Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)

[Oshha]

@Aranfan What is half exile? Like, full exile is exile, I don't understand how you do that halfway.

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Half-exile is the form of punishment that the Ymaryn used in PoC. Rather than just exiling people from the tribe, we just turned them into social outcasts and made them do undesirable work. It sort of become pseudo-slavery over time until it got pointed out that we were basically treating half-exiles like slaves so we started paying them. It is supposed to be a temporary punishment, but in practice, it varies from place to place to the point in some places you can have entire family lines of half-exiles due to class oppression.

 

[noncannon]

The problem is that all of the nobility who actually defected to the Khan is the entirety of Tinshore's nobility. If we want to punish the traitors, we do have to uproot all of the nobility and to be clear here, they did do the crime that they are accused of.

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There are usually political considerations in the punishment of a polity's leadership. It should be clear what those are here, with our patricians throwing a hissy fit and the resulting loss of influence. These political considerations may, indeed, lead to some guilty people not ending up punished, or completely punished.

That's not the issue. The issue is that the current choice is essentially between "surrender totally to the politics" and "ignore politics in its entirety", when there are obvious half-measures.

(All this is assuming, by the way, that your claim that all of them defected to the Khan is substantively true. There are arguments that when the leader defects, the non-immediate subordinates may be less culpable--or, at the very least, may find it far less practical to act otherwise. You don't punish a file clerk for a Governor's mistake, etc.)

 

[Kiba]

June 1603

The Civilized People of the West is very impressive as expected. There is a lot to admire here, dark rumors aside. I wish I could regal tales of what wonder I have seen there, but there is much else to report.

There were some very directed questioning from their bureaucrats(some are even women!) about the Central Empire willingness to buy more bombards. I told them that we already have plenty of bombards as we invented them.

I expected there to be more hurdle, to my surprise, I was given a private visit. Despite my attempt to remain all formal and such, the Emperor of the West gave me a very warm welcome, and I was allowed to ask some questions. He even gave me a basic overview of the current political situation.

Their People had confronted the Great Khan and done something that nobody else did! Although they didn't see the result of their mighty defense, but they are the people who broke the back of the Great Khan. Of course, they were terribly wounded and shattered into competing states, but the previous Emperor easily conquered one states after another, and I arrived just in time to hear of the current Emperor's greatest conquest. They somehow managed to corral and convinced the nobility of "Tinshore?" to come back? I am not sure if it translated correctly. I am aware of the idea of Tin, the metal, but a shore? Much to figure out later.

Winning a conquest without a fight was astonishing. What was even more astonishing is that the Emperor's punishment for these traitorous nobles...was a lifetime of atonement doing nasty work flipping manure? I am not quite sure I understand it, but it seemed absolutely lenient.

When I asked why the emperor didn't simply execute their whole families, I caused offense without meaning it. the Emperor was about to throw me out for daring to suggest such a thing until my Kus translator deftly claimed that it was all a mistranslation. Thanks the heaven!

When I left after the emperor patiently and personally answered more questions, the more I became confused. They don't understand what a dynasty was. Or maybe they do? Apparently, the whole People of the West came together to choose the next person who would be emperor. Somewhat confusingly, this is the heir, but how could they be the heir if they are not related by blood? How did this not devolve into constant civil war with each passing generation?

Maybe I understood the questions wrong, but my translator was somewhat befuddled as well.

October 1603

I came to realize that the dark rumors are true. If only I wasn't so dismissive of my subordinates! They did horrible things to the elderly. Those who are very old are given a blood sacrifice under the pretense of mercy!

There is a Great Evil lurking among the Western People that had managed to convince them that they were their priests and shall be respected.

Unfortunately, I cannot risk my life to tell them of this truth, for as I have a greater duty to report to the Emperor.

 

[Oshha]

(All this is assuming, by the way, that your claim that all of them defected to the Khan is substantively true. There are arguments that when the leader defects, the non-immediate subordinates may be less culpable--or, at the very least, may find it far less practical to act otherwise. You don't punish a file clerk for a Governor's mistake, etc.)

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All of the nobility went along with the rebellion because they thought the Old Ymaryn Empire was doomed and saw to survive the Great Khan by betraying the Ymaryn Empire and throwing their lot in with him. All of the surviving nobility at least. If any of the nobility did object or refuse to go along with it, then the loyalist nobility would have been removed by the rebel nobility. Whether they actively rebelled or just passive went along with the rebellion, they are guilty of betraying the Ymaryn Empire.

