Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Unfortunately, it isn't something we can try to use internationally since anyone actually buying it could provoke the Khem into going to war.
It's impossible to avoid spreading this to the diplomats that are part of the King's court.
Keep raising opinion via trade deals until we regain access to Cholera Cure and Sacred Warding; use them to raise opinion even more. This will help to show we're in their corner.
We can and will take Intrigue actions to support the Khemetri pro-Ymaryn factions, and to give pre-warning of any issues.
(And finally, absolutely do not take pointless acts of revenge like selling their enemies guns when we don't actually need the cash. Do not tank our chances of bridging this gap out of temporarily-wounded pride.)
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I oppose this plan of harming the Ymaryn out of some desire to appease our rivals so we can befriend them at the expense of our own people. Our concerns should be the interests of our own people, not the interests of our enemies and the Khem have made it clear that they consider themselves our opponents.
Friendship with the Khem is not worth hurting our own interests when they consider themselves our rivals and act like they are our rivals.
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The Khem consider us an rival because we have caused damage to them inconsiderately. They fear our future actions. Assuaging those fears is not a tall order.
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This is distinct from the way you worded it:
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On the other hand, also in recent memory is our attempt to make amends with the 1608 trade deal. So they give some consideration in case closer ties are possible. (4/10 opinion now)
We can either live up to that possibility, or piss all over it out of pride.
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This is distinct from the way you worded it:
implies that they take "being the Ymaryn's opponents" as a matter of identity. They weren't rivals at first, even with our conflicting trade interests.
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Edit in response to the edit:
Right now, our screwing over of the Khem is in recent memory, so they don't give many considerations to us. (3/10 opinion at first)
On the other hand, also in recent memory is our attempt to make amends with the 1608 trade deal. So they give some consideration in case closer ties are possible. (4/10 opinion now)
We can either live up to that possibility, or piss all over it out of pride.
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There is one problem which might complicate things.
We are a competitor for trade, one that could devastate their economy simply by being deemed a better person to trade with, which is not something we could assuage easily, or possibly even practically...
Memories are short; if the Ymaryn have supported them when needed and been good trade partners for, say, a century, the possibility of things being otherwise would have completely faded away. (It may even take less time.)
This, too, happened in canon: despite being competitors in trade, the Khem were so firmly in our corner that it didn't matter. They would give us simple requests when needed, and satisfying most of them showed we had their interests at heart. (The major difference was that said trust was after several decades of improving their relationship; it remains to see whether the current playerbase has that long-term patience.)
I doubt anybody's dreaming of conquering the Khem.
Addendum: Sorry, I kind of glossed over this line of thought. The summary is that this actually works well for continued Khem relations, if played correctly.
Say that the Ymaryn do end up being "better persons to trade with" and all trade goes to us (an extreme case). But say, at the same time, the Ymaryn also open up trade to the Khem at very fair rates.
Then, the loss of direct trade is made up through trade with the Ymaryn as an intermediary. Furthermore, it ties Khem's interests closer to us, because they don't want that trade to be disrupted in any way. Internal factions would balk at any action that makes the Ymaryn unhappy. (To the point of, in Paths of Industrialization, voluntarily ending slavery because the Ymaryn don't like it... though that's a result of many other policies as well.)
This leads to closer ties through increased dependence.
(Of course, people don't like dependence and are watchful for it. However, this dependence is one that grows, a little at a time, over decades or centuries. A long-term view sees Khem irrevocably within our corner, while a short-term view sees them accepting every small increase.)
This process has already been happening. We got +0.3 income from Kus for being "better people to trade with", which allows us to make trade deals with Khem for very fair rates, so that Khem comes to us as an intermediary (+1 Opinion). In the future, if they declare war, they lose all that trade, so they're less likely to do so. Keep continuing this playbook, and others open up, until finally war with us is unthinkable.
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I don't think you realize how connected the not!Levant and not!Armenia Minor (the bit where the Highland Kingdom is) are with both Anatolia and Mesopotamia. It was a major goal of the first empire on record and the Levant has spent most of its history as the territory of empires who held Anatolia or Mesopotamia or both (and for most of the remainder it has been held by empires based in Egypt). There's a reason why between Northern Iraq and Syria there is a continuum of language and food culture that goes back to when Goebekli Tepe was still an active site of worship.
It is because this is all part of ONE geographical region, ONE economic zone, ONE cultural zone - it is all the fertile crescent.
So far the Ymaryn empire has been so stable, so isolationist, so awesomely powerful that it has been able to laugh at natural boundaries. (Though of course the real reason for the lack of natural frontiers is due to the maps changing - but however we feel about the map change, the truth is that they have and the Ymaryn now have very odd borders relative to the rocks under their feet). The only natural boundary the Ymaryn empire has reached is the not!Black Sea thalassocracy. The front on which we are furthest from our natural frontiers is on the Levantine front.
