterfactual world we probably already gave it to them to raise their opinion that high.)
- Khem could have demanded a less punishing acknowledgment of joint supremecy. Closer relations would probably have them see our eventual overtaking them as somewhat inevitable, so this is just to paper over the short-term while other concessions are used to prepare for the long term. (This one is more speculative, and I think the first is more likely.)
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Or he judged that if he waited until we actually finished the Black Sheep he'd risk our response being half a million men marching south.
I want to try to repair our relations with the Khemtry for no other reason than I want to see if we can win them into at least a competitive friendship. They represent a lot of money and good relations could be very profitable.
We don't need to do anything like conquest. We have tons of land to settle if we for some reason need space.
So for that reason we should play nice. War won't end anything.
We don't need to do anything like conquest. We have tons of land to settle if we for some reason need space.
So for that reason we should play nice. War won't end anything.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Most likely the same in my opinion. Opinion isn't the only or even the greatest factor in international relations. I think the Khem are being so lenient not because they how much they like us, but because they are being wary of our Mass Levy and seeking a way to get what they want without having to risk fighting it.
They have already done this in this war.
Frankly, I am willing to agree to disagree. You made it clear what you think we should do about the Khem and I feel I have made clear that I am going to oppose any of your plan that have us harming our own people for appease the Khem. We might as well wait until the next turn when this debate will be relevant instead of getting into fights now about it when we aren't making any decisions in regards to it.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
No. Namar is not a fool. He can see that you are winning, that you are about to pass him in prestiege, and that you might be able to take him if you get the black sheep to back down but not if your distracted by both them and Western Wall. He is striking while the iron is hot.
What this reminds me of is the Austro-Prussian war of 1866 prior to the Franco-Prussian war of 1870. Khem(France) wants to make sure we don't become a threat that can rival it so is trying to frustrate us by using the humiliation or casus belli to attack. The Ymaryn(Prussia) are trying to reunify to become a bigger player and harder target that isn't vulnerable like Prussia had the other duchies of the HRE join its confederations. The other Ymaryn factions/successor states are trying to hold onto independence or beat us like Austria tried to frustrate Prussia by controlling the German duchies. So we are in the position of playing nice with the Khem because they can shank us in the back while we're busy fighting the other Ymaryn factions and isolating the Highlanders. Then when we've stomped the other successors into the ground and reunified with them(like the Prussians did to Austria, beating them and isolating them to get the German duchies to join their confederation). We can build up, sort out internal issues and bring our navy up to the standard needed to fight the Khem.
We already played the long game taking the horrible peace deal with Not!Greece. Continue the path we started until we reach the old borders and can actually act like the big shot we used to be in PoC 1.
[X] Submit (20 Prestige transferred to KMT, -.2 Treasury, -4 Influence, -1 Authority, Revaunchists gravely weakened, personal action unavailable next turn)
We already played the long game taking the horrible peace deal with Not!Greece. Continue the path we started until we reach the old borders and can actually act like the big shot we used to be in PoC 1.
[X] Submit (20 Prestige transferred to KMT, -.2 Treasury, -4 Influence, -1 Authority, Revaunchists gravely weakened, personal action unavailable next turn)
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[X] Submit (20 Prestige transferred to KMT, -.2 Treasury, -4 Influence, -1 Authority, Revaunchists gravely weakened, personal action unavailable next turn)
A Khem that genuinely wants to screw us over (Opinion 1-2) would have attacked/blockaded us, back when we had 66 Prestige, a four-front war, and a mostly-intact Black Sheep.
A five-front war--with most of our troops committed to the Black Sheep--would've outright caused a collapse. It doesn't take military genius to suspect that.
This is a Khem who is mostly ambivalent about us (but saw that we were trying to make some amends). They don't want to actually screw us over--even now, they could have asked for much more; and back then, absolutely--but finally couldn't avoid action when our Prestige gain became inevitable.
International relations aren't about "who started it first" (especially while the rivalry is mild enough not to have--yet--descended into enmity), but about keeping strategically important nations as happy as is possible. Treat them like they don't exist, and they break away and rival you when you go too far against their interests--but on the other hand, make continued considerations, and they'll be confident in your long-term goodwill and drop the rivalry. It's our choice, and we are choosing poorly.
By the time the Suez canal comes around, this disagreement will be literally ancient history.The Khem aren't going to become our ally "anytime soon", but we have around 500 years to make it happen.
And, I mean, what's the alternative. We conquer all the way to the not!Suez? Either that leaves us even more exposed, or we conquer the peninsula (which Aranfan's already warned us about).
A Khem that genuinely wants to screw us over (Opinion 1-2) would have attacked/blockaded us, back when we had 66 Prestige, a four-front war, and a mostly-intact Black Sheep.
A five-front war--with most of our troops committed to the Black Sheep--would've outright caused a collapse. It doesn't take military genius to suspect that.
This is a Khem who is mostly ambivalent about us (but saw that we were trying to make some amends). They don't want to actually screw us over--even now, they could have asked for much more; and back then, absolutely--but finally couldn't avoid action when our Prestige gain became inevitable.
International relations aren't about "who started it first" (especially while the rivalry is mild enough not to have--yet--descended into enmity), but about keeping strategically important nations as happy as is possible. Treat them like they don't exist, and they break away and rival you when you go too far against their interests--but on the other hand, make continued considerations, and they'll be confident in your long-term goodwill and drop the rivalry. It's our choice, and we are choosing poorly.
By the time the Suez canal comes around, this disagreement will be literally ancient history.The Khem aren't going to become our ally "anytime soon", but we have around 500 years to make it happen.
And, I mean, what's the alternative. We conquer all the way to the not!Suez? Either that leaves us even more exposed, or we conquer the peninsula (which Aranfan's already warned us about).
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In other words, well, EXACTLY what we were thinking, just different perspective. After all, we wanted to wrap up the fight with black sheep to free up the troops needed to face the Khem forces. Seeing this and how close we are getting to do so, well, he acted while we would be hard pressed to field enough to counter his forces, because the same reasons we wanted to keep prestige down while trying to finish that front.