Or at least that what I consider the most likely case for all of Tinshore's nobility being guilty for rebelling according to Aranfan. If you have a problem with the idea of Tinshore's nobility all being guilty, take it up with the QM not me. I am just going by what the QM has told us to be the case.

 

[Sivantic]

I'd love to hear the point of the question: that only ideological extreme options are possible, and practical intermediate options not? That only entire classes of people may be punished, rather than those who are most culpable?

Neither does the third option "have your cake", so to speak. The commoners wouldn't be all that happy about it, compared to the existing option. The patricians would throw hissy fits. It doesn't really satisfy anyone that well; but it would reduce the more severe backlash from either side.

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It is attempting to punish without punishing. To reap the benefits of keeping their loyalty while still giving the impression that the guilty party was punished.

There are usually political considerations in the punishment of a polity's leadership. It should be clear what those are here, with our patricians throwing a hissy fit and the resulting loss of influence. These political considerations may, indeed, lead to some guilty people not ending up punished, or completely punished.

That's not the issue. The issue is that the current choice is essentially between "surrender totally to the politics" and "ignore politics in its entirety", when there are obvious half-measures.

(All this is assuming, by the way, that your claim that all of them defected to the Khan is substantively true. There are arguments that when the leader defects, the non-immediate subordinates may be less culpable--or, at the very least, may find it far less practical to act otherwise. You don't punish a file clerk for a Governor's mistake, etc.)

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What, you think the loyalists sat quietly while their peers turned on Ymaryn?

Anyone that remained loyal was likely exiled, pushed into half-exile, or executed.

The nobility that we see are the guilty party of treason. We either punish them as treason demands or we let them live.

 

[Godwinson]

It also should be said that the notion that the tax punishment is ideologically driven is blatantly dishonest. It's the standard and expected punishment, with the idea of divesting the nobles wholesale being brought forward because the system is so venal that the standard punishment would fall entirely on those who weren't part of the decision to defect.

 

[noncannon]

@Oshha Like I said, even conceding that entire point, the issue is of political considerations and the seemingly strange dichotomy between "surrender to politics" and "don't care about politics at all" when there are clear compromise measures such as "punish the most visible leadership".

It is attempting to punish without punishing. To reap the benefits of keeping their loyalty while still giving the impression that the guilty party was punished.

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You're not wrong.* The main (if not entire) rationale for the half-measure is the political considerations.

The other possible rationale is that, contrary to what you assert, the entire "party" might not be guilty... or, at the very least, not equally guilty, most probably enough so to overlook for said political considerations.

*Edit: I'd say it's an attempt at punishing less rather than completely "without punishing", but that's by-the-by.

It also should be said that the notion that the tax punishment is ideologically driven is blatantly dishonest.

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It's driven by the patricians' ideology to support their own for the sake of precedent.

However, let's not get into quibbles on what, exactly, the words "ideologically driven" mean.

 

[065tdsa]

The fact that our nobility seems to have a fully developed class consciousness, instead of hating each other only slightly less than they hate everybody else, is the truly baffling part in all this. By any normal criteria, our Core nobles should hate the Tinshore nobles who abandoned them to die, but apparently not.

Even if they didn't hate them they should want them gone so they could take their lands and wealth sources for their own families, but apparently not.

 

[Sivantic]

The other possible rationale is that, contrary to what you assert, the entire "party" might not be guilty... or, at the very least, not equally guilty, some possibly enough to overlook for said political considerations.

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Ymaryn was in a fight for its life. There was no guarantee that it would survive this war. A silent rebellion would do nothing at that point, there was no time to play double agent. They either help, or do nothing. They turned their back on us.

They are all guilty

 

[Kiba]

The fact that our nobility seems to have a fully developed class consciousness, instead of hating each other only slightly less than they hate everybody else, is the truly baffling part in all this.

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They have a blind hatred for traitors. So they lumped the commoners with the nobility. The fact that taxes hurt the commoners the most is par the course, even if they theoretically taxed at the same rate. Higher taxes on the margin of society is the difference between starvation and dying of malnutrition, or making it to the next winter.

 

[065tdsa]

They have a blind hatred for traitors. So they lumped the commoners with the nobility. The fact that taxes hurt the commoners the most is par the course, even if they theoretically taxed at the same rate.