So we are a long way from our natural boundaries, we also have a revanchist problem, we will always need income, we will always need to address our 3-sea strategic quandary. So right now giving up land to fall back on our borders is suicide, and expanding TO our natural borders will bring us to the canal zone and put the entire Iraq-to-Syria branch of the Silk Road in our hands to the great benefit of trade.
(Of course, Khem need to control the Levant as well, because them expanding to THEIR natural borders involves a Khem thalassocracy over the Eastern Med. This is one reason why my ideal solution to this natural boundary problem would be a customs union and cooperation with Khem, but I'm not sure how the Ymaryn would come up with that in-world and even if they did, I am not sure how they could sell the idea to Khem.)
Sure, a canal is at least 500 years away. But a wagon-way along the canal route would be insanely valuable in this time period.
I think our actions over the famine speeded up the rivalry starting with Khem, but we were always in a race between jacking up relations before Khem started thinking of us as enemies and them deciding that a powerful Ymaryn empire was not in their interest. We lost the race. That sucks. But let's be honest, Khem have excellent reasons for thinking why their lives would be better/easier without a powerful Ymaryn empire around. And the King of the Hill mechanics mean that we just have to exist and be powerful to make trouble for them.
And because the game mechanics will put Khem on a warpath with us any time they are doing well, I am pessimistic that we can forge a real friendship with them.
I suspect that instead this will need to be a rivalry we manage.
fasquardon
but if we're not going to work towards not having them be rival that is the only option for peace.
The best part is this deal in no way actually reduces our power. I think a Khem 40 prestige higher than us will accept Khem positive trade deals. I too want to see what happens when we are high opinion rivals.
Um. No. We can also just accept that they will stay a rival and do our best to maintain working relations while not holding unrealistic expectations about our ability to woo Khem without an external power like the Sketch threatening us both as happened in PoI.
Or we help Berba and Abys rise at the expense of Khem until the Khem are too weak to continue going REEEE at us over being king of the hill.
Elect a Khem king if they govern in accordance with the laws and customs of The People? If we can do that I'd certainly be willing to consider it.
Could be a way to get my dream of a proto-EU and a proto-NATO to fill up our natural frontiers without having to go on a conquest spree.
fasquardon
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't think anybody has advocated that we conquer them as far as I can tell.
Actually, we can use our soft power to limit their ability to threaten with us. We can use a spy network and a report on their internal factions to find out where to hurt those opposed to us and support those friendly to us. Either we hurt them enough internally that their ability to threaten us is limited due to domestic concerns or we get a friendly government taking them over.
I also doubt that the Khem will stop being our rivals without something changing that we aren't direct competiors because right now we are and I don't like this plan of hurting ourselves enough that the Khem start thinking that we won't prioritise our own people over the Khem's interests.
I doubtful we will be able to something that diplomatic complex until a different era.
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I would say what you just described is using soft power to influence the Khem to our interests and that is different than just being a typical rival in this time period.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And I am not opposed to that. I am opposed to befriending the Khem by deciding to assuage their fears of having conflicting interests by deciding to hurt our own people by prioritising the interests of the Khem over those of our the Ymaryn people.
Quite frankly, militarily dealing the Khem is off the table. And long term solution is going to by soft power, but soft power isn't just repeatedly rolling over to the enemy.
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There's no need for us to develop a rivalry like the English versus France. This serves no discernible benefit for either nations as far as I am aware and increase the threat of a Khem invasion.
Which actions are these? Unfavorable trade deal and Spread the Warding action?
Which actions are these? Unfavorable trade deal and Spread the Warding action?
I don't know if that is the argument that is being made. The idea is to increase their opinion so that we have more influence over them or so they arent as belligerent.
The Canal of the Pharaohs, which is actually technically feasible to dig in this time period, doesn't go anywhere near Suez, its entire length is deep within Khemetri territory and it's of no benefit to us. Once we take over Western Wall we'll control all of the overland Silk Road routes again, so fostering sea trade with the east through Khemetri actually hurts us.
Admittedly in the long term eastern sea trade is inevitable, and at that point we will want a proper Suez Canal, but that will need ridiculous amounts of manpower and probably some innovations in ditch digging to make it go faster.
Our problem with the Khemetri is they are jealous of a position of power that they can in no way maintain in the face of a unified Ymaryn Empire, simply because it is bigger. Once we unify there'll probably be some hostility as they gradually come to accept that no, they can't do anything about it. This is a process that will take centuries and is best left to happen in its own time while we mind our business and look to the north.
Our future is up north, Amber Road, preempting not!Russia and the steppes. No point worrying over Khemetri until they get over their onesided rivalry.
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I am talking about technological and social changes. With an empire now as open as well stable, we might arguably advance the timeline faster than where Earth at in the 1200s-1300s.