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Problem is that doesn't make sense. Our nobles aren't idiots, they know taxes hurt only the commoners, who didn't actually make any decisions, and leave the actual traitors unscathed. Taxes also don't allow our nobles a chance to steal the wealth of the traitor nobles for themselves, which is something of perpetual interest to the upper classes in most nations.

The fact that they oppose a real punishment (that would also happen to benefit them directly) against the people who left them to die can only be explained by the Ymaryn nobility's perpetual penchant to do whatever is most inconvenient to us - which to be fair is PoC canon.

 

[noncannon]

The fact that our nobility seems to have a fully developed class consciousness, instead of hating each other only slightly less than they hate everybody else, is the truly baffling part in all this. By any normal criteria, our Core nobles should hate the Tinshore nobles who abandoned them to die, but apparently not.

Even if they didn't hate them they should want them gone so they could take their lands and wealth sources for their own families, but apparently not.

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Given the previous issue with the Mine Lords, the issue is more of "precedent consciousness", where they're aware that anything done to the Tinshoreians can be done to them. "If they can be punished for making the wrong decision, so can I", etc.

Also, likely, a matter of expectations if, as Godwinson (I think realistically) points out, raising taxes is a more typical punishment, while purging is completely atypical. The latter makes them very scared, and limits their support.

(Not that I think your points are off-base. Maybe the hatred isn't so visible to us?)

Ymaryn was in a fight for its life. There was no guarantee that it would survive this war. A silent rebellion would do nothing at that point, there was no time to play double agent. They either help, or do nothing. They turned their back on us.

They are all guilty

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This is, whether intentionally or unintentionally, great roleplay.

But, the possibility of reduced culpability wasn't predicated on a "silent rebellion". The idea is that the Governor is more responsible than his subordinates, and also that the Governor's decision made it so that not-going-along-with-it was impractical.

 

[Aranfan]

The fact that our nobility seems to have a fully developed class consciousness, instead of hating each other only slightly less than they hate everybody else, is the truly baffling part in all this. By any normal criteria, our Core nobles should hate the Tinshore nobles who abandoned them to die, but apparently not.

Even if they didn't hate them they should want them gone so they could take their lands and wealth sources for their own families, but apparently not.

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There is a reason it results in -3 Influence rather than a noble rebellion. In theory, the higher taxes will fall on the traitor nobles. But Rhys is an admin hero and is able to figure out how they'll shift it onto the commoners.

 

[Oshha]

The fact that our nobility seems to have a fully developed class consciousness, instead of hating each other only slightly less than they hate everybody else, is the truly baffling part in all this. By any normal criteria, our Core nobles should hate the Tinshore nobles who abandoned them to die, but apparently not.

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It isn't so much a matter of class, but them disliking the precedents that could be used against them. They don't care about the traitors that the punishment is being used on, they care that the punishment is different to what they expected (raised taxes) and could potentially be turned on them in the future as it now exists an acceptable punishment with precedent. Just because they haven't committed treason and are unlikely to do so doesn't change that there will be precedent of punishing the nobility by sending them into half-exile and replacing them with commoners.

No aristocracy in history would be happy with the idea that the king could replace them en masse with the non-nobility. They are supposed to be special and step above the common masses and they dislike the idea that this isn't true. If we were replacing the traitors with other nobility, I doubt they would be so opposed, especially since they would most likely be that other nobility. But we are replacing them with the local non-nobles so they dislike that.

 

[065tdsa]

Given the previous issue with the Mine Lords, the issue is more of "precedent consciousness", where they're aware that anything done to the Tinshoreians can be done to them. "If they can be punished for making the wrong decision, so can I," etc.

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Well yes, but they are never going to betray the kingdom to the Great Khan (what with the Great Khan being gone) so why would they worry about it?

No aristocracy in history would be happy with the idea that the king could replace them en masse with the non-nobility. They are supposed to be special and step above the common masses and they dislike the idea that this isn't true.

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But that's because the whole idea that the replacements for the Tinshore nobles are non-nobility is stupid. It makes more sense to source them from the families of the Core nobles, who are educated for the job and can take it as a massive bribe to stop complaining about it too.

 

[Aranfan]

It makes more sense to source them from the families of the Core nobles.

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Insufficient nobles. Try again in a generation or two.

 

[Oshha]

Well yes, but that's because the whole idea that the replacements for the Tinshore nobles are non-nobility is stupid. It makes more sense to source them from the families of the Core nobles.

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I would personally put it down to the numbers of the core nobility still being too low after the losses incurred against the Great Khan.

Edit: Blackbirded by the QM.

 

[ALanos]

Problem is that doesn't make sense. Our nobles aren't idiots, they know taxes hurt only the commoners, who didn't actually make any decisions, and leave the actual traitors unscathed. Taxes also don't allow our nobles a chance to steal the wealth of the traitor nobles for themselves, which is something of perpetual interest to the upper classes in most nations.

The fact that they oppose a real punishment (that would also happen to benefit them directly) against the people who left them to die can only be explained by the Ymaryn nobility's perpetual penchant to do whatever is most inconvenient to us - which to be fair is PoC canon.

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I'm sure the loyal nobles would think that the commoners and nobles of Tinshore should just work harder because to have arete must mean you can bounce off of this and if not too bad and starve. Do remember that Ymaryn culture is horribly elitist and if we raise taxes then we are just putting the commoners down even more because they don't have the inherent greatness in them to suceed we are ruled by the atistocracy after all.

 

[065tdsa]

All I can say is that nobody should ever complain about something as logically obvious as exceptional crimes, like treason, carrying an exceptional punishment. Least of all the people who suffered due to said treason.

I'm sure the loyal nobles would think that the commoners and nobles of Tinshore should just work harder because to have arete must mean you can bounce off of this and if not too bad and starve. Do remember that Ymaryn culture is horribly elitist and if we raise taxes then we are just putting the commoners down even more because they don't have the inherent greatness in them to suceed we are ruled by the atistocracy after all.

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Traitors have no greatness. If they had it they wouldn't have betrayed us. Why would anyone treat them like they are even the same species as our nobles?

 

[Aranfan]

Insufficient nobles. Try again in a generation or two.

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You are so low on noble manpower that sending experts over to help another society reform their bureaucracy gives -5 to all other rolls. Any really functional bureaucracy should be able to do that without issue. Y'all are still barely holding on. The commoner officers is basically the only reason you have survived the wars in Txolla and Hathytta.

 

[OliWhail]

@Aranfan the discussion of loyalist vs khanist nobles has me wondering. Are there surviving imprisoned or (half-)exile Core loyalists in Tinshore, or who fled Tinshore, who could be raised up and given land/power back?

 

[Aranfan]

Are there surviving imprisoned or (half-)exile Core loyalists in Tinshore, or who fled Tinshore, who could be raised up and given land/power back?

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Maybe? If you find any you'll certainly put them high up on the hierarchy.

 

[ALanos]

All I can say is that nobody should ever complain about something as logically obvious as exceptional crimes, like treason, carrying an exceptional punishment. Least of all the people who suffered due to said treason.

Traitors have no greatness. If they had it they wouldn't have betrayed us. Why would anyone treat them like they are even the same species as our nobles?

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While traitors should receive no mercy the reason we are punishing all nobles in Tinshore and getting a bit of backlash is that it is handing over the precedent of extinguishing entire noble lines if they don't obviously and vigorously support the monarchy. That kind of precedent scares them if they don't condemn the traitor fast enough then they will get affected too by association. Lastly, they are both lords and vassals, and as vassals they should have given their services freely while we defended them but they did not so a purge will be conducted because they're either the main instigators or associating with traitors.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

Well yes, but they are never going to betray the kingdom to the Great Khan (what with the Great Khan being gone) so why would they worry about it?

But that's because the whole idea that the replacements for the Tinshore nobles are non-nobility is stupid. It makes more sense to source them from the families of the Core nobles, who are educated for the job and can take it as a massive bribe to stop complaining about it too.

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Like, ten years ago we just faced a noblility shortage that required us to promote commoners to nobility in the core.

The war GUTTED our nobility, as second sons and daughters served in the war an died.

 

[Sivantic]

This is, whether intentionally or unintentionally, great roleplay.

But, the possibility of reduced culpability wasn't predicated on a "silent rebellion". The idea is that the Governor is more responsible than his subordinates, and also that the Governor's decision made it so that not-going-along-with-it was impractical.

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Again, this was the point when Ymaryn was about to burn to the ground. They either do something, or let it burn into the ground. Our Nobility is our Administration, they all have people under them that answer to them, that are either part of our mercenary corp or part of the levy. Our core nobility are all almost gone despite our Core being the safest part of all Ymaryn. There was no guarantee that they would survive, but Lord's Loyalty was clear